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Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? #2086095
06/04/16 11:01 PM
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So the application is a turbo slant six, under 300hp, never will see the drag strip, likely never will get north of 5k RPM. a QT scattershield from Summit is nearly $800. I will likely get a custom SFI rated alum FW/pressure plate set-up. I have an alum OEM bellhousing. CF/Kevlar is not a hassle for me. Anybody think adding say a 1/4"? outside/bonded Kevlar/CF to the complete outside of the OEM housing make any sense? Has to be better then nothing. Lot cheaper then the QT, and then spend the savings on the FW/clutch. Well?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086100
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Not sure why you would need more than the AL bell housing? No strip, under 300 HP, under 5000 RPM.

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086110
06/04/16 11:38 PM
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Sounds like a waste òf time and money to me shruggy I also have to question the aluminium flywheel as well in this application. I would think a steel flywheel with a counterweight pressure plate and iron disc would do the trick.
Gus beer


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086122
06/05/16 12:07 AM
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You can use a trans blanket,would be less expensive.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086128
06/05/16 12:20 AM
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Do it, test it to failure. Get an sfi rating, go into business and become filthy rich by giving them a 2 year from date of manufacture expiration.

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: ahy] #2086268
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Originally Posted By ahy
Not sure why you would need more than the AL bell housing? No strip, under 300 HP, under 5000 RPM.

I agree, the need is minimal if at all, more likely a little more peace of mind, without spending $800.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #2086271
06/05/16 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
Sounds like a waste òf time and money to me shruggy I also have to question the aluminium flywheel as well in this application. I would think a steel flywheel with a counterweight pressure plate and iron disc would do the trick.
Gus beer

Not the first time I have heard that before. grin Alum flywheel is thinking because its a 76?lb crank, no drar launch needed, and it may see some AutoX, hence my alum thinking.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: hemi-itis] #2086274
06/05/16 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted By hemi-itis
You can use a trans blanket,would be less expensive.

Interesting, but not sure if I have clearance, easily, and curious how it secures on the most sloped portion of the bellhousing where a flywheel would likely radiate thru, in a failure. Has this been done before? work


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: Bill MeLater] #2086275
06/05/16 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted By Bill MeLater
Do it, test it to failure. Get an sfi rating, go into business and become filthy rich by giving them a 2 year from date of manufacture expiration.


I need to get even richer, think I can lobby for a shorter 1 year expiration for the sake of "safety"? biggrin


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086285
06/05/16 11:48 AM
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Sounds like you have access to the C/F cheap or free
so I would do it... is it needed.. doubt it but sure
would be a good test... the hood on my car I built
out of C/F.. sure did make it lighter(and no one made
anything for that car)
wave

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086288
06/05/16 11:52 AM
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Unless you use the 3.09:1 box, or a very high (numerical) axle, the light flywheel will require you to drive it like a 2-stroke. Not fun in traffic.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2086294
06/05/16 11:57 AM
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My supplies are not free unfortunately, but certainly cost effective. Three things I still would like to figure out, what does a steel QT housing weigh, so I can see if I am getting any weight benefits, what temps is the housing likely to see from internal heat vs external exhaust, which I can shield ( need this to make sure I use correct epoxy), and then how am I going to contain and fasten the open bottom?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: polyspheric] #2086296
06/05/16 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted By polyspheric
Unless you use the 3.09:1 box, or a very high (numerical) axle, the light flywheel will require you to drive it like a 2-stroke. Not fun in traffic.


Yes, I am very hesitant on this choice, but I need a custom flywheel, to get the rating, and the torgue rating for a better clutch set-up, car is headed towards 2500lbs, with a short tire 23"?, of course the turbo, but it will have 2.76, and you are correct, very street focused, eek I'm thinking. work


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086300
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I assume you will vac this thing(all the light weight
C/F parts have a vac applied to pull out all the extra resin)
once the vac is applied the part tends to stay in place
wave

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2086311
06/05/16 12:24 PM
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Yes, it will be bagged.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086352
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Take pics as you go. I'd like to see what your up to.

All I can add is if you blow a flywheel up I don't think a little carbon is going to slow it down.

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: FastmOp] #2086380
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Originally Posted By FastmOp
Take pics as you go. I'd like to see what your up to.

All I can add is if you blow a flywheel up I don't think a little carbon is going to slow it down.


Even on the chevy stuff that uses a flywheel shield
which is basically 1/8" steel they use the grade 8
bolts to slow it down or hold it in... the shield I
looked at looked like it was mild steel.. I could be
wrong on that part... but it sure wasnt thick
wave

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086391
06/05/16 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted By jcc
Originally Posted By fourgearsavoy
Sounds like a waste òf time and money to me shruggy I also have to question the aluminium flywheel as well in this application. I would think a steel flywheel with a counterweight pressure plate and iron disc would do the trick.
Gus beer

Not the first time I have heard that before. grin Alum flywheel is thinking because its a 76?lb crank, no drar launch needed, and it may see some AutoX, hence my alum thinking.

Well that's the theory of the aluminium wheel recovering faster between gear changes. As soon as the clutch releases the disc from the clutch/flywheel under load it zings back up instantly to your 5000 RPM sweet spot.
Gus beer


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086419
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Originally Posted By jcc
So the application is a turbo slant six, under 300hp, never will see the drag strip, likely never will get north of 5k RPM. a QT scattershield from Summit is nearly $800. I will likely get a custom SFI rated alum FW/pressure plate set-up. I have an alum OEM bellhousing. CF/Kevlar is not a hassle for me. Anybody think adding say a 1/4"? outside/bonded Kevlar/CF to the complete outside of the OEM housing make any sense? Has to be better then nothing. Lot cheaper then the QT, and then spend the savings on the FW/clutch. Well?
I like the idea. Containment is the big question. How about 3/8" thick? Sure would help address space / linkage issues that accompany blankets and steel shields.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086446
06/05/16 03:14 PM
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Another option would be to get a copy of the adapter plate Mark Goodman used to make and then find a used small block shield. That also allows you to use the 130 tooth flywheel, but puts the starter in the low position.

Lou (Dart 270) on the Slant board has the one I had made. I think he would loan it out so you could copy it.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: slantzilla] #2086466
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Originally Posted By slantzilla
Another option would be to get a copy of the adapter plate Mark Goodman used to make and then find a used small block shield. That also allows you to use the 130 tooth flywheel, but puts the starter in the low position.

Lou (Dart 270) on the Slant board has the one I had made. I think he would loan it out so you could copy it.


Wish you hadn't suggested that. tsk laugh2

That's really the right direction I should be going, solves a lot of other issues down the road. work


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086524
06/05/16 05:51 PM
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Bullet proof vests don't use just a handful of layers. I don't know how much your supplies would cost but 30+ layers of kevlar plus epoxy around a bell means material costs beyond $100 for me. So I think the trans blanket suggestion was a good one, unless you really want to get the experience.

If you worked for an exotic car mfr (front engine/trans) and they wanted something more classy than a blanket I think this is a really good idea. You could even take it to the firing range and put a small caliber bullet through it as a simulation. I wouldn't bother with the carbon fiber.

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086536
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Have you considered armoring the tunnel and floor (inside or out) instead of the BH? If the pieces can't reach you who cares where they go.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086893
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I have said this many times before, if you had seen what happened, and what was left of a carbon fiber shield from a tranny that blew up in Eddyville in '13, you wouldn't even think of anything fiber. He almost lost a foot! That shield did NOTHING. Let me repeat that, it did nothing.

The way every body tries to fit a trans blanket, they don't work either. The trick is to put it over the trans, and wrap the ends around the torsion bars. You may need one simple brace to keep it off the headers on the driver side.

Think about this, at the track, I bet flywheels have killed more people than you'd would ever care to hear about. And some of those were in the stands.

Best of luck to you.

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: Scott440] #2086941
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Originally Posted By Scott440
Bullet proof vests don't use just a handful of layers. I don't know how much your supplies would cost but 30+ layers of kevlar plus epoxy around a bell means material costs beyond $100 for me. So I think the trans blanket suggestion was a good one, unless you really want to get the experience.

If you worked for an exotic car mfr (front engine/trans) and they wanted something more classy than a blanket I think this is a really good idea. You could even take it to the firing range and put a small caliber bullet through it as a simulation. I wouldn't bother with the carbon fiber.


I hoping I can size/pre cut my fabric to prevent as much waste as possible. You are correct, enough layers to do the job will certaintly be more then a handfull.

Your comment on bypassing the CF instills me to ask your reasoning. My thinking, the OEM housing is over 1/4"+- alum, my first layers would be CF, as increasing the overall strength of the alum housing from failure, would be first goal in the event of an explosion, CF is close to stiffness of alum, plus it would likely slightly dampen the alum, and to a lessor degree, maybe protect the following added layers of kelvar, from any arising sharp edges of cracked/broken alum protruding outward. The problem with that scenario is, most of the CF I has seen that failed, has its own sharp edges. My understanding of Kelvar, besides its general robust strength, is its resistant to tearing/cutting, but it can be cut, so sharp edges are to be avoided. Then I was thinking another outside final layer again of CF, since the outside layer would be the first to fail from stress, in an explosion. I also pondered adding a thin form-able layer inside of a SS liner. I'm also thinking I'm talking myself into calling Summit. But that wouldn't be any fun. shock


PS "SportF", this ever saw the drag strip or higher powers, this idea would not be considered, and I cannot see it can do any harm, other then my wallet, nor am I trying to mislead others to follow this path.
"Poly", reinforcing the tunnel, would not protect nearby fuel lines, brake lines, tires, bystandersrs, etc

Last edited by jcc; 06/06/16 11:57 AM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2086964
06/06/16 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted By jcc
Originally Posted By Scott440
Bullet proof vests don't use just a handful of layers. I don't know how much your supplies would cost but 30+ layers of kevlar plus epoxy around a bell means material costs beyond $100 for me. So I think the trans blanket suggestion was a good one, unless you really want to get the experience.

If you worked for an exotic car mfr (front engine/trans) and they wanted something more classy than a blanket I think this is a really good idea. You could even take it to the firing range and put a small caliber bullet through it as a simulation. I wouldn't bother with the carbon fiber.


I hoping I can size/pre cut my fabric to prevent as much waste as possible. You are correct, enough layers to do the job will certaintly be more then a handfull.

Your comment on bypassing the CF instills me to ask your reasoning. My thinking, the OEM housing is over 1/4"+- alum, my first layers would be CF, as increasing the overall strength of the alum housing from failure, would be first goal in the event of an explosion, CF is close to stiffness of alum, plus it would likely slightly dampen the alum, and to a lessor degree, maybe protect the following added layers of kelvar, from any arising sharp edges of cracked/broken alum protruding outward. The problem with that scenario is, most of the CF I has seen that failed, has its own sharp edges. My understanding of Kelvar, besides its general robust strength, is its resistant to tearing/cutting, but it can be cut, so sharp edges are to be avoided. Then I was thinking another outside final layer again of CF, since the outside layer would be the first to fail from stress, in an explosion. I also pondered adding a thin form-able layer inside of a SS liner. I'm also thinking I'm talking myself into calling Summit. But that wouldn't be any fun. shock


PS "SportF", this ever saw the drag strip or higher powers, this idea would not be considered, and I cannot see it can do any harm, other then my wallet, nor am I trying to mislead others to follow this path.
"Poly", reinforcing the tunnel, would not protect nearby fuel lines, brake lines, tires, bystandersrs, etc
I can attest to the last line above. I do like "sport F's" suggestion of attaching a blanket to the torsion bars. Will look at doing that. Might help with my existing blanket / trans linkage clearance issues that I have.


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Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: SportF] #2086974
06/06/16 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted By SportF
I have said this many times before, if you had seen what happened, and what was left of a carbon fiber shield from a tranny that blew up in Eddyville in '13, you wouldn't even think of anything fiber. He almost lost a foot! That shield did NOTHING. Let me repeat that, it did nothing.

The way every body tries to fit a trans blanket, they don't work either. The trick is to put it over the trans, and wrap the ends around the torsion bars. You may need one simple brace to keep it off the headers on the driver side.

Think about this, at the track, I bet flywheels have killed more people than you'd would ever care to hear about. And some of those were in the stands.

Best of luck to you.


You dont want a blanket tight... you want them to
stretch and absorb the energy... the C/F shields that
are SFI approved are there for a reason... the trans
itself helps slow the energy then the shield helps it
even more.. and they arent thick... you want things to
stretch to eat up the energy
EDIT
On a 727 if you break the sprag anything over 6200 rpm
will blow the drum.... based on the 2.2 times faster than
the engine rpm and based on testing that 13,000 rpm will
rip it apart.. and we know MOST people turn more than 6200
rpm.... but if you dont do stupid stuff you wont blow the
drum.. NEVER get out of it and get back on it if the sprag
is broke.. that extra distance will roll over the ramps...
if you get out of it SHIFT... low is when the sprag is engaged
granted in this post its a manual trans
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 06/06/16 12:45 PM.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: Scott440] #2086988
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Originally Posted By Scott440
Bullet proof vests don't use just a handful of layers. I don't know how much your supplies would cost but 30+ layers of kevlar plus epoxy around a bell means material costs beyond $100 for me. So I think the trans blanket suggestion was a good one, unless you really want to get the experience.

If you worked for an exotic car mfr (front engine/trans) and they wanted something more classy than a blanket I think this is a really good idea. You could even take it to the firing range and put a small caliber bullet through it as a simulation. I wouldn't bother with the carbon fiber.


The vest that SAVED my life was a solid 3/4"carbon
fiber... the chopper crews wore them(most of the guys
sat on them... they were heavy and had just a front and
back with velcro straps to hold it on... I was hit in
the chest with part of a B-40 rocket... it blew me back
about 15' and I hit a guy behind me and I broke his nose..
a couple other parts got me.. one in the shoulder and one
in the side... but I walked away and still kept fighting
till I could be choppered out.. then the chopper was shot
down(about 60' up) but we all got out before they hit it
with a mortar round...C/F is STRONG stuff.... if I would
have had a normal vest on(the army style) I wouldnt be here
wave

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #2096121
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I'm ending the project. I'm chickening out. After prepping the the used alum 50? year old housing, on close inspection there seems to be an awful lot of minute casting? cracks. When I started I dismissed them as casting lines, but after grinding away some threaded unneeded bosses, and discovering numerous porosity inclusions, I looked closer at the casting lines, my suspicion, they are from thermal cooling shock when cast, or something, they don't look to be always in use stress related, although some do. Bottom line, not worth trying to make a safe silk purse out of a pigs ear. I'll get the QT bellhousing, save my efforts for something else. Below are a couple of pics on my added lower cover retaining holes. I also under stand there are few if any good methods to locate cracks in alum. Is this a rarity what I am seeing, or common?

bell bottom.jpgIbell crack_edited-1.jpgbell crack 2_edited-1.jpgbell crack 4.jpg
Last edited by jcc; 06/22/16 11:14 AM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: jcc] #2096229
06/22/16 02:11 PM
06/22/16 02:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
FastmOp Offline
master
FastmOp  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
Granger has a nice spray can Kit that works great.

https://m.grainger.com/mobile/product/SPOTCHECK-Penetrant-3WU63

Re: Kevlar/CF laminating an OEM Alum manual bellhousing, Crazy? [Re: FastmOp] #2096288
06/22/16 03:54 PM
06/22/16 03:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
Dye penetrant testing will find the surface cracks. Magnaflux makes a kit, looks like the Grainger kit is similar. Zyglow is kind of cool, the penetrant glows under UV light.

The cracks you have circled are indeed from the casting process. They're not at all unusual. The case is adequate for its intended use, as are most things Chrysler. They had the attitude that if a racer need something specialized he'd get it. Those cracks are perfectly fine for driving to the beach or Love Shack in your "Chrysler as big as a whale" that "seats about twenty".

Yeah! Love Shack Baby!

R.

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