Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068247
05/06/16 12:49 PM
05/06/16 12:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,551 Norwich CT USA
moparts
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I Live Here
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Norwich CT USA
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Check the block for lifter clearance at full lift, some blocks need clearance ground . And a cam button is recommended
The old MP cams seemed to work fine in the old day.
But a now a regular mech cam has as much lift/duration as the old mushroom cams
Tom ,
2011 Ram 3500 C&C Diesel 2009 Challenger R/T 1971 Challenger Conv. 511/4 speed 1970 Challenger R/T 503/727
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068252
05/06/16 12:56 PM
05/06/16 12:56 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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I never had to turn the engine over to install them. As a matter of fact 35 years ago I installed a Mopar 695 lift mushroom tappet with the engine in the car. I made up a rounded U-shaped piece of thin aluminium and slid it in the cam tunnel. Them starting with the rear lifters I slid them to the rear of the block and fished then up into the lifter bores with my fingers and a small screwdriver. As I got each one up in the bore I held them up into place with my Mothers cloth pins, slid the cam in, and removed the cloth pins. My 69 dart ran 10.20's with that cam, stock cam and rods, and 906 heads back when 10.20's were pretty dog-gone quick. Pretty cheap way to go fast.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068374
05/06/16 04:46 PM
05/06/16 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I think I'd be inclined to stick with using more "commonly available" parts.
The question that comes to mind is, are you trying to achieve something that you don't feel you could do with a traditional flat tappet cam? Perhaps some rules in place where roller cams aren't allowed?
Are mushroom lifters still readily available? What kind of $$$$ are they?
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: 451Mopar]
#2068404
05/06/16 05:35 PM
05/06/16 05:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,839 NW Indiana
fbs63
top fuel
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top fuel
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NW Indiana
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I always thought the lifter bores needed to be spot faced on the bottom for mushroom tappets?
Last edited by fbs63; 05/06/16 05:37 PM.
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: fbs63]
#2068459
05/06/16 07:18 PM
05/06/16 07:18 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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I always thought the lifter bores needed to be spot faced on the bottom for mushroom tappets? My 440 block didn't but I tend to spend a few days deburing and grinding on my engine blocks before assembly and like I said mine was only around 695 or so lift
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068493
05/06/16 09:26 PM
05/06/16 09:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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West Plains, MO
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I've put my 451 together with that cam and hand-ported iron heads. My block did not need any machining. I've read that if you float the valves you could be in big trouble because the lifter will smack the underside of the lifter bore area and could break something if there is not a smooth back-spotfaced area for it to hit. I'd be ecstatic with 10's of any kind! As I posted elsewhere this is a used set and I'm getting more nervous as startup time approaches. I think I'll pull it out and buy a brand new cam/lifters if I can find the B/RB package (P3690588). The question that comes to mind is, are you trying to achieve something that you don't feel you could do with a traditional flat tappet cam? More lift with a given duration compared to most solid cams. Although more modern grinds with higher lift rates are available nowadays, I would be less concerned about lifter wear on a 1.00" mushroom compared to the standard .904" diameter.
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: DrCharles]
#2068498
05/06/16 09:49 PM
05/06/16 09:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,174
PA.
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I honestly think it was a great idea at the time so many years ago. If I had one laying here I wouldn't be afraid to use it. Heck I'm still holding on to a few of my old 286 duration @.050 750 lift roller cams that we stepped up to after running that cam. They didn't require the CRAZY spring pressure that we run on cams now and our parts lasted forever.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068503
05/06/16 10:01 PM
05/06/16 10:01 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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The maximum lift per degree of rotation is a function of tappet diameter. A .970" (a common size) can be bigger & faster than a .904". Now obsolete, only useful where rules prohibit a roller.
How old is it? .970" is the tappet diameter of the Ford Model T.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: fbs63]
#2068548
05/06/16 10:48 PM
05/06/16 10:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Romeo MI
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I always thought the lifter bores needed to be spot faced on the bottom for mushroom tappets? They do need facing... I ran one years ago on a destroked 383 EDIT and its way easier to load the cam and lifters in it with it upside down
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 05/06/16 10:51 PM.
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068559
05/06/16 11:08 PM
05/06/16 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785 Utah and Alaska
astjp2
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Utah and Alaska
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My 1937 designed continental engine has mushroom lifters, they redesigned the cams in the late 40's and required the lifters to be changed. Steel cam, cast steel lifter, cast steel cam, steel lifters. screw it up and it wipes the lobes. Tim
1941 Taylorcraft 1968 Charger 1994 Wrangler 1998 Wrangler 2008 Kia Rio 2017 Jetta
I didn't do 4 years and 9 months of Graduate School to be called Mister!
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: DrCharles]
#2068613
05/07/16 12:24 AM
05/07/16 12:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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The question that comes to mind is, are you trying to achieve something that you don't feel you could do with a traditional flat tappet cam? More lift with a given duration compared to most solid cams. Although more modern grinds with higher lift rates are available nowadays, I would be less concerned about lifter wear on a 1.00" mushroom compared to the standard .904" diameter. I didn't mean tryng to achieve mechanically, I was asking if there was a performance goal in mind that wouldn't be able to be reached without going to a mushroom style cam.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2068660
05/07/16 01:32 AM
05/07/16 01:32 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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West Plains, MO
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I always thought the lifter bores needed to be spot faced on the bottom for mushroom tappets? They do need facing... I ran one years ago on a destroked 383 EDIT and its way easier to load the cam and lifters in it with it upside down Depends on how much casting flash there is along the underside of the lifter bore area. Mine and most other posters over the years (here on Moparts and other forums) did not require any block machining... Yep, it's easier to install with the block upside down and the crank removed. A bit tricky with the engine in the car though Somebody else on here did the same "half-pipe" trick inserted the length of the cam tunnel, but he used a magnet on a flexible stick that made it easier to drag the lifters to the proper bore. Don't forget it's quite a bit cheaper than buying a roller cam and a good set of roller lifters, too. My 1982 DC books claim "very close to roller cam performance at about half the cost". I'm set up for about 140# on the seat and 430# at full lift (.654 gross with the 1.5 rockers). That shouldn't be hard on parts and I'm not going to turn 7000+ anyway.
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: fast68plymouth]
#2068661
05/07/16 01:34 AM
05/07/16 01:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,220 West Plains, MO
DrCharles
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West Plains, MO
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I didn't mean tryng to achieve mechanically, I was asking if there was a performance goal in mind that wouldn't be able to be reached without going to a mushroom style cam. Ah. I see now... guess that will be up to the original poster And again it's a significant cost saver over a roller and not hard on parts with reasonable spring pressures, if you're willing to put up with the inconvenience of the mushrooms. Someday I'll have it going and report back!
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068663
05/07/16 01:42 AM
05/07/16 01:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,499 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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I Live Here
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How much cheaper than a roller is it really, if someone wanted to buy new parts today?
I don't think mushroom lifters for a mopar are all that common anymore, but I could be wrong.
In addition to that, there aren't nearly as many profiles available to choose from, and even less(if any) that have the benefit of Spintron developement.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068915
05/07/16 05:23 PM
05/07/16 05:23 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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master
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New York
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I don't think mushroom lifters for a mopar If you bush the tappet bores you can use any mushroom. BTW: an extreme example of "larger lobe contact surface with the same tappet body diameter": 1941-52 Harley-Davidson WR. Tappet is .731" OD, the "ice skate" (foot) is over an inch; note the asymmetry.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: MUSHROOM LIFTER CAM
[Re: A/MP]
#2068949
05/07/16 06:40 PM
05/07/16 06:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206 New York
polyspheric
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New York
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Assuming that the sliding forces can be dealt with, the maximum velocity of a flat tappet (which partially determines how much valve-open area you can “fit” into a specified cam duration) is roughly proportionate to the tappet’s contact surface length (not its area). The math: VM = (tappet diameter - .040”) ÷ 114.6 (.040” is a safety margin to prevent edge contact) Solving for common tappet diameters: .842" = .00700" lift per degree (GM) .875" = .00729" lift per degree (Ford) .904" = .00754" lift per degree (Chrysler, AMC) .921" = .00769" lift per degree (Olds diesel) .970" = .00812" lift per degree (mushroom) .990" = .00829" lift per degree (stock GMC L6) 1.220" = .0103" lift per degree (VW Type I 30mm replacement)
A .970" mushroom is about 7.7% greater than the Chrysler .904".
Important: a larger tappet has NO EFFECT on valve motion, it merely makes it possible to design into a new lobe.
Boffin Emeritus
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