How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
#2052360
04/11/16 11:58 PM
04/11/16 11:58 PM
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sgcuda
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With the quality of the metals these days, is a sleeve as strong, not as strong, or the same strength as a stock big block? If it's stronger, can you get away with sleeving a 440 block for 400 bore safely. Just thinking out of the box.
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2052526
04/12/16 02:18 AM
04/12/16 02:18 AM
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madscientist
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Depends on the sleeve. You can sleeves that are far better than OE cast iron, or you can get them just like OE cast iron.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2052619
04/12/16 10:14 AM
04/12/16 10:14 AM
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an8sec70cuda
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Kenny, when you figure the cost of sleeving all 8 cylinders w/ quality sleeves, plus all other associated machine work and parts...you're gonna wish you'd just started w/ an aftermarket block. I used to charge $125 labor per hole, plus decking, etc. Not to mention, sleeving one still does nothing to alleviate the problem w/ the BB mopar driving the mains out of stock blocks. Other than possibly saving a block w/ thin walls, you're not gaining anything.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2052705
04/12/16 12:41 PM
04/12/16 12:41 PM
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JohnRR
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With the quality of the metals these days, is a sleeve as strong, not as strong, or the same strength as a stock big block? If it's stronger, can you get away with sleeving a 440 block for 400 bore safely. Just thinking out of the box. This is confusing , 440 bore is 4.320 , 400 is 4.342 ? 400 is .022 over a 440 ? Sleeves are usually stronger than the block they are being put it. I think to be safe with a 4.400 bore you'd need to sleeve it so the O.D. of the bores are touching? As stated it's going to cost you $$$$ to do that to an old 440 block, it would be more cost effective to buy a Megablock.
running up my post count some more .
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2052791
04/12/16 02:46 PM
04/12/16 02:46 PM
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Polarapete
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Kenny, when you figure the cost of sleeving all 8 cylinders w/ quality sleeves, plus all other associated machine work and parts...you're gonna wish you'd just started w/ an aftermarket block. I used to charge $125 labor per hole, plus decking, etc. Not to mention, sleeving one still does nothing to alleviate the problem w/ the BB mopar driving the mains out of stock blocks. Other than possibly saving a block w/ thin walls, you're not gaining anything. I have a 1977 LA360 block that I was going to build for my truck, but it already is at .040 and #5 cylinder has two long grooves the length of the cylinder and probably will not clean up at .060 . I only paid $100.00 for the long block core with good big port iron heads and the truck oil pan, so I can afford to throw it out. Years ago I worked at a local Allis=Chalmers dealership as the parts manager and their engines all used sleeves and that is how you overhauled one of them when it was finally time for that.
1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction 1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver. 2008 Honda Element 2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2052956
04/12/16 06:36 PM
04/12/16 06:36 PM
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polyspheric
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There's a good chance that you're making your current block much more expensive before it begins to leak water, blow head gaskets, or explode.
BTW: you don't get anything like the same VE, torque or hp as: new size / old size = increase. E.g., 4.32" > 4.40" does not produce 3.7% more power.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2053159
04/12/16 11:03 PM
04/12/16 11:03 PM
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sgcuda
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Since my -1's have 2.25 intake valves, I was thinking that a 4.40 bore would be beneficial to help unshroud the airflow. I need to check out current prices at my local guy. I have a set of aluminum rods 6.7 long with SBC journals. Could offset grind almost any crank to give me decent stroke/displacement.
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2053517
04/13/16 10:51 AM
04/13/16 10:51 AM
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an8sec70cuda
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And you'll wind up w/ a ton of money in a stock block that will likely crack the main webs after a year or so. That's a lot of money for a minimal gain in power too...just unshrouding the valves a little. By the time you put aluminum caps on it and do all the other machining, you'll have as much in it as an aftermarket block but still be stuck w/ a grenade at your power level.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2053525
04/13/16 11:10 AM
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Additionally, I'd ONLY take it to someone who has successfully done this before. ..and I'd bet when you find that person they'll be OLD LOL. To those who say "no problem, other blocks are built with sleeves"...This doesn't translate because, those blocks are, BY DESIGN, engineered to utilize a sleeve. OR inherently may lend themselves BETTER to this process.
Last edited by HardcoreB; 04/13/16 11:17 AM.
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: fbs63]
#2053595
04/13/16 12:58 PM
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Stock eliminators usually use a larger bore block and sleeve it down. For example a 400 block sleeved to 383 bore size. You end up with a nice ridgid block because the cylinder wall thickness is INCREASED. Taking a 440 to 4.400 bore would take the majority of the original cylinder wall out. You would end up with a block that has no joining material between the cylinders. Not ideal for strength plus you have the stresses of 4 press fits. Boring it enough to clean up and relieve the cylinder walls at the top to aid flow will result in a much better engine. I agree. I was also asking why, and what his goal is. Ray
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2053900
04/13/16 10:10 PM
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I agree. I was also asking why, and what his goal is.
Ray
I wanted the extra cubes plus to unshroud my 2.25 intake valves that sit above a 4.380 bore already. I was thinking that there might be stronger materials available these days that would still allow the cylinders to have more strength than the original block I have. More worried about cracking a bore than cracking a web. Aluminum rods and aluminum caps should go a long way in protecting the bottom end. Final combination would be 4.40 bore by 4.40 stroke.
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2053981
04/13/16 11:54 PM
04/13/16 11:54 PM
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You could do a partial fill then have it bored for the bigger bore with sleeves. I say pour it first because that tend to shrink back a bit from the bores.. if you pour it first then have it sleeved it would be tight to give more support since your talking a bigger sleeve........ JMO EDIT Might even think a tall fill since its race only
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 04/13/16 11:57 PM.
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: HardcoreB]
#2054240
04/14/16 01:21 PM
04/14/16 01:21 PM
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I posted this question on Yellow bullet some time ago...maybe worth a look under same name. What I gathered is at best it's a cap shoot and many capable shops argued which method was best. You're loosing column strength doing all 8 which may be corrected by brazing it all together afterward. ..And I used the word maybe. I've been fixing many things in my years and I believe there is always a way to skin a cat. My conclusion is in agreement with some here...get a better block. I planned on skinning my cat with Siamese sleeves.
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: sgcuda]
#2054304
04/14/16 03:18 PM
04/14/16 03:18 PM
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A question that I stopped asking because: 1. I never got an answer 2. it clearly made the clerk/machinist uncomfortable
If the sleeve isn't flanged (very rare now) the only force holding the sleeve in place is a light press fit (not rosette welding, splines, pins etc.). Since the combustion pressure is at least 700 psi, what prevents gas pressure from forcing the sleeve down in the cylinder except the head gasket? How much clamping force do the bolts exert against the sleeve as opposed to the deck?
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: polyspheric]
#2054398
04/14/16 06:33 PM
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A question that I stopped asking because: 1. I never got an answer 2. it clearly made the clerk/machinist uncomfortable
If the sleeve isn't flanged (very rare now) the only force holding the sleeve in place is a light press fit (not rosette welding, splines, pins etc.). Since the combustion pressure is at least 700 psi, what prevents gas pressure from forcing the sleeve down in the cylinder except the head gasket? How much clamping force do the bolts exert against the sleeve as opposed to the deck? There should be a step at the bottom of the bore, that is what holds the sleeve from going lower, if there is no top flange ...
running up my post count some more .
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Re: How strong is a sleeve in a stock block?
[Re: JohnRR]
#2054475
04/14/16 07:30 PM
04/14/16 07:30 PM
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A question that I stopped asking because: 1. I never got an answer 2. it clearly made the clerk/machinist uncomfortable
If the sleeve isn't flanged (very rare now) the only force holding the sleeve in place is a light press fit (not rosette welding, splines, pins etc.). Since the combustion pressure is at least 700 psi, what prevents gas pressure from forcing the sleeve down in the cylinder except the head gasket? How much clamping force do the bolts exert against the sleeve as opposed to the deck? There should be a step at the bottom of the bore, that is what holds the sleeve from going lower, if there is no top flange ... The guy I talked too used top flange, a lip in the deck, the reason to deck after its done. He said it gives more area for head gasket and head to seal, stronger too. High nickel sleeves, much stronger then the block material.
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