Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949655
11/11/15 10:28 PM
11/11/15 10:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,119 85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,119
85086
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I think 30 passes caused that damage. Does your motor have the lifter galley oil modification that puts mote oil to the bearings?
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: moparpollack]
#1949658
11/11/15 10:31 PM
11/11/15 10:31 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
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Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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I think 30 passes caused that damage. Does your motor have the lifter galley oil modification that puts mote oil to the bearings? Nope, the block isn't modified.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949663
11/11/15 10:43 PM
11/11/15 10:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880 -
RSNOMO
Moparts Torchbearer
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Moparts Torchbearer
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880
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We pulled a 360 down and the bearings look bad. Bearings 2, 4, and 5 don't even fit snugly into the main bearing cap anymore. They seem like they are egged. The lead overlay on number 5 bearing pretty much flaked out.
These bearings have about 30 passes on them.
What do you think the cause of this is? (see pics)... 1) How high did it get twisted??? 2) How much temp did it see??? 3) Oil???
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: RSNOMO]
#1949667
11/11/15 10:48 PM
11/11/15 10:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
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Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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We pulled a 360 down and the bearings look bad. Bearings 2, 4, and 5 don't even fit snugly into the main bearing cap anymore. They seem like they are egged. The lead overlay on number 5 bearing pretty much flaked out.
These bearings have about 30 passes on them.
What do you think the cause of this is? (see pics)... 1) How high did it get twisted??? 2) How much temp did it see??? 3) Oil??? 6,000 RPM. Runs 180-190 degrees. Oils looks good.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: qwkmopardan]
#1949668
11/11/15 10:49 PM
11/11/15 10:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
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Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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Not enough clearance. Crank grinders like to grind your crank on high side, bearing manufacturer likes to give you bearing close to max wall thickness and old blocks main bores shrink from heat cycling. Now that it has bearings that look like these guaranteed main bores have shrunk. Probably needs line honed.
When you get crank turned have turned .011-.021-.031 US to give you more bearing clearance. Clevite now makes bearing in std with ex clearance so if you have a new or good std. crank use part # MS1266HGX
An engine with a little to much clearance will run forever, one a little to tight will die young. About the same as we were thinking....thanks
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949669
11/11/15 10:51 PM
11/11/15 10:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,119 85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,119
85086
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Are you running a four speed still? four speeds are hard on parts. Sorry to hear of your loss.
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949691
11/11/15 11:29 PM
11/11/15 11:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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What oil pump?
What oil pan?
360 large mains need more oil to keep up the larger journals. High volume pumps will pump the pan dry. Just an idea.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dvw]
#1949731
11/12/15 12:52 AM
11/12/15 12:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
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Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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I don't buy not enough clearance with damage that bad in only 30 passes on a mild build. I'd like to see all the bearings, rods and mains. What is "oil looks good"? It must have metal flakes in it, correct? What were the bearing clearances set at when it was built? Was it pre-lubed? What pressure was it running at? Why did you disassemble it in the first place? Internal noise? What does the oil pick-up screen look like? Are ALL the internal galley plugs correctly installed? A lot more investigation needs to be done before a proper diagnosis is made. Plenty of stock lower end 360's running around that stay together under quite a bit of abuse. Lets find the actual cause so there won't be a repeat. Doug mains were .002 clearance, oil pressure 30psi hot at idle. Prelubed. we'll take it down further in the next few days.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949751
11/12/15 01:22 AM
11/12/15 01:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846 MI, usa
dvw
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846
MI, usa
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1949993
11/12/15 03:00 PM
11/12/15 03:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Columbia, CT
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.002"? Measured or plastigaged? That should be plenty of clearance provided the crank was ground without taper and the main bearing bores were correct when you assembled. You might want to think about replacing the main bolts too. That cap's parting line looks a little strange to me.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: slantzilla]
#1950122
11/12/15 08:06 PM
11/12/15 08:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 22,873 Chicken coop
dustergirl340
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Chicken Little
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Chicken Little
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What does the crank look like? It is rough or discolored? That really looks to me like it was run out of oil. Crank is perfect, it wasn't run out of oil. Think we figured it out with more investigating...the bearing caps weren't sitting correctly. High spots in the bearing saddles. Thanks guys. It will all be torn down and re-machined anyway.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1950149
11/12/15 09:15 PM
11/12/15 09:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180
PA.
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Well look at it this way. At least you caught it before things turned ugly and thank God it's Winter. Lots of time to fix it right
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1950563
11/13/15 04:00 PM
11/13/15 04:00 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
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master
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Washington
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When bearings are egged shaped, it usually means detonation. Unless you are running really thin oil, .002 MEASURED clearance is too little for that big main bearing. I would use nothing less than .0025 and would go to .003 if you are using anything heavier than a 40 grade oil.
A high volume oil pump WILL NOT, NOR CAN IT, pump the pan dry any faster than a standard volume pump. Sort of like the long tube/short tube header thing...who determines what is long and wht is short? If you up the engine speed past OEM (which is generally a sustained speed [RPM] of over 4500 because the factory considered most people never twist them up for long periods of time) then you should have the "high" volume oil pump.
If you want to talk to some one who can explain this to you, call Kevin Johnson. Just google crank scrapers and you will find Ishihara-Johnson crank scrapers. Call him up. Take notes.He is a smart man who doesn't bull crap you around.
You have more issues than you think IMO.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1950583
11/13/15 04:37 PM
11/13/15 04:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,596 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
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Posts: 11,596
Fulton County, PA
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Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen or heard what the rods look like. I've dealt with enough oil issues in stock crank, high RPM 360s to find it hard to believe a main could get to that point without the rods coming out of it first.
6k is not a lot of RPM and it shouldn't take radical oil system mods to keep it happy. There are some basic things that would be helpful though. You can take it apart and fix it, but I'd want to know why that happened rather than just hope it doesn't happen again.
ETA...I'm with Porter67 in that I'm not sure what that statement means. But I'm curious.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 11/13/15 04:40 PM.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1950592
11/13/15 04:52 PM
11/13/15 04:52 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457 Washington
madscientist
master
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master
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Washington
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The only thing I can think of is there was something on the bore of the main bearing. Don't know if its metal or what. I'd like to know what they found.
I guess it's possible there wasn't any press fit between the cap and register and it let the cap move on the bolts.
Just guessing though.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: madscientist]
#1950609
11/13/15 05:33 PM
11/13/15 05:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180
PA.
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In my 40 years of building and tearing apart engines I've seen a lot of things that are put together poorly. I tore apart a small block 360 one time that was still running and raced (hydraulic cam and sounded like dog-poop till reved up) that had 3 oil galley plugs missing. I tore one apart with the bearing installed with the oil feed hole installed in the cap instead of the block. one had .010 bearing instead of the needed standard size. Engines put together straight from the machine shop without the proper cleaning. ZERO thrust bearing clearance and many others.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: Porter67]
#1950621
11/13/15 05:59 PM
11/13/15 05:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 18,880 -
RSNOMO
Moparts Torchbearer
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Moparts Torchbearer
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Posts: 18,880
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Upon assembly with the caps set on the register other then maybe a tap with a very small screwdriver sized rubber mallet they either fit correctly or they dont.
Depends on how far it gets taken... I've 'dressed' more than one main cap before assembly...
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: Porter67]
#1950662
11/13/15 07:34 PM
11/13/15 07:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,180
PA.
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The crazy thing about the engine without the 3 pipe plugs is it was in my black Duster when I bought it and ran 11.80's with a 510 lift purple shaft hydraulic cam. Matt raced it the year I bought it till I built another engine for it. While idling in the pits or driving it around it sounded like CRAP. From the water box on when it was reved up the pressure must have been high enough to pump up the lifters. The 3 plugs missing and the one that really surprised me that it had enough pressure not to harm the bearings was the one on the rear driver side oil galley. The other two not so must as they mainly direct oil thru the oil filter. Those were the small vertical one located under the rear main cap and the one under the 90 degree oil filter adaptor.
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: dustergirl340]
#1950869
11/14/15 01:25 AM
11/14/15 01:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675 Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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The parting line looks like the cap isn't seating right. Possibly a weak bolt or cap flex which would be odd for such a heavy cap (#5). But something looks fishy there.
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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Re: Small block 360 bearings look bad....................
[Re: moper]
#1950985
11/14/15 11:19 AM
11/14/15 11:19 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685 pennsylvania
poboyengineering
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685
pennsylvania
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The parting line looks like the cap isn't seating right. Possibly a weak bolt or cap flex which would be odd for such a heavy cap (#5). But something looks fishy there. Does the block side bearing look the same? Just wondering if that cap/saddle isn't square.
It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.
Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
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