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Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: pittsburghracer] #1947587
11/08/15 03:22 PM
11/08/15 03:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Swedcharger67 Offline
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Swedcharger67  Offline
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Norrland, Sweden
Here is an example from today:
I'm using a wood burning stove to heat my house. The same Innovate MTX-L AFR gauge is used both with the stove and with alcohol and gas powered engines.
- The Innovate MTX-L doesn't know it's reading the exhaust gases from burning wood, all it cares about is the contents of the gases in the exhaust. When it measures Lambda=1, all is well, doesn't matter if you are burning wood, ethanol, gas, nitro or whatever.

Why make things complicated with AFR?

I don't need to know the stoichiometric value for burning wood, I don't need to know it for ethanol, I don't need to know it for gas...all I care about is Lambda, and that's what the AFR gauges with oxygen sensors are measuring. If interested, one (or the gauge) can then compute the AFR...

20151108_190149.jpg
Innovate MTX-L analyzing burning wood

20151108_190203.jpg

Martin, 67 Charger, 512 cui, E85, MegaSquirt MS3X sequential ignition & injection
Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: Swedcharger67] #1947880
11/09/15 01:02 AM
11/09/15 01:02 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 304
Florida
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Mark Whitener Offline
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Florida
Originally Posted By Swedcharger67
Originally Posted By Mark Whitener
Originally Posted By Swedcharger67
Originally Posted By wireweld
What is the afr for a E50 blend of fuel? I would like to use this blend in my engine.

The AFR for E50 is 11.9. Max power would be AFR 10.2

I agree it's easier to use Lambda, but for initial settings you may need the AFR for calculations.

Here is complete info for you:


You can't use those numbers unless the AFR gauge is calibrated for the stoich of the fuel. In other words a gas scaled AFR gauge is calibrated for 14.7 as stoich for the fuel. The easiest way to use a gas gauge is to divide the observed number on the gauge by 14.7, that will give you the Lambda number. On a gas scale shoot for 12.2-12.5 as a starting point, jet for best performance from there.

The Lambda sensor measures the contents of the exhaust gases and when the combustion is optimal all oxygen is used in the combustion process. This is Lambda=1. Then for those people who want to use the old AFR value, you have to program in the stoiciometric value for your type of fuel. Based on the Lambda value measured, the AFR value is then computed based on the stoiciometric value programmed, and displayed if so chosen.
A Lambda sensor (AFR gauge) is calibrated in free air, not with any relation to the fuel type used.


With an Innovate or some others that's correct, however if his O2 system is set for typical gas stoich at 14.7 your table has no value. Sensor calibration is done in free air, however the gauge calibrations if set and unchangeable at 14.7 (equaling a 1.0 Lambda) will suggest a starting point reading around 12.2 to 12.5, which translates to .83 to .85 Lambda. Those are safe starting numbers, jet from there as needed for best performance.


Mark Whitener
[url=www.racingfuelsystems.com[/url]
Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: Mark Whitener] #1947943
11/09/15 05:58 AM
11/09/15 05:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Swedcharger67 Offline
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Swedcharger67  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Originally Posted By Mark Whitener
With an Innovate or some others that's correct, however if his O2 system is set for typical gas stoich at 14.7 your table has no value. Sensor calibration is done in free air, however the gauge calibrations if set and unchangeable at 14.7 (equaling a 1.0 Lambda) will suggest a starting point reading around 12.2 to 12.5, which translates to .83 to .85 Lambda. Those are safe starting numbers, jet from there as needed for best performance.


I agree the 12.2 can be used as a starting point, but with E50 it will be lean, and even more so with 12.5.

As far as I can see the table I published is correct:
- Stoich for E100 = 9.0
- Stoich for pure gasoline (E0) is 14.7

With a 50% mix (E50) the stoich (Lambda=1) will be (14.7-0.5(14.7-9)=11.85, shown as 11.9 in the table.

For max performance with E50 we aim at Lambda = 0.85, which gives us roughly AFR = 10.1 with E50, shown as 10.2 in the table (Lambda target unknown for WOT in the table).

So in my opinion the table is correct, and an AFR gauge set to stoich 14.7 for pure gasoline, should display AFR = 10.1 for max power at WOT with an E50 mix. For ideal combustion (Lambda = 1) it should show AFR = 11.9


Martin, 67 Charger, 512 cui, E85, MegaSquirt MS3X sequential ignition & injection
Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: Swedcharger67] #1947956
11/09/15 08:38 AM
11/09/15 08:38 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,259
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline
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Plymouth, MI
Originally Posted By Swedcharger67
So in my opinion the table is correct, and an AFR gauge set to stoich 14.7 for pure gasoline, should display AFR = 10.1 for max power at WOT with an E50 mix. For ideal combustion (Lambda = 1) it should show AFR = 11.9


The table is correct, however... it would only show an AFR = 11.9 at stoich if the meter can be rescaled to represent E50. Mark is assuming the meter can only read on the gasoline scale. If it is, the meter is going to be reading 14.7 at stoich regardless of what fuel you're using if you do not have the ability to adjust the AFR scale.

Especially with an oddball fuel like E50, I would suggest buying a meter that can be set to lambda, it'll be much easier to comprehend instead of trying to back calculate AFR targets when it's not displaying the correct scale.


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: wireweld] #1948040
11/09/15 12:25 PM
11/09/15 12:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 304
Florida
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Mark Whitener Offline
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Florida
Correct, his gauge can't read Lambda, so the assumption that it is fixed at 14.7. With E50 it should actually run leaner than with E85, the higher percentage of gas will need less fuel. Straight gas will be anywhere from 12.8 to 13.2 depending on vaporization properties of the gas and the distribution ability of the engine. A very efficient engine can even run well up into the high 13 range. 12.5 will be more than safe with E50, what it wants in the end is up to the engine. The AFR in the 10 range will only work if the gauge can be calibrated to register a stoich value of 11.9.


Mark Whitener
[url=www.racingfuelsystems.com[/url]
Re: E50 air fuel ratio [Re: Mark Whitener] #1948126
11/09/15 03:14 PM
11/09/15 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Swedcharger67 Offline
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Swedcharger67  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
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Yes, you are right, I (finally) see the point with the non-programmable scale... smile


Martin, 67 Charger, 512 cui, E85, MegaSquirt MS3X sequential ignition & injection
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