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440 build...suggestions #192746 01/13/09 09:17 PM 01/13/09 09:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland N newbee69 OP super stock
newbee69 OP super stock N Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland	Hey guys, A guy by me is trying to get rid of a 440 short block. I might pick it up, but Im looking for build suggestions before I get it 74 block .30 steel crank KB 237 pistons, moly rings LY rods, arp bolts Clevite bearings I figure this would be a great starting point for a nice street build. I would want to add a six pack setup on the top as this would be going in an A12 clone. I would like to get about 10+ comp, run on pump gas, and get about 500 hp. I would like it to be more of a torque monster than a high end screamer. Suggestions on heads and cam? 915? 906? Eddys? Procomp? about 2.14/1.81? roller rockers? Any help and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192747 01/13/09 09:29 PM 01/13/09 09:29 PM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 4,920 Joplin, MO USA Robbins master
Robbins master Joined: May 2004 Posts: 4,920 Joplin, MO USA	Myself I would get something with closed chambers when it comes to the heads. Or can those pistons achieve quench with open chambered heads? Moparlee

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192748 01/13/09 09:31 PM 01/13/09 09:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: I would like to get about 10+ comp, run on pump gas, and get about 500 hp. Any help and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks. Aluminum heads(440 source's are $899) proper quench(piston to head) distance & you can run mid 10's CR on pump gas & achiece 500 hp. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: RapidRobert] #192749 01/13/09 10:34 PM 01/13/09 10:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada	source stealth heads or e-brock rpms. You've got the KB237's so you might as well go closed chamber and build a quench engine, but make sure to have the block decked so those pistons sit at zero-deck. Check out this build for the rest of the nuts and bolts. 535hp 440 and the update

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #192750 01/13/09 10:49 PM 01/13/09 10:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland N newbee69 OP super stock
newbee69 OP super stock N Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland	Wow, thats a good price on those 440 source heads. That looks like the way to go. Just have to deck the block. What do you think the CR would be without decking? Pistons are rated at 10.2 with 85 cc heads. What about cam? Thanks for help guys. Last edited by newbee69; 01/13/09 11:00 PM.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192751 01/13/09 11:11 PM 01/13/09 11:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada	The decking isn't for compression, it's for piston to head clearance. You want your pistons to be zero-deck so you can run .045" thick gaskets to get quench. Too much more piston to head clearance will give you a loss of quench and make the engine a little more detonation prone. With zero deck KB237's, a .045 gasket and stock source heads you'll be right at 10:1 compression. If you mill the heads down to 80cc's you will be at 10.5 compression.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192752 01/13/09 11:20 PM 01/13/09 11:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: What do you think the CR would be without decking? It's critical to measure your EXACT head cc's, deck height & piston valve notch cc's & the dimentions of available head gaskets(esp the thicknesses)for your particular engine & this is a very user friendly CR calculator. http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php? live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192753 01/13/09 11:27 PM 01/13/09 11:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	I've been playing around with a desktop dyno and if its at all accurate then you'll be hard pressed to make 500 hp with the Stealth heads, they just don't flow enough. Someone on this site did some mild porting on a set and when I plugged those #s in it really woke the motor up. However, I've been running this for motors in the 500 cube range. I'm in a similar position - just sold my shortblock and am planning the new one. I'm almost thinking you're better off to build a bulletproof bottom end on a 400 cube motor, slap on a set of Stealth heads, a "streetable" cam and carb and a big mother of a nitrous system. This way you can cruise all day long economically but have the punch when you need it. I've never been a big fan of NOS but I'm beginning to see the virtues!

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: Stanton] #192754 01/13/09 11:53 PM 01/13/09 11:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland N newbee69 OP super stock
newbee69 OP super stock N Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland	Thanks for clearing that up Daytona and Rapid. Im still learning. Although, if the block wasnt decked, then wouldnt that increase the piston to head distance, creating detonation and bad squish, but also lower CR? Not trying to argue, just learning. Stanton, I dont want to go the NOS route, but its a good idea. I would like to achieve 500 HP, but it doesnt need to be there. I am surprised to hear that the source heads dont flow well enough though. They seem to match up, number wise, to Eddys which Ive seen on plenty of 500+ hp builds.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192755 01/14/09 12:03 AM 01/14/09 12:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada	Quote: Thanks for clearing that up Daytona and Rapid. Im still learning. Although, if the block wasnt decked, then wouldnt that increase the piston to head distance, creating detonation and bad squish, but also lower CR? Yes. Having .060 piston to head will give you no useful quench where .045 will give you good quench. However the difference in compression ratios between those two would not be significant. The quench is worth it in terms of detonation resistance, even though it'll increase your compression a tad. Quote: I've been playing around with a desktop dyno and if its at all accurate then you'll be hard pressed to make 500 hp with the Stealth heads, they just don't flow enough. Dwayne (fast68plymouth) flowed a set of stealth heads verus a set of e-brock rpm heads, both heads straight out of the box. Here were his numbers he posted. Quote: 4.375 bore, 28" test pressure, radius plate on intake, no tube on exhaust: average flow for #5 and #7 cylinder lift----I/E .100--63.8/49.0 .200-140.5/104.1 .300-207.8/139.7 .400-239.2/164.6 .450-248.1/172.5 .500-256.1/177.8 .550-261.5/182.6 .600-265.3/188.2 .650-267.3/191.5 .700-267.3/195.8 here is an OOTB E head i tested recently, also the average for a left and right cylinder: lift----I/E .100--66.1/50.8 .200-138.3/105.4 .300-203.8/140.5 .400-243.1/163.6 .450-258.0/170.4 .500-265.7/178.6 .550-272.3/185.3 .600-276.5/190.3 .650-276.1/194.6 .700-275.7/197.3 You can see the stealths flow within +/- 4% of the RPM's across the board. So if the eddys are making 500+hp, the stealths will as well. If that's not enough for you, spend the extra 1k on sending them out to MCH for the CNC porting.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192756 01/14/09 12:12 AM 01/14/09 12:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	I just ran the program again with a 30 over 440 and stock Stealth heads. In order to make 475 HP you need a roller cam, single plane manifold, 10.5:1 comp and 1000 CFM carb. The problem is, it doesn't make that hp until 5000 RPM. It makes 500 ft/lbs of torque between 4000 and 5000 rpm The trouble with this setup is that the sucker will have a terrible idle because of the cam.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: Stanton] #192757 01/14/09 12:24 AM 01/14/09 12:24 AM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada	You must be doing something wrong because when I punch in a basic stealth/eddy headed 440 combo w/10.5:1 comp and a mild cam like a comp xe275hl I get a solid looking 500hp+ result.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #192758 01/14/09 08:53 AM 01/14/09 08:53 AM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,142 Central NC gch master
gch master Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,142 Central NC	Dyno simulations are just that simulations.Plenty of real world experience on here with 500hp no problem in a streetable maner.Heck you can do it with ported iron heads.Look at the default 500hp build in the tech archives.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: newbee69] #192759 01/14/09 09:23 AM 01/14/09 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md	I'm running a mopar 528 solid in my mild 440 w/ a six pack set-up. should be around 10.72:1 with ported closed chamber heads, 1.5 roller rockers, headers and the usual stuff. Should be close to 500.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: Mr.Yuck] #192760 01/16/09 10:32 AM 01/16/09 10:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,329 Melbourne, FL dwbiggs super gas
dwbiggs super gas Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 3,329 Melbourne, FL	Built mine to be around 500 HP based on consulting with UNLAWFUL on his first build in his Challenger. He went 12.1 with 4.11's first time out. I am probably a little small on my carb but do mostly street driving anyway.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: dwbiggs] #192761 01/16/09 01:29 PM 01/16/09 01:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 4,769 Holland MI Ottawa 2 2boltmain master
2boltmain master 2 Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 4,769 Holland MI Ottawa	Boy the hyd flat tappet profiles sure have come a long way since the days of the 509 purple shaft or Crane FireBall series. Roller cams/lifters make more power but man the price $$$! Keep old mopars alive.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #192762 01/16/09 04:29 PM 01/16/09 04:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,161 CT GTX MATT master
GTX MATT master Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,161 CT	Quote: You must be doing something wrong because when I punch in a basic stealth/eddy headed 440 combo w/10.5:1 comp and a mild cam like a comp xe275hl I get a solid looking 500hp+ result. Yeah, stanton are you being sure to put in a correct length for the headers as well as changing the intake flow coefficient? Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: GTX MATT] #192763 01/16/09 05:26 PM 01/16/09 05:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	I built my mild 440 in my 63 with parts I had that seemed to match up ok. If you punch in my just over 3700 lbs and my 116.84 mph it comes out to right about 500 flywheel hp. My 440 is basically a stock shortblock with KB quench dome pistons for open chamber heads. I used the KB pistons with the quench pad so I could get the quench pad within .042 of my cyl head for good quench. I run it at 10.0 comp using the 906 heads I ported and it runs fine on 92 pump with 36 to 38 total timing. With Eddy or Stealth heads you should definetly make more hp then my combo and I would run more like 10.5 to 11.0 comp with the aluminum heads. It would depend on the cam I used for the exact comp I would run but the aluminum heads can run about a 1/2 to 1 point more comp and still use 92 pump with the right build. But as stated the quench is very important. You could have 11.0 comp with quench and no ping and then have 9.5 comp on iron heads without quench and it might ping. You can click the link to see the build on my 63 but remember I am on a tight budget so I used alot of parts I already had. Ron http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html Last edited by 383man; 01/16/09 05:28 PM.

Re: 440 build...suggestions [Re: 383man] #192764 01/16/09 11:24 PM 01/16/09 11:24 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland N newbee69 OP super stock
newbee69 OP super stock N Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 908 North Chicagoland	Hey Thanks for the suggestions guys! These replies were just what I was looking for. I figure Ill be good with my short block. Im definitely going to look into those stealth heads. Ive already got the six pack setup. Thanks for educating me on quench and what "good" quench is. Now its just a matter of decking the block to get the proper quench, picking a nice streetable cam, and deciding if I want to go with roller rockers. Thanks guys. Ill get back with more questions as they come up.

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