440 build...suggestions

Posted By: newbee69

440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 01:17 AM

Hey guys,
A guy by me is trying to get rid of a 440 short block. I might pick it up, but Im looking for build suggestions before I get it

74 block .30
steel crank
KB 237 pistons, moly rings
LY rods, arp bolts
Clevite bearings

I figure this would be a great starting point for a nice street build.
I would want to add a six pack setup on the top as this would be going in an A12 clone.

I would like to get about 10+ comp, run on pump gas, and get about 500 hp. I would like it to be more of a torque monster than a high end screamer.

Suggestions on heads and cam?

915? 906? Eddys? Procomp? about 2.14/1.81? roller rockers?

Any help and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Posted By: Robbins

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 01:29 AM

Myself I would get something with closed chambers when it comes to the heads. Or can those pistons achieve quench with open chambered heads?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 01:31 AM

Quote:

I would like to get about 10+ comp, run on pump gas, and get about 500 hp. Any help and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Aluminum heads(440 source's are $899) proper quench(piston to head) distance & you can run mid 10's CR on pump gas & achiece 500 hp.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 02:34 AM

source stealth heads or e-brock rpms. You've got the KB237's so you might as well go closed chamber and build a quench engine, but make sure to have the block decked so those pistons sit at zero-deck.

Check out this build for the rest of the nuts and bolts.

535hp 440

and the update

Posted By: newbee69

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 02:49 AM

Wow, thats a good price on those 440 source heads. That looks like the way to go. Just have to deck the block. What do you think the CR would be without decking? Pistons are rated at 10.2 with 85 cc heads.
What about cam?
Thanks for help guys.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 03:11 AM

The decking isn't for compression, it's for piston to head clearance. You want your pistons to be zero-deck so you can run .045" thick gaskets to get quench. Too much more piston to head clearance will give you a loss of quench and make the engine a little more detonation prone. With zero deck KB237's, a .045 gasket and stock source heads you'll be right at 10:1 compression. If you mill the heads down to 80cc's you will be at 10.5 compression.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 03:20 AM

Quote:

What do you think the CR would be without decking?

It's critical to measure your EXACT head cc's, deck height & piston valve notch cc's & the dimentions of available head gaskets(esp the thicknesses)for your particular engine & this is a very user friendly CR calculator. http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 03:27 AM

I've been playing around with a desktop dyno and if its at all accurate then you'll be hard pressed to make 500 hp with the Stealth heads, they just don't flow enough. Someone on this site did some mild porting on a set and when I plugged those #s in it really woke the motor up. However, I've been running this for motors in the 500 cube range. I'm in a similar position - just sold my shortblock and am planning the new one. I'm almost thinking you're better off to build a bulletproof bottom end on a 400 cube motor, slap on a set of Stealth heads, a "streetable" cam and carb and a big mother of a nitrous system. This way you can cruise all day long economically but have the punch when you need it. I've never been a big fan of NOS but I'm beginning to see the virtues!

Posted By: newbee69

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 03:53 AM

Thanks for clearing that up Daytona and Rapid. Im still learning.

Although, if the block wasnt decked, then wouldnt that increase the piston to head distance, creating detonation and bad squish, but also lower CR? Not trying to argue, just learning.
Stanton, I dont want to go the NOS route, but its a good idea. I would like to achieve 500 HP, but it doesnt need to be there.
I am surprised to hear that the source heads dont flow well enough though. They seem to match up, number wise, to Eddys which Ive seen on plenty of 500+ hp builds.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 04:03 AM

Quote:

Thanks for clearing that up Daytona and Rapid. Im still learning. Although, if the block wasnt decked, then wouldnt that increase the piston to head distance, creating detonation and bad squish, but also lower CR?

Yes. Having .060 piston to head will give you no useful quench where .045 will give you good quench. However the difference in compression ratios between those two would not be significant. The quench is worth it in terms of detonation resistance, even though it'll increase your compression a tad.

Quote:

I've been playing around with a desktop dyno and if its at all accurate then you'll be hard pressed to make 500 hp with the Stealth heads, they just don't flow enough.

Dwayne (fast68plymouth) flowed a set of stealth heads verus a set of e-brock rpm heads, both heads straight out of the box. Here were his numbers he posted.

Quote:

4.375 bore, 28" test pressure, radius plate on intake, no tube on exhaust:

average flow for #5 and #7 cylinder

lift----I/E
.100--63.8/49.0
.200-140.5/104.1
.300-207.8/139.7
.400-239.2/164.6
.450-248.1/172.5
.500-256.1/177.8
.550-261.5/182.6
.600-265.3/188.2
.650-267.3/191.5
.700-267.3/195.8

here is an OOTB E head i tested recently, also the average for a left and right cylinder:

lift----I/E
.100--66.1/50.8
.200-138.3/105.4
.300-203.8/140.5
.400-243.1/163.6
.450-258.0/170.4
.500-265.7/178.6
.550-272.3/185.3
.600-276.5/190.3
.650-276.1/194.6
.700-275.7/197.3

You can see the stealths flow within +/- 4% of the RPM's across the board. So if the eddys are making 500+hp, the stealths will as well. If that's not enough for you, spend the extra 1k on sending them out to MCH for the CNC porting.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 04:12 AM

I just ran the program again with a 30 over 440 and stock Stealth heads. In order to make 475 HP you need a roller cam, single plane manifold, 10.5:1 comp and 1000 CFM carb. The problem is, it doesn't make that hp until 5000 RPM. It makes 500 ft/lbs of torque between 4000 and 5000 rpm

The trouble with this setup is that the sucker will have a terrible idle because of the cam.

Posted By: DaytonaTurbo

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 04:24 AM

You must be doing something wrong because when I punch in a basic stealth/eddy headed 440 combo w/10.5:1 comp and a mild cam like a comp xe275hl I get a solid looking 500hp+ result.

Posted By: gch

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 12:53 PM

Dyno simulations are just that simulations.Plenty of real world experience on here with 500hp no problem in a streetable maner.Heck you can do it with ported iron heads.Look at the default 500hp build in the tech archives.

Posted By: Mr.Yuck

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/14/09 01:23 PM

I'm running a mopar 528 solid in my mild 440 w/ a six pack set-up. should be around 10.72:1 with ported closed chamber heads, 1.5 roller rockers, headers and the usual stuff. Should be close to 500.

Posted By: dwbiggs

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/16/09 02:32 PM

Built mine to be around 500 HP based on consulting with UNLAWFUL on his first build in his Challenger. He went 12.1 with 4.11's first time out. I am probably a little small on my carb but do mostly street driving anyway.

Posted By: 2boltmain

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/16/09 05:29 PM

Boy the hyd flat tappet profiles sure have come a long way since the days of the 509 purple shaft or Crane FireBall series. Roller cams/lifters make more power but man the price $$$!

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/16/09 08:29 PM

Quote:

You must be doing something wrong because when I punch in a basic stealth/eddy headed 440 combo w/10.5:1 comp and a mild cam like a comp xe275hl I get a solid looking 500hp+ result.

Yeah, stanton are you being sure to put in a correct length for the headers as well as changing the intake flow coefficient?

Posted By: 383man

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/16/09 09:26 PM

I built my mild 440 in my 63 with parts I had that seemed to match up ok. If you punch in my just over 3700 lbs and my 116.84 mph it comes out to right about 500 flywheel hp. My 440 is basically a stock shortblock with KB quench dome pistons for open chamber heads. I used the KB pistons with the quench pad so I could get the quench pad within .042 of my cyl head for good quench. I run it at 10.0 comp using the 906 heads I ported and it runs fine on 92 pump with 36 to 38 total timing. With Eddy or Stealth heads you should definetly make more hp then my combo and I would run more like 10.5 to 11.0 comp with the aluminum heads. It would depend on the cam I used for the exact comp I would run but the aluminum heads can run about a 1/2 to 1 point more comp and still use 92 pump with the right build. But as stated the quench is very important. You could have 11.0 comp with quench and no ping and then have 9.5 comp on iron heads without quench and it might ping. You can click the link to see the build on my 63 but remember I am on a tight budget so I used alot of parts I already had.

Ron

http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html

Posted By: newbee69

Re: 440 build...suggestions - 01/17/09 03:24 AM

Hey Thanks for the suggestions guys! These replies were just what I was looking for.
I figure Ill be good with my short block.
Im definitely going to look into those stealth heads. Ive already got the six pack setup.
Thanks for educating me on quench and what "good" quench is.
Now its just a matter of decking the block to get the proper quench, picking a nice streetable cam, and deciding if I want to go with roller rockers.
Thanks guys. Ill get back with more questions as they come up.