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Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber #1897930
08/23/15 09:55 PM
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I have an upgraded HD steel driveshaft in my 'Cuda now, built back in the '80's. All made before the advent of aluminum or carbon fiber. I am guessing that the lesser weight of these would make the car et faster. Anyone have any idea how much better a car will perform with either of these 2 materials? Do they hold up as well as steel? Are they safer/stronger than steel? Are they worth the expense?


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1897992
08/23/15 10:58 PM
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Reduces the ET by .000 RCH


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: polyspheric] #1897995
08/23/15 11:02 PM
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Does that prediction also account for a lighter weight wallet with the non steel DS?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: polyspheric] #1898006
08/23/15 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted By polyspheric
Reduces the ET by .000 RCH


What is RCH? Why wouldn't et lower if reciprocating weight is reduced?


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898021
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You are asking a question discussed many times before. Usually no one has any real proof to support a performance increase. You are correct, it has to be an improvement, but evidently not enough to notice. Just the weight savings, should be a plus.One thing is the high dollar items can be thought to be better built/higher quality, and built the next size larger dia, which is a huge improvement in increasing the shafts "critical speed" ( jump ropes). I have a few Alum Glued MW shafts, and if money was not a big concern, I would go CF, which when it fails, has a lot less destructive energy to deal with and becomes flexible strands/fibers, FWIW. bump

PS, "is it worth it dollar wise?" Only one person can answer that.

Last edited by jcc; 08/23/15 11:36 PM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898106
08/24/15 01:02 AM
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The carbon shaft won't damage the car when it breaks. Steel and even aluminum will both beat your car all to hell underneath

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: jcc] #1898140
08/24/15 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted By jcc
You are asking a question discussed many times before. Usually no one has any real proof to support a performance increase. You are correct, it has to be an improvement, but evidently not enough to notice. Just the weight savings, should be a plus.One thing is the high dollar items can be thought to be better built/higher quality, and built the next size larger dia, which is a huge improvement in increasing the shafts "critical speed" ( jump ropes). I have a few Alum Glued MW shafts, and if money was not a big concern, I would go CF, which when it fails, has a lot less destructive energy to deal with and becomes flexible strands/fibers, FWIW. bump

PS, "is it worth it dollar wise?" Only one person can answer that.


Years ago when nascar started wheel dyno'ing the cars after the races and they noticed it. I know people on a craftsman truck team back then that tested small diameter driveshafts vs heavier and larger diameter driveshafts.

They claimed the smaller diameter would whip, which consumes energy, which consumes horsepower. Makes sense.

Last edited by autoxcuda; 08/24/15 02:57 AM.
Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898268
08/24/15 12:36 PM
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It's not reciprocating weight.


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898284
08/24/15 01:02 PM
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Being close to center line it just comes down to the
weight... and the cost.. I just use DOM
wave

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898323
08/24/15 02:19 PM
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Carbon shafts are marginal lighter than aluminum for sure. But as Monte pointed out the shatter and splinter when they break, unlike aluminum and steel. All the materials have a different critical speed. Diameter, material type and length will determine what material is necessary to avoid reaching a given materials critical driveshaft speed and keeping it from "whipping" the driveshaft on track.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: Al_Alguire] #1898329
08/24/15 02:26 PM
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Years ago my buddy tore up a CF drive shaft. He put his steel one back in, and made no difference in ET.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898596
08/24/15 08:59 PM
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So carbon fiber is out, but what advantages are there going to aluminum over steel, if any? Even the weight difference should account for something. Hey Poly, you seem to be in agreement with outlawssaa that there is no advantage. In the automotive world, I see you as Steven Hawking's cooler brother. My driveshaft is very close to stock length, so there should be a considerable amount of weight loss using aluminum over steel. Why would this not be a benefit ie: why won't the car be any quicker?


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898607
08/24/15 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
So carbon fiber is out, but what advantages are there going to aluminum over steel, if any? Even the weight difference should account for something. Hey Poly, you seem to be in agreement with outlawssaa that there is no advantage. In the automotive world, I see you as Steven Hawking's cooler brother. My driveshaft is very close to stock length, so there should be a considerable amount of weight loss using aluminum over steel. Why would this not be a benefit ie: why won't the car be any quicker?


Alum is a 2 to 1 ratio(basic figure) so you double the
wall thickness and loose 1/4 of the weight... yes weight
is a major factor in racing and I always push the light
weight... but the price and how close it is to center line
doesnt make much if any ET but does take weight out of the
wallet
EDIT
Every DS I have had made has been DOM... and thats not cheap
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 08/24/15 09:18 PM.
Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898611
08/24/15 09:21 PM
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Weight is weight............If I can buy a part that is just as good or better, plus it weighs less.........that's what I use. Ounces make pounds and 1 pound savings here and there, eventually make 10 pound savings and so on. Nice Carbon shafts can be bought in the $800 range from certain places and a good alum shaft from Denny's etc will set you back $500. So it depends on whether the extra $300 is worth it to you from a little weight and additional safety aspect

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898623
08/24/15 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted By sgcuda
So carbon fiber is out, but what advantages are there going to aluminum over steel, if any? Even the weight difference should account for something. Hey Poly, you seem to be in agreement with outlawssaa that there is no advantage. In the automotive world, I see you as Steven Hawking's cooler brother. My driveshaft is very close to stock length, so there should be a considerable amount of weight loss using aluminum over steel. Why would this not be a benefit ie: why won't the car be any quicker?


I had a drive shaft built for my 71 BB street car by a local drive line place that does everything including big trucks.

It was back in 2005 but I remember that the aluminum shaft was not much more than steel one and I went with aluminum. Been great for 10 years now. Got a healthy 440 6pak with a dana. Got rid of a 8 3/4 and that's why I needed a new drive shaft.
Go aluminum IMO, it's lighter and lighter is always good.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: Monte_Smith] #1898632
08/24/15 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
The carbon shaft won't damage the car when it breaks. Steel and even aluminum will both beat your car all to hell underneath

This is the reason I have a carbon fiber drive shaft. My tunnel is aluminum with 2 safety loops. I would not want one banging around in there that close to my seat. Well that and the fact my buddy had one that would no longer fit his car but worked for mine and I got a smoking deal.


Jim

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898633
08/24/15 09:37 PM
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Because it is rotational weight, IF there is a measurable difference, I would think it would be in the 60' time and it would be in the range of .0000X.

The biggest draw on power is accelerating the shaft from 0 RPM. Once it has been accelerated past zero it's a law of diminishing returns thing with the initial return being 2/3rds of 5/8ths of not much.

Where the aluminum and CF shafts will pay is when you are approaching/running 10K RPM shaft speeds.

Kevin

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: Monte_Smith] #1898638
08/24/15 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Weight is weight............If I can buy a part that is just as good or better, plus it weighs less.........that's what I use. Ounces make pounds and 1 pound savings here and there, eventually make 10 pound savings and so on. Nice Carbon shafts can be bought in the $800 range from certain places and a good alum shaft from Denny's etc will set you back $500. So it depends on whether the extra $300 is worth it to you from a little weight and additional safety aspect


I had a 290" TAD dragster rebodied at Murff McKinneys place with Magnesium panels one time.

They took a bucket and saved all the small pieces he cut off my car mounting the new body and it weighed a lot. Then he showed me many places on my car where we could save weight and those were incorporated into the next car. Grams add up to ounces and ounces add up to pounds. Been there. I had 49# hanging on the nose of my current car just to make minimum weight which is great.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898648
08/24/15 09:55 PM
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EXACTLY............you can't say, well this only weighs five pounds, that won't hurt anything. Do that 10 times and you stack 50lbs on your car for no reason.

I look at weight one way..........and that is, does the car absolutely positively NEED this part. And if it does NEED this part, how do I make said part lighter

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898687
08/24/15 10:56 PM
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Carbon driveshaft.......

A measure of safety AND weight reduction, for a relatively small investment.

win/win

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898707
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A relatively stock chassied car, with a stock tunnel and a couple loops................when it breaks a steel or aluminum shaft, the whipping tubing literally destroys the rear of the car, if it doesn't break at the joint. The only way to remotely "contain" a broken shaft, is with some of the moly driveshaft "enclosures" like tube chassis cars have and those still take a serious beating.

Some may remember a few years ago the lady, Barb Nesbitt, who was trying to sue NHRA because her car broke a shaft, got in the car, wrapped her arm around it, and nearly pulled it off. If carbon, she may have had a splinter at worst

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898826
08/25/15 02:29 AM
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Re: "it's a law of diminishing returns"
The amount of power required to change rotational speed is exactly the same regardless of what speed.

Re: aluminum vs. steel
As MR_P_BODY said above, the diameter is too small for the rotational inertia to be much different. What you're left with is the actual "dead" weight difference, which is a very expensive way to save weight.
If I didn't have one, and I could afford it, I'd buy aluminum.
As Vizard points out, there is no way to tell whether a CF D/S is a great product or a bomb due to quality control issues.


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1898842
08/25/15 03:04 AM
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There's a nifty chart out there on the internet that shows what diameter and material you need for X length to stay below the critical RPM at which your DS turns into a slinky.

Aluminum is less weight than steel, so for the same weight, an aluminum DS will be stiffer; going backwards, the same stiffness DS will weigh less in aluminum. Diameter is the easy way to gain stiffness, same as pushrods (or anything else) vice increasing wall thickness. Less weight is better. S/F.....Ken M

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: Monte_Smith] #1899187
08/25/15 04:52 PM
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Theory says the engine has to accelerate two different things.
1. The weight of the car.
2. The rotational inertia of everything on the car that accelerates when the car accelerates. That means engine rotating mass, flywheel and all clutch parts, all transmission parts involved at any one time, the driveshaft, ring and pinion, axle shafts, wheels and tires, brakes.

In Mark's Mechanical Engineering handbook, 7th ed., there is an interesting statement that tfor a popular car of I believe the '50s, with a total gear ratio of around 14:1 the engine spend as much power accelerating the rotating parts as the static parts.

The issue is that rotational inertia is influenced by the distance of the mass from the rotational axis, I believe by something like the 4th power. Realistically this means that as the diameter decreases, the rotational inertia decreases rapidly. So the contribution of things like axle shafts is usually neglected. So with shafts in transmissions. Acceleration is change in rotional speed divided by time. If you think about it you see that the engine parts change rpm much more than say a driveshaft, which accelerates more slowly than any other shaft except the axles themselves. Plus the driveshaft is maybe 4: in diameter, which means that even though it has length, it doesn't contribute very much to the rotational mass the engine is trying to accelerate.

So the real contribution a lightweight driveshaft makes is to static mass reduction. This is, I believe, why the auto manufacturers are making them out of aluminum. Every pound of vehicle mass requires energy to move and the CAFE standards are tightening.

There's another factor that has been mentioned and that is stiffness. A driveshaft in a drag car is long and slender and unsupported on both ends, so it is prone to vibration. Building a stiffer driveshaft is easier when using a lightweight material like aluminum or carbon fiber, as it can be made larger in diameter for the same weight, and larger in diameter is better than wall thickness for increasing the resonant frequency.

Thus, using a lightweight driveshaft won't really make a difference in acceleration due to reduction in rotating mass, but it will make a difference in reducing static mass. It will also allow a stiffer driveshaft which will be safer. Go as light as you can afford.

R.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: dogdays] #1899205
08/25/15 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted By dogdays
Theory says the engine has to accelerate two different things.
1. The weight of the car.
2. The rotational inertia of everything on the car that accelerates when the car accelerates. That means engine rotating mass, flywheel and all clutch parts, all transmission parts involved at any one time, the driveshaft, ring and pinion, axle shafts, wheels and tires, brakes.

In Mark's Mechanical Engineering handbook, 7th ed., there is an interesting statement that tfor a popular car of I believe the '50s, with a total gear ratio of around 14:1 the engine spend as much power accelerating the rotating parts as the static parts.

The issue is that rotational inertia is influenced by the distance of the mass from the rotational axis, I believe by something like the 4th power. Realistically this means that as the diameter decreases, the rotational inertia decreases rapidly. So the contribution of things like axle shafts is usually neglected. So with shafts in transmissions. Acceleration is change in rotional speed divided by time. If you think about it you see that the engine parts change rpm much more than say a driveshaft, which accelerates more slowly than any other shaft except the axles themselves. Plus the driveshaft is maybe 4: in diameter, which means that even though it has length, it doesn't contribute very much to the rotational mass the engine is trying to accelerate.

So the real contribution a lightweight driveshaft makes is to static mass reduction. This is, I believe, why the auto manufacturers are making them out of aluminum. Every pound of vehicle mass requires energy to move and the CAFE standards are tightening.

There's another factor that has been mentioned and that is stiffness. A driveshaft in a drag car is long and slender and unsupported on both ends, so it is prone to vibration. Building a stiffer driveshaft is easier when using a lightweight material like aluminum or carbon fiber, as it can be made larger in diameter for the same weight, and larger in diameter is better than wall thickness for increasing the resonant frequency.

Thus, using a lightweight driveshaft won't really make a difference in acceleration due to reduction in rotating mass, but it will make a difference in reducing static mass. It will also allow a stiffer driveshaft which will be safer. Go as light as you can afford.

R.


Thats why I'm glad my DS is short... I dont need the
big diameter or thick wall... yes the other shafts would
be lighter BUT at double the cost... and as a bracket car
I dont worry about that .. cost vs weight.. yes I could
have knocked another 50# out of my car but the cost didnt
justify it
wave

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1899367
08/25/15 09:43 PM
08/25/15 09:43 PM
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No sweat, you decide what you can or want to afford. A bracket car needs to be consistent, may not be looking for the last tenth. My steel driveshaft works just fine, except when I lift it into place I wish it was lighter!

R.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1899404
08/25/15 10:40 PM
08/25/15 10:40 PM
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Well, I haven't done any pricing yet. How much are aluminum drive shafts going for these days. How much are steel ones in comparison. Can't be too cheap. My Mark Williams slip yoke wasn't cheap when I purchased it last century. At least I can reuse that for the new shaft. Already set up for 1350 u joints.


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Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1899433
08/25/15 11:14 PM
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Get one made local, there are a ton of places that make them in Charlotte.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: Challenger 1] #1899449
08/25/15 11:28 PM
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Can a CF DS be shortened? work


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: dogdays] #1899845
08/26/15 04:49 PM
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For a typical bracket car the driveshaft probably doesn't matter much. But, once the driveshaft speed starts getting fairly high it becomes a safety issue and you have to change materials. There are driveshaft calculators out on the web. The critical speed depends on the length and the diameter. We had to change one car from steel to aluminum just because the steel shaft was close to reaching critical speed in high gear.

Re: Driveshafts: Steel vs. Aluminum vs. Carbon Fiber [Re: sgcuda] #1899919
08/26/15 07:33 PM
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CF shafts can be made to have a much higher critical speed and more importantly, they store energy, like a spring. They wind and unwind, taking some of the driveline shock away that tends to break parts. They absorb a great deal of harmonic energy as well, i.e vibrations. Best of all they "broom" when they fail. The cost to fix any tunnel or trans damage, even with loops, is far more than an upgrade to a CF shaft. Just my .02. Maybe not quicker, but easier on parts, less vibration, and no huge damage when broken.


Craig Scholl
CJD Automotive, LLC
Jacksonville, FL
www.CJDAUTOMOTIVE.com
904-400-1802

"I own a Mopar. I already know it won't be in stock, won't ship tomorrow, and won't fit without modification"
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