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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1881131
07/29/15 10:14 PM
07/29/15 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 154
Plano, TX
StricNine
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 154
Plano, TX
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So...are you guys saying that my aluminum main capped 511" CNC Victor motor isn't going to live with the 200 shot?
Should we be starting a pool? '78 Cordoba block, Jerry's caps, no fill. It'll be fine if the Cordoba came with soft Corinthian leather seats.
StricNine
79 Li'l Red Express, 15.04 @ 89.57
09 Challenger R/T, 11.95 @ 115.92
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: StricNine]
#1881274
07/30/15 12:57 AM
07/30/15 12:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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The solution
Build a 600hp Gen 3.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1881320
07/30/15 02:59 AM
07/30/15 02:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
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The solution
Build a 600hp Gen 3. That is EXACTY what I`m researching...  Care to give the run down and basic price/parts to get where you are at.?? Heres what I have figured out:  Reliable isn`t AFFORDABLE  Affordable isn`t RELIABLE  So neither is PRACTICAL 
Last edited by 6bblFLASH; 07/30/15 03:04 AM.
70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881330
07/30/15 04:07 AM
07/30/15 04:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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You detonate it, you break it.
Impossible to build a detonation proof engine, so everyone wants to blame the stock block instead of their aggressive tune-ups.
Between my Dad, 3 brothers and I, we've raced for 25 years, and beat on over 35 B and RB engines and never, NEVER cracked a main web...not once! Split cylinder walls, yes, broke LY rods, yes, all kinds of other carnage, sure...but no main web damage.
Current engine in my brother's 3300lb street strip Gremlin is a non filled 440 with stock caps and ARP studs, stock 440 crank, h-beam rods, icon pistons 10.5 to 1, solid cam with Indy-1 heads and two big shot plates. 8.87-149 at 16 degrees of timing and C-12. He wasted two sets of pistons with fuel delivery issues, and claims the cap walk chaffing is "significant", but it has two drag weeks, thousands of street miles and a 100 runs on it.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881431
07/30/15 11:51 AM
07/30/15 11:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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EXACTLY!! Thanks for clarifying it so well, Monte...wait a minute, no, no...that's not what I meant. I see what you did there...I think.
I'd say they know what they are doing, trying to wring every bit of horsepower and ET out of a given combination, and that usually puts them on the ragged edge of detonation. That's the game we play, and the line you can't step over is a moving target depending on components in and on the block, the weight it's pulling, the fuel used, and the weather conditions on that day (not the weather they had on the day it ran it's best number).
There is a story about a guy taking a motorcycle licensing test who was instructed to ride up to a white line and stop as close as he could get to it, as if it was a brick wall.
He stopped four feet from the line, and the instructor commented, "That's as close as you can get?" The rider shot back, "If that's a brick wall, that as close as I want to be!!"
I know there is a line where stock blocks break, I don't think it's 600 horsepower.
I know there is a point where all the bandaids you put on a stock block to allow you to ride closer to that line stop making sense as well. I like aluminum caps, but I've never purchased or installed a girdle.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881461
07/30/15 12:47 PM
07/30/15 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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The solution
Build a 600hp Gen 3. That is EXACTY what I`m researching... Care to give the run down and basic price/parts to get where you are at.?? Heres what I have figured out: Reliable isn`t AFFORDABLE Affordable isn`t RELIABLE So neither is PRACTICAL I have a 426 but 6.1 blocks are hard to find. so a stroker 5.7, eagle heads with valvesprings, stock rockers, cam 600/250 range, good pushrods, the knockoff drag pack intake with porting would get you there. with my 426, I shift at 6800 with 3.55 gears and cross at 6100. I just put 4.10s in though. and I'm 150-200 lbs heavier than your at. Steff spun his pretty hard but his engine is a 400 but is heavier than me and runs the same number as us.
Last edited by sixpackgut; 07/30/15 01:01 PM.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1881579
07/30/15 03:50 PM
07/30/15 03:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,160
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,160
PA.
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I now have a Keith Black block but this is how I look at it. It costs me less than 400 dollars to prep a 440 block and that includes cleaning and boring. I install my own cam bearings, block prep, and assembly so that keeps costs down. My first 440's ran hundreds of high 9's-10.40's and only cracked and broke stock forged cranks. When I bought my 2500 pound daytona it ran 9.0's-9.20's for years with zero issues other than cranks showing cranks on 3 year rebuilds. When I built my 440source 500 inch engine it ran 8.60's-8.90's with the only other upgrade being 440source billit main caps. When I tore the engine down for rebuild after 275 (8 second) passes I found that the block was cracked. No water or and other sign of it being cracked. This engine even hit 8500rpm at the line once when it destroyed a set of 4.30 9 inch ford gears. I never have used or will use concrete in one of my engine blocks. I have another 440source 512 cubic inch assembly sitting here that will be running 8's again in my other Duster soon. For the peanuts I spend if I get 250 runs out of a block I will be happy as heck. But being diapers are so cheap now it will probably be wearing one.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881618
07/30/15 05:06 PM
07/30/15 05:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Well, I can't prep any block for $400. Because by the time you have it bored, honed, cleaned, decked, main housing bores checked, line honed for alum caps(which I use), deburr it, cam bearings, plugs, chase threads, etc, you have well over $400 into it. Sure, you can do a lot of that yourself, but time is time and is not free. Whether you do it, or pay someone to do it, still requires all the same work and my time is worth something.
You might say, well I won't deck it. You could do that, but most stock blocks are terribly inconsistent from side to side, front to rear and lifter side to outside. I won't even build a stock type replacement without squaring it. Same on the line hone. I have yet to check one that met MY standards and if you put caps on, it's a must.
These days power is EASY to make. A mild cam, some decent alum head and stroker kit or not, a 600hp motor is nothing. That's EASY and most want more. So you have some nice alum heads, a 512 rotating assy, with a pretty healthy cam and get it together and think "I should really run this real easy, because I have a stock block". Whats the point in buying the GOOD parts if you can't use them to their potential. Most guys just don't think that way. We want all we can get and is generally the point of building a "good" motor.
Stock block is just a crap shoot, always has been, always will be.
Using Billy's example above. At the weight of the Gremlin, the ET and speed, they make about 900HP on both kits. So if each plate is 150ish, they are around 600hp on motor. Will that live for thousands of street miles and two Drag Weeks......sure it will. He says it has 100 track passes. OK, were those 100 passes ALL on two kits at the 900HP level.......probably not. You take that thing to the track EVERY weekend and every hit you make is on the jug on two kits, I am betting it's life would be pretty short.
Now I am NOT trying to discourage ANYBODY from building a stock block motor. It's your money and you can do as you wish. But you screw one together it makes well over 600hp, you should not be in the least bit surprised when you knock the main webs out of it.
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881620
07/30/15 05:09 PM
07/30/15 05:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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I am no expert but that looks like a 75 or older block with the thin webs, if you don't want to go to the 400 than at least get a 77-78 block with the thicker webs.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1881629
07/30/15 05:27 PM
07/30/15 05:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Well, I can't prep any block for $400. Because by the time you have it bored, honed, cleaned, decked, main housing bores checked, line honed for alum caps(which I use), deburr it, cam bearings, plugs, chase threads, etc, you have well over $400 into it. Sure, you can do a lot of that yourself, but time is time and is not free. Whether you do it, or pay someone to do it, still requires all the same work and my time is worth something.
You might say, well I won't deck it. You could do that, but most stock blocks are terribly inconsistent from side to side, front to rear and lifter side to outside. I won't even build a stock type replacement without squaring it. Same on the line hone. I have yet to check one that met MY standards and if you put caps on, it's a must.
These days power is EASY to make. A mild cam, some decent alum head and stroker kit or not, a 600hp motor is nothing. That's EASY and most want more. So you have some nice alum heads, a 512 rotating assy, with a pretty healthy cam and get it together and think "I should really run this real easy, because I have a stock block". Whats the point in buying the GOOD parts if you can't use them to their potential. Most guys just don't think that way. We want all we can get and is generally the point of building a "good" motor.
Stock block is just a crap shoot, always has been, always will be.
Using Billy's example above. At the weight of the Gremlin, the ET and speed, they make about 900HP on both kits. So if each plate is 150ish, they are around 600hp on motor. Will that live for thousands of street miles and two Drag Weeks......sure it will. He says it has 100 track passes. OK, were those 100 passes ALL on two kits at the 900HP level.......probably not. You take that thing to the track EVERY weekend and every hit you make is on the jug on two kits, I am betting it's life would be pretty short.
Now I am NOT trying to discourage ANYBODY from building a stock block motor. It's your money and you can do as you wish. But you screw one together it makes well over 600hp, you should not be in the least bit surprised when you knock the main webs out of it. And this is the real problem^^^^^^^^^^^. When I was growing up, every one and their mother had a 500 HP SBC and they did NOT. Today, the blocks are 30 plus years older, cams/induction/ignition/chassis/tires/fuel systems are all better. Where as you could screw together a decent 350-375 HP small block or a decent 500-525 HP big block, now you can do 500 plus small blocks and 600 HP big blocks all day long, screwing half of it up. RPM's are higher, strokes are longer, R/S ratios are WAY less so the blocks see more stress than ever. And we haven't even began to discuss power adders. I know guys are building big HP crap on P-car blocks all the time. There are times when I do it, but I whine like a girl because I know its a grenade with the pin pulled. I guess we no longer respect HP numbers the way we (at least I)did. We are lucky today because of what was done 34/40/50 years ago, by guys who developed ideas and products that allow us to absolutely kill it in power making. I always like to ask the customer the question this way: if we bought a Pro Stock engine and drive line and put it in your 8.50 car, will your 8.50 car magically run 6.60's??? No, because the chassis won't take the HP, TQ, RPM etc. It's too flexible. It's the smae scenario with a block. It needs to be solid or it will flex. The it will crack and fail.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1881832
07/30/15 10:51 PM
07/30/15 10:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,098
Massillon, Ohio
cudatom
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,098
Massillon, Ohio
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Hi Dennis sorry to see the damage. We've known each other since the late 70's and you have always seemed to get the most out of your combos.
So if it was me I would stick w/what you have. You only had 150 runs on the combo in 5 yrs. Hopefully you will be able to get it out more often but if not in 5 yrs we will be around 60. Hope to still be doing this but who knows.
I would bump your octane up a little to eliminate any detonation. Beaver Petroleum which is in Waco is close by. They have 110 and 112 at the pump. Mix some in w/your 93 and get the octane up to 96-98. Yeah I know its nice to say its a pump gas motor(technically it still would be pump gas) but at this point in our lives we start thinking twice about those large outlays of cash(yeah says the dumb A that is trying to put 2 cars together now Lol). I know you will get it going again, you always have and I look forward to seeing the Cuda at the track again.
Good Luck Dennis
Tom
Ok
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: cudatom]
#1882270
07/31/15 03:09 PM
07/31/15 03:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
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Thanks Tom....
More than likely it will be another RB.
Like you said how much longer does it need to last?
440 is the cheapest by far.....
70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1882286
07/31/15 03:43 PM
07/31/15 03:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,160
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,160
PA.
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The way I look at it you can spend thousands on a stock block or spend as little as possible. My 8 second combo is still being used by a member in his street car so it is still going strong. If you make a lot of HP it IS going to break if you race it often, NO MATTER WHAT. No band-aids will stop that. Some of the guys saying you have to do this and you have to do this haven't had their car running for years claiming they can't afford it. No kidding. Use good gas, be careful with the timing, and don't rev the heck out of it. The little gained is just not worth it.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1882774
08/01/15 11:06 AM
08/01/15 11:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
Jerry Kathe
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 220
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Heres the #4 main/cap pictures Jerry K. asked for. Would it be safe to assume this is the worst of the five at the mating surface? Either way, the evidence doesn't support detonation as the bore is too clean and brite, I would lean more towards inherent casting stress and harmonics. What does the rod bearing shells look like on the back sides? brite or dark? are they still snap fit or do they drop out of the rods and caps? Detonation can obviously kill parts, but its also going to leave a good bit of evidence behind, we haven't even discussed piston decks, ring lands, chamber coloring and so on.......lol I would forge on with the RB block for your objectives, just make sure the balance is done by a reputable shop, keep the balance neutral and if you can swing it ($) switch to a 4/7 & 2/3 swap cam, one of the best kept secrets for reducing harmonics, the cores are not cheap but it is good insurance.
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: Jerry Kathe]
#1882786
08/01/15 11:42 AM
08/01/15 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
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Interesting info Jerry. All the bearings fit tight,no loss of crush. However when it comes to detonation "hammering" the bearings that has not always been my experience. I have 8 pistons out of my boosted 440 streetcar that pushed the ring lands down,all the bearings were fine. On the 440 in question I collapsed the ring lands and dished the piston top from detonation on #4 piston a few years ago[different block} and the bearings were fine in that one too... I have torn down engines that have lost all the crush and the bearings are curled against the crank... I can only assume there is different levels and conditions surronding detonation damage. Can anyone explain how you hammer/deform a piston and not see it in the bearings?? Must be something I`m not looking for...
70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
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Re: Cracked Mains W/ Aluminum Caps
[Re: 6bblFLASH]
#1882791
08/01/15 11:58 AM
08/01/15 11:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,045
Shelby Twp. Mi
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Just my opinion but I'd redo another stock block. Get good sonic numbers on the bores, aluminum caps, make sure you have a good balance and BALANCER (ATI or ?). Ditch the 6-pac intake OR fix the distribution issues validated with port EGT's. Build it with good quench and keep it out of detonation. I think it will live well in your current HP level. I agree with MoparBilly/Pittsburg racer etc.
Last edited by HardcoreB; 08/01/15 11:59 AM.
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