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Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: 71birdJ68] #1778075
03/14/15 01:05 PM
03/14/15 01:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Spokane Washington
Quote:

The number of cars that are untouched and unmolested are virtually zero at this point in the game.




Well first of all, that's absolutely false. But let's assume it were true for a minute, why not hack up the remaining uncut cars?

I went with a Passon 5 speed, I was lucky and put a couple of them on order very early on and was one of the first to receive one. What a game changer these things are! Awesome everything, 100% bolt in, 100% reversible if I ever wanted to, no cutting. Now, I realize he's having trouble filling orders on these, maybe a year out before he gets caught up, but his OD 4 speed offers almost as much performance, is also a 100% bolt in, no hacking install, it costs less, and has a shorter lead time. If you want a temporary solution it's a good way to go as well.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: 71birdJ68] #1778076
03/14/15 01:16 PM
03/14/15 01:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,582
Rust Belt, SW PA
Silver70 Offline
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Rust Belt, SW PA
Quote:

Does it bolt right in, NO., can you use any of the factory stuff, NO. Can you undo it later if you want, NO. With the Passon, you get both.




In my case, my car is an auto on the column. So even to go with a 4 speed od, technically be hacking the car according to posts here. Yes you can use the original clutch linkage, pedals etc...

To each their own, but even in my 5 speed truck, I still want to shift to a 6th gear. Now to go to a t56, that takes cutting up a car, crossmember and so on... that's one I wouldn't do to my car.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: Silver70] #1778077
03/14/15 01:23 PM
03/14/15 01:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
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Spokane Washington
I agree, to each his own, and there are certainly cars (or trucks) where a TKO conversion makes sense. IMO, and generally speaking, the rarer/more special the car, the less sense it makes cutting it in any way.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1778078
03/14/15 01:43 PM
03/14/15 01:43 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

The number of cars that are untouched and unmolested are virtually zero at this point in the game.




Well first of all, that's absolutely false. But let's assume it were true for a minute, why not hack up the remaining uncut cars?






I was careful in my wording Scott, read it again.

Untouched and unmolested.

Lets say you find a grandma ride that just needs quarters. I see no difference between cutting the factory quarters off and installing new AMD hardware and modifying a car for a trans tunnel for a different transmission.

Either way you are cutting the car.

People modifying their property does not outrage me a bit. Were all going to die one day and all these cars we adore are going to regulated to the trashbin of history as the 60-70-80's generations die off. Where are all the millions of Model A' and T's gone to? I see one or two a year tops and usually driven by some graybeard.

Our cars are no different no matter how much we protest otherwise.

Last edited by gdonovan; 03/14/15 01:53 PM.



"I think its got a hemi"
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: gdonovan] #1778079
03/14/15 01:52 PM
03/14/15 01:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Spokane Washington
Quote:

Either way you are cutting the car.




No, one is repairing a car, the other is modifying it. But we can just agree to disagree, no big deal.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1778080
03/14/15 01:59 PM
03/14/15 01:59 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline
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Oakdale CT
Quote:

Quote:

Either way you are cutting the car.




No, one is repairing a car, the other is modifying it. But we can just agree to disagree, no big deal.





Fair enough! We meet up first round is on me.

Tunnel mods can be changed back, I just don't see it being the end of the world considering what some people have done "restoring" vehicles that were last seen on a 4' x 4' trailer.

Much easier to weld a tunnel section back in and grind it down than doing quarters!

I find it nice that Mopar owners have options for transmissions. Better than the old days when you had to piece bits and pieces together from various OEM parts bins. Not optimum.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1778081
03/14/15 02:04 PM
03/14/15 02:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 235
ga
R
ringo440 Offline OP
enthusiast
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ga
O.k. I just talked with the owner of the car and he said he was going to talk to APT Monday and see if he could return it. If they will not take it back he said still wants to get rid of the setup, even if he has to take a hit on it.He was under the impression that there was no cutting involved when he purchased it. He wants to go with passion o.d.

Thanks to everyone who responded to this post,not everyone agrees, But each reply was a education, This setup was not the right one for this car, But if I was building resto mod this sound like a great setup it is just not for a finished car.

Thanks






Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: gdonovan] #1778082
03/14/15 02:07 PM
03/14/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
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U.S.S.A.
Once a car is repainted top and bottom , which is the fad in the incorrect concourse resto these days, no one will know what has or hasn't been repaired.

IF the guy wants the trans he got then tell him it's going to need to be cut on , blending the paint in the tunnel ... which will be hidden from view ... and under the carpet ... again hidden from view .... is not as big a deal as you are making it out to be ...

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1778083
03/14/15 02:08 PM
03/14/15 02:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,451
Morristown Tn.
7
71birdJ68 Offline
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Morristown Tn.
I have watched this for a while now about the modern 5/6 speed trans installs, and have come to the conclusion that what I have said about cutting a nice floor aside, a lot of people don't have either the skills, or the tools, or the facilities, and everything else to do one of these installs. From what I have read on here, there is always something else that's needed that the installer wasn't told about, or sold in the kit that they then have to buy, and try to make it fit. The whole thing is a pile of parts from different kinds of cars that we are trying to shoe horn into cars that they weren't designed for. And that folks is why the Passon units rule, it's the right thing for about 99% of us, EVERYTHING WORKS LIKE IT CAME IN THE CAR.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: JohnRR] #1778084
03/14/15 05:12 PM
03/14/15 05:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 235
ga
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ringo440 Offline OP
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ga
I am not saying it is a big deal to install the Trans kit that he has.we just went over the pros and cons of what he wanted by changing from what he has now. And for what he wants the passion o.d. would be more in line to meet his needs at about half the price. As far as the modifications to install the setup he has now,it would be child's play with skills that I have

Last edited by ringo440; 03/14/15 06:00 PM.
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: 71birdJ68] #1778085
03/14/15 08:12 PM
03/14/15 08:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA Offline
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Quote:

I have watched this for a while now about the modern 5/6 speed trans installs, and have come to the conclusion that what I have said about cutting a nice floor aside, a lot of people don't have either the skills, or the tools, or the facilities, and everything else to do one of these installs. From what I have read on here, there is always something else that's needed that the installer wasn't told about, or sold in the kit that they then have to buy, and try to make it fit. The whole thing is a pile of parts from different kinds of cars that we are trying to shoe horn into cars that they weren't designed for. And that folks is why the Passon units rule, it's the right thing for about 99% of us, EVERYTHING WORKS LIKE IT CAME IN THE CAR.






While I can agree with most of your comment, and the OP is better off in this case supplying either a Passon 3spd OD (modded 883), or Passon's new 4spd OD (5spd) for his customer seeing that the car cannot be modified to accommodate a TKO install


However regarding the TKO kits as being a bunch of parts "from other cars" is a little misleading, as the Tremec TKO is a stand alone offering from Tremec, it's never been offered in a production vehicle, it's often confused as being the same as a Tremec T5 or Tremec 3550 mfg production series transmission, the kit components offered by the various companies are often comprised of proprietory custom made bellhousings, shifters, linkage, crossmembers, etc, etc, designed for the applied applications, not a bunch of "parts from other cars"...a good segment of auto enthusiast want a TKO 5 spd installation, as evident by the 10's of thousands of TKO units sold since their inception in the early 2000's....

IMHO the 5spd thing has been "played out", yes there's still a need for them, but after driving 5 sds for many years, the natural progression is the T56 6 spd for an even deeper OD, the Mopar crowd has always been late to the table, or slow to accept change, but at least there is a multitude of offerings in the OD market now to satisfy the requirements of the many different needs/views required


Mike

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: DAYCLONA] #1778086
03/14/15 10:30 PM
03/14/15 10:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan Offline
I Live Here
gdonovan  Offline
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Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
Quote:


However regarding the TKO kits as being a bunch of parts "from other cars" is a little misleading, as the Tremec TKO is a stand alone offering from Tremec, it's never been offered in a production vehicle, it's often confused as being the same as a Tremec T5 or Tremec 3550 mfg production series transmission, the kit components offered by the various companies are often comprised of proprietory custom made bellhousings, shifters, linkage, crossmembers, etc, etc, designed for the applied applications, not a bunch of "parts from other cars"..




Mike I was referring to Supra transmissions being used with Dakota bellhousings or the less than desirable Dakota/Ram NP3500.

People have been trying to stuff 5-speeds into Mopars before Keisler was offering kits.




"I think its got a hemi"
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: gdonovan] #1778087
03/15/15 12:42 AM
03/15/15 12:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
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P-A-S-S-O-N
No letter I in his name.
That's for the OP.

Also for the OP: It's great your customer/friend/whatever is willing to take a hit selling off his kit that will work with some mods to the vehicle AND waiting for at least a year for the Passon transmission. Or did you explain that to him?

Maybe the Passon kit to convert a 4-speed to the 4-speed overdrive will suffice, but it ain't cheap either.

Either way, I wish you luck.

R.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: dogdays] #1778088
03/15/15 11:40 AM
03/15/15 11:40 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 235
ga
R
ringo440 Offline OP
enthusiast
ringo440  Offline OP
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ga
Thank you for correcting my spelling of PASSON I will never spell it wrong again. As I said earlier each post has been a education,And I did explain the wait time for Hemi o.d. gear set,I talked to Passon and was told six to eight weeks for the parts I will install this gear set in the transmission case he already has. The gear set is under 2000.00 dollars the APT transmission and kit he paid 56000.00 dollars for. And yes he was a customer that became a friend so i will not charge him anything for the work that will done we live about 150 miles apart,so we don't get together that much.I didn't know he wanted a 5 speed or o.d. until he called and ask if I would install this setup he bought.I had never installed one of these kits so I thought I would post here and get some advice from people that has and find out what I was in for.He was told that no cutting was involved to install this kit,but after it arrived he found out that he would have to cut. So i get the call and after checking around I told him if cutting was something that he didn't want done that Passon had a o.d.setup that requires no cutting . So that is what the 72 year old customer/friend wants.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: 71birdJ68] #1778089
03/16/15 12:23 AM
03/16/15 12:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline
master
Magnum  Offline
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Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Quote:

I'd tell him to send it back, and get a 4 speed overdrive from Passon.




Trade 5 gears for 4? I don't see the advantage here.


Duzduster and Dayclona. These guys get it.

Cut the floor and make the car work well and enjoy. For the ones who are totally against anyone cutting the floor for an improvement. Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: Magnum] #1778090
03/16/15 02:17 PM
03/16/15 02:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
Quote:

Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.




Go look at the specs of the Passon OD conversion gearset then come back and comment on compromises and wide gear ratios.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: Supercuda] #1778091
03/17/15 01:02 AM
03/17/15 01:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 299
East Brunswick, NJ
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finadk Offline
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East Brunswick, NJ
I never dealt with Passon but I bought a T56 kit from American Powertrain for my 56 Dodge and am very happy with the quality of the kit, responsiveness to my questions and overall experience.
I used a lot of heat and a big hammer to clearance the floor without cutting.... but most cars wont ever be stripped to the bare shell which made that possible for me.
Call American Powertrain they will have the answers about how to get it installed.


Scott 1956 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer (408 Stroker, 4 Wheel Disc Brakes, Rack & Pinion, 6 speed) 2002 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab 1976 Corvette
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: Supercuda] #1778092
03/17/15 01:51 AM
03/17/15 01:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
Evil Spirit Offline
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Evil Spirit  Offline
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Newport, Mi
Quote:

Quote:

Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.




Go look at the specs of the Passon OD conversion gearset then come back and comment on compromises and wide gear ratios.




In a nutshell:

Passon's 5 speed and a standard 833's 1-4 gears are almost identical ratio's, making the 1-2 shift RPM drop the same - from 6000 to about 4400.

Both the TKO's 3.27-1.98 1-2 ratios and the Passon Hemi 4 speed O/D's 2.66-1.59 ratios drop the RPM's on the shift from 6000 all the way down to about 3600. The 2-3 on the TKO drops to 4000, and the 3-4 to about 4400 - the Passon 2-3 to 3800.

So, by the specs - both the TKO and the Passon 4 speed O/D are wide ratio transmissions and a compromise. If you need closer ratios - stick with and 833, or wait on your Passon 5 speed.

Personally, I think both the TKO and the Passon Hemi O/D 4 speed's 6000-3600 RPM drop is an excessive drop for most small blocks, and marginal at best for a big block. The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.



Free advice and worth every penny...
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Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: Evil Spirit] #1778093
03/17/15 02:13 AM
03/17/15 02:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms Offline
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard

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Spokane Washington
Quote:

The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.




Well, the numbers don't lie, but your ability to shift it quickly is also a factor in maintaining RPMs and in that case the Passon is the hands down winner.

Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install [Re: ScottSmith_Harms] #1778094
03/17/15 06:28 AM
03/17/15 06:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
Evil Spirit Offline
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Evil Spirit  Offline
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Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
Quote:

Quote:

The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.




Well, the numbers don't lie, but your ability to shift it quickly is also a factor in maintaining RPMs and in that case the Passon is the hands down winner.




There's only so much that can be done to a transmissions hard parts to make it shift smoothly or fast. But when a trans shifts, the countershaft, pilot shaft, and clutch disc must all be slowed down until the shift ring and syncro speeds are even and the next gear can be engaged. Lighter parts help, but this FACT is an inherent flaw in transmissions that have wide ratios and large RPM drops between gears - it simply takes longer to slow the disc down to 3600 than it does to 4400. This is why a trans may shift smooth as butter at 4500 and horrible at 6500. Wide ratio's are also harder on the wear parts - again, because they have to work harder to slow down the front of the trans.


Free advice and worth every penny...
Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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