Moparts
American Power Train 5 Speed Install
Posted By: ringo440
American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 12:07 AM
I am looking for tips and advice on how to install American power train 5 speed . A friend call me today and said he had bought their transmission and instalation kit. And wants me to install it for him.I want to know how much cutting is involved, this is a 1970 challenger 4 speed car. Photos of this install would be great. Thanks
Posted By: Crazy68Dart
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 01:57 AM
I would immediately pick up the phone and call AP and ask for Gray. He will help you out.
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 02:23 AM
I'd tell him to send it back, and get a 4 speed overdrive from Passon.
Posted By: topside
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 04:56 AM
I think MadMatt did one in his '70 Dart; floor & crossmember surgery were required.
Posted By: roadrunner7020
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 07:25 AM
I'm going to assume its much like the old Keisler kits you'll have to either cut the floor and weld in a new piece (auto) or massage the tunnel on a factory 4 speed this goes for e and b the a bodies are a little more work from my understanding.
Posted By: Hrtbkr
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 01:38 PM
I cut the tunnel near the front on the passenger side and a friend formed a patch panel and welded it in. I've been told by others you can bump that area out enough without cutting.
There were also issues with the pilot bearing staying in place. It would move after the engine warmed. I used Loctite black (from Graingers) to keep it in place.
![Attached picture 8458528-TrannyIn[1].JPG](https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/upload2/8458528-TrannyIn[1].JPG "8458528-TrannyIn[1].JPG")
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 02:36 PM
So it looks like the passion route may be the best way to go. The car was redone about two years ago , The bottom was painted at that time so I am not crazy about cutting and welding on the car. He had been on the list for passion 5 speed , but could not wait. I know he has not checked on the o.d. 4 speed,
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 03:48 PM
Once you cut the floor, there's no going back to original. I have a Passon 4 od, and really like it, I can cruse at 2500, which is around 73 mph. And guess what? Everything bolts up just like stock.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 05:49 PM
Talked this morning with passion , o.d. has a six to eight weeks wait time I hope I can get the guy to wait. What rear gear are you running?
Posted By: Lefty
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 08:39 PM
The Tremic TKO 600 five speed from AP bolted into my 440 equiped 66 Coronet with not much effort. I used a plumb bob to mark where to drill the tunnel for the shifter. Hardest part was figuring out where to mount the hydraulic clutch MC and push-rod. My understanding is it's the T56 six speed that requires surgery to install.
Posted By: Silver70
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 10:46 PM
I got a mew tko600 kit from kiesler still sitting in the boxes... From my research, you don't even need the 4 speed hump to use them in a b-body... that was clearance for the shifter. Like mentioned you can clearance the tunnel some. I imagine e-bodies are the same too. My perfect rust free floor pan was already cut years ago in the tunnel, otherwise I would wait and go passion also, but this kits already here and paid for.
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/13/15 11:13 PM
I have 3:54 gears, G-60x15 tires,26 inches tall. I have lots of torque, so I don't use 1st, or 2nd, but just to get the car rolling at a stop sign or red light. I cruse around town in 3, which is 1 to1 or 4th o'd.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 01:37 AM
That's the gear and tire size his car has. Thanks now we know what to expect if he goes with the Passion o.d.
Posted By: dezduster
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:26 AM
MY OPINION AND EXPERIANCE!!
Once you go five speed you will not be able to care less if the stock floor pan is intact EVER!!! The KEISLER 5 SPEED is the single best upgrade to my car. Even better than the 422ci small block.
If you sell and they say well the floor pan is not stock. Say lets go for a ride, take them out on the interstate if they still have concerns take them home and tell them to leave they are not being honest.
I did the swap over ten years ago. What I liked about the TKO was my 3.23 rear gears with the first gear in the TKO is similar to an 833 with 4.11. My cruise at 75 is 1900rpm with 275-60-15 BFG drag radials. I have been 170+mph with this combo AND at 70 to 75mph I have gotten better than 20mpg. Is it work yes, is it insurmountable no.
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:44 AM
Does it bolt right in, NO., can you use any of the factory stuff, NO. Can you undo it later if you want, NO. With the Passon, you get both.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 12:01 PM
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Can you undo it later if you want, NO.
This is simply hyperbole and false.
Whole race cars have been converted back to stock, some floor pan mods are childs play to change back.
Posted By: ahy
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 03:05 PM
I put the Keisler version of that transmission in a '70 Challenger a few years ago. Some 70's, especially the early ones, are tight in the front tunnel area as HRTBRKR shows. Mine was and I cut it out and installed a panel to enlarge it per directions.
Install was straight forward "nuts and bolts" after that. It is important to measure and correct driveshaft angles with shims on the transmission rear mount to get the angles dialed in.
I have about 14k miles on the setup and love driving it. 14 MPG on a warm cammed 496 driving X country is not bad either.
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 03:38 PM
Can you tell somebody that the car has the original untouched, un butchered up, un molested floor pans? NO. A man once told me that he had a hyper bole on his butt, but I didn't want to look.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 03:50 PM
Quote:
Can you tell somebody that the car has the original untouched, un butchered up, un molested floor pans? NO. A man once told me that he had a hyper bole on his butt, but I didn't want to look.
The number of cars that are untouched and unmolested are virtually zero at this point in the game. Cars have been dragged out of ditches and resurrected for big bucks and no one cares a wit if they had the original floor or not.
If you are so concerned about the value of the vehicle perhaps you should keep the original transmission in place too.
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 04:22 PM
But that's what I'm trying to tell the OP, you can have your cake, and eat it to. Everything looks, and works like OEM, but you have OD.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:05 PM
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The number of cars that are untouched and unmolested are virtually zero at this point in the game.
Well first of all, that's absolutely false. But let's assume it were true for a minute, why not hack up the remaining uncut cars? 
I went with a Passon 5 speed, I was lucky and put a couple of them on order very early on and was one of the first to receive one. What a game changer these things are! Awesome everything, 100% bolt in, 100% reversible if I ever wanted to, no cutting. Now, I realize he's having trouble filling orders on these, maybe a year out before he gets caught up, but his OD 4 speed offers almost as much performance, is also a 100% bolt in, no hacking install, it costs less, and has a shorter lead time. If you want a temporary solution it's a good way to go as well.
Posted By: Silver70
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:16 PM
Quote:
Does it bolt right in, NO., can you use any of the factory stuff, NO. Can you undo it later if you want, NO. With the Passon, you get both.
In my case, my car is an auto on the column. So even to go with a 4 speed od, technically be hacking the car according to posts here. Yes you can use the original clutch linkage, pedals etc...
To each their own, but even in my 5 speed truck, I still want to shift to a 6th gear. Now to go to a t56, that takes cutting up a car, crossmember and so on... that's one I wouldn't do to my car.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:23 PM
I agree, to each his own, and there are certainly cars (or trucks) where a TKO conversion makes sense. IMO, and generally speaking, the rarer/more special the car, the less sense it makes cutting it in any way.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:43 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The number of cars that are untouched and unmolested are virtually zero at this point in the game.
Well first of all, that's absolutely false. But let's assume it were true for a minute, why not hack up the remaining uncut cars?
I was careful in my wording Scott, read it again.
Untouched and unmolested.
Lets say you find a grandma ride that just needs quarters. I see no difference between cutting the factory quarters off and installing new AMD hardware and modifying a car for a trans tunnel for a different transmission.
Either way you are cutting the car.
People modifying their property does not outrage me a bit. Were all going to die one day and all these cars we adore are going to regulated to the trashbin of history as the 60-70-80's generations die off. Where are all the millions of Model A' and T's gone to? I see one or two a year tops and usually driven by some graybeard.
Our cars are no different no matter how much we protest otherwise.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:52 PM
Quote:
Either way you are cutting the car.
No, one is repairing a car, the other is modifying it. But we can just agree to disagree, no big deal.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 05:59 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Either way you are cutting the car.
No, one is repairing a car, the other is modifying it. But we can just agree to disagree, no big deal.
Fair enough! We meet up first round is on me.
Tunnel mods can be changed back, I just don't see it being the end of the world considering what some people have done "restoring" vehicles that were last seen on a 4' x 4' trailer.
Much easier to weld a tunnel section back in and grind it down than doing quarters!
I find it nice that Mopar owners have options for transmissions. Better than the old days when you had to piece bits and pieces together from various OEM parts bins. Not optimum.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 06:04 PM
O.k. I just talked with the owner of the car and he said he was going to talk to APT Monday and see if he could return it. If they will not take it back he said still wants to get rid of the setup, even if he has to take a hit on it.He was under the impression that there was no cutting involved when he purchased it. He wants to go with passion o.d.
Thanks to everyone who responded to this post,not everyone agrees, But each reply was a education, This setup was not the right one for this car, But if I was building resto mod this sound like a great setup it is just not for a finished car.
Thanks
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 06:07 PM
Once a car is repainted top and bottom , which is the fad in the incorrect concourse resto these days, no one will know what has or hasn't been repaired.
IF the guy wants the trans he got then tell him it's going to need to be cut on , blending the paint in the tunnel ... which will be hidden from view ... and under the carpet ... again hidden from view .... is not as big a deal as you are making it out to be ...
Posted By: 71birdJ68
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 06:08 PM
I have watched this for a while now about the modern 5/6 speed trans installs, and have come to the conclusion that what I have said about cutting a nice floor aside, a lot of people don't have either the skills, or the tools, or the facilities, and everything else to do one of these installs. From what I have read on here, there is always something else that's needed that the installer wasn't told about, or sold in the kit that they then have to buy, and try to make it fit. The whole thing is a pile of parts from different kinds of cars that we are trying to shoe horn into cars that they weren't designed for. And that folks is why the Passon units rule, it's the right thing for about 99% of us, EVERYTHING WORKS LIKE IT CAME IN THE CAR.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/14/15 09:12 PM
I am not saying it is a big deal to install the Trans kit that he has.we just went over the pros and cons of what he wanted by changing from what he has now. And for what he wants the passion o.d. would be more in line to meet his needs at about half the price. As far as the modifications to install the setup he has now,it would be child's play with skills that I have
Posted By: DAYCLONA
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/15/15 12:12 AM
Quote:
I have watched this for a while now about the modern 5/6 speed trans installs, and have come to the conclusion that what I have said about cutting a nice floor aside, a lot of people don't have either the skills, or the tools, or the facilities, and everything else to do one of these installs. From what I have read on here, there is always something else that's needed that the installer wasn't told about, or sold in the kit that they then have to buy, and try to make it fit. The whole thing is a pile of parts from different kinds of cars that we are trying to shoe horn into cars that they weren't designed for. And that folks is why the Passon units rule, it's the right thing for about 99% of us, EVERYTHING WORKS LIKE IT CAME IN THE CAR.
While I can agree with most of your comment, and the OP is better off in this case supplying either a Passon 3spd OD (modded 883), or Passon's new 4spd OD (5spd) for his customer seeing that the car cannot be modified to accommodate a TKO install
However regarding the TKO kits as being a bunch of parts "from other cars" is a little misleading, as the Tremec TKO is a stand alone offering from Tremec, it's never been offered in a production vehicle, it's often confused as being the same as a Tremec T5 or Tremec 3550 mfg production series transmission, the kit components offered by the various companies are often comprised of proprietory custom made bellhousings, shifters, linkage, crossmembers, etc, etc, designed for the applied applications, not a bunch of "parts from other cars"...a good segment of auto enthusiast want a TKO 5 spd installation, as evident by the 10's of thousands of TKO units sold since their inception in the early 2000's....
IMHO the 5spd thing has been "played out", yes there's still a need for them, but after driving 5 sds for many years, the natural progression is the T56 6 spd for an even deeper OD, the Mopar crowd has always been late to the table, or slow to accept change, but at least there is a multitude of offerings in the OD market now to satisfy the requirements of the many different needs/views required
Mike
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/15/15 02:30 AM
Quote:
However regarding the TKO kits as being a bunch of parts "from other cars" is a little misleading, as the Tremec TKO is a stand alone offering from Tremec, it's never been offered in a production vehicle, it's often confused as being the same as a Tremec T5 or Tremec 3550 mfg production series transmission, the kit components offered by the various companies are often comprised of proprietory custom made bellhousings, shifters, linkage, crossmembers, etc, etc, designed for the applied applications, not a bunch of "parts from other cars"..
Mike I was referring to Supra transmissions being used with Dakota bellhousings or the less than desirable Dakota/Ram NP3500.
People have been trying to stuff 5-speeds into Mopars before Keisler was offering kits.
Posted By: dogdays
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/15/15 04:42 AM
P-A-S-S-O-N
No letter I in his name.
That's for the OP.
Also for the OP: It's great your customer/friend/whatever is willing to take a hit selling off his kit that will work with some mods to the vehicle AND waiting for at least a year for the Passon transmission. Or did you explain that to him?
Maybe the Passon kit to convert a 4-speed to the 4-speed overdrive will suffice, but it ain't cheap either.
Either way, I wish you luck.
R.
Posted By: ringo440
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/15/15 03:40 PM
Thank you for correcting my spelling of PASSON I will never spell it wrong again. As I said earlier each post has been a education,And I did explain the wait time for Hemi o.d. gear set,I talked to Passon and was told six to eight weeks for the parts I will install this gear set in the transmission case he already has. The gear set is under 2000.00 dollars the APT transmission and kit he paid 56000.00 dollars for. And yes he was a customer that became a friend so i will not charge him anything for the work that will done we live about 150 miles apart,so we don't get together that much.I didn't know he wanted a 5 speed or o.d. until he called and ask if I would install this setup he bought.I had never installed one of these kits so I thought I would post here and get some advice from people that has and find out what I was in for.He was told that no cutting was involved to install this kit,but after it arrived he found out that he would have to cut. So i get the call and after checking around I told him if cutting was something that he didn't want done that Passon had a o.d.setup that requires no cutting . So that is what the 72 year old customer/friend wants.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/16/15 04:23 AM
Quote:
I'd tell him to send it back, and get a 4 speed overdrive from Passon.
Trade 5 gears for 4? I don't see the advantage here.
Duzduster and Dayclona. These guys get it.
Cut the floor and make the car work well and enjoy. For the ones who are totally against anyone cutting the floor for an improvement. Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/16/15 06:17 PM
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Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.
Go look at the specs of the Passon OD conversion gearset then come back and comment on compromises and wide gear ratios.
Posted By: finadk
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 05:02 AM
I never dealt with Passon but I bought a T56 kit from American Powertrain for my 56 Dodge and am very happy with the quality of the kit, responsiveness to my questions and overall experience.
I used a lot of heat and a big hammer to clearance the floor without cutting.... but most cars wont ever be stripped to the bare shell which made that possible for me.
Call American Powertrain they will have the answers about how to get it installed.
Posted By: Evil Spirit
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 05:51 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Wide gear ratio or a gear ratio comprimize is all that's left for you.
Go look at the specs of the Passon OD conversion gearset then come back and comment on compromises and wide gear ratios.
In a nutshell:
Passon's 5 speed and a standard 833's 1-4 gears are almost identical ratio's, making the 1-2 shift RPM drop the same - from 6000 to about 4400.
Both the TKO's 3.27-1.98 1-2 ratios and the Passon Hemi 4 speed O/D's 2.66-1.59 ratios drop the RPM's on the shift from 6000 all the way down to about 3600. The 2-3 on the TKO drops to 4000, and the 3-4 to about 4400 - the Passon 2-3 to 3800.
So, by the specs - both the TKO and the Passon 4 speed O/D are wide ratio transmissions and a compromise. If you need closer ratios - stick with and 833, or wait on your Passon 5 speed.
Personally, I think both the TKO and the Passon Hemi O/D 4 speed's 6000-3600 RPM drop is an excessive drop for most small blocks, and marginal at best for a big block. The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 06:13 AM
Quote:
The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.
Well, the numbers don't lie, but your ability to shift it quickly is also a factor in maintaining RPMs and in that case the Passon is the hands down winner.
Posted By: Evil Spirit
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 10:28 AM
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Quote:
The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.
Well, the numbers don't lie, but your ability to shift it quickly is also a factor in maintaining RPMs and in that case the Passon is the hands down winner.
There's only so much that can be done to a transmissions hard parts to make it shift smoothly or fast. But when a trans shifts, the countershaft, pilot shaft, and clutch disc must all be slowed down until the shift ring and syncro speeds are even and the next gear can be engaged. Lighter parts help, but this FACT is an inherent flaw in transmissions that have wide ratios and large RPM drops between gears - it simply takes longer to slow the disc down to 3600 than it does to 4400. This is why a trans may shift smooth as butter at 4500 and horrible at 6500. Wide ratio's are also harder on the wear parts - again, because they have to work harder to slow down the front of the trans. 
Posted By: JohnRR
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 03:12 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The TKO's advantage is a lower 1st gear, and less RPM drop on the 2-3 and 3-4.
Well, the numbers don't lie, but your ability to shift it quickly is also a factor in maintaining RPMs and in that case the Passon is the hands down winner.
HUH ???
It doesn't matter how fast you can shift the trans from gear to gear , the RPM is still going to drop the same amount.
The only reason the Passon setup is a winner for you is because of your stance againnst doing anything that involves a modification .
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/17/15 03:35 PM
Not entirely true John (my stance). No, I am not a proponant of cutting on a rare car, but aside from that Ive driven a fair number of Kiesler TKO equipped Mopars and they (in my experience) shift like crap, notchy and slow by comparisons to an 833 etc. Not a problem if all you do is row though the gears cruising around, but in drag racing its a different story.
Posted By: Magnum
Re: American Power Train 5 Speed Install - 03/19/15 02:44 AM
RPM drop is not from how fast your shift. It's a mechanical number derived from the difference in ratios.
As quick shifting. I agree with Scott and that also explains why 833's and T56's are my two favourtie transmissions.
For those who have wide ratio transmissions. Don't be offended. I've had some too. NV3500, T5's etc. I'm just here to state one shifts better than the other.