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Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: feets] #1770302
03/10/15 07:11 PM
03/10/15 07:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Pretty close, enough so to judge the merits of the Hotchkis setup. Be hard to do the same with an XV or RMS kit as they are pretty much an all or nothing swap.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Supercuda] #1770303
03/10/15 07:25 PM
03/10/15 07:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets Offline
Senior Management
feets  Offline
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Irving, TX
No doubt.


We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: cudazappa] #1770304
03/10/15 08:05 PM
03/10/15 08:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,089
Sorrento, BC, Canada
4speeds4me Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.




I agree. If need be, the Hotchkis Geometry Corrected system can be bought one component at a time. And, if memory serves, the Hotchkis TVS is less money than the RMS Alterkation setup. You'll drop another 2K for their Street Lynx out back. As near as I can tell, I would agree that there is no need to go with something like the XV or RMS, unless buying a bit of clear real estate under the hood is worth 4 grand to you...


2 Demons...no, not my kids!
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: feets] #1770305
03/10/15 08:09 PM
03/10/15 08:09 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda Offline
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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Texas
Quote:

This is the article I thought of:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/hrdp-0909-mopar-suspension-bolt-ons/

They tested the car making one change at a time.

While it's not exactly a t-bar to coil over swap it does show where the biggest gains were found.




I'd be curious to see all the runs and how much variation there was with just the driver per setup.


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
[img]https://i.imgur.com/v9yezP9.jpg[/img]
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Supercuda] #1770306
03/10/15 08:13 PM
03/10/15 08:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
Darius Offline
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Sacramento, Ca
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.




Thank you.

Hotchkis is stock based. RMS and XV are not.




It may be based on stock but it is wayyy different! Upper arms have a different angle, rear springs are different, frame connectors were NEVER even considered from the factory so I have to respectfully disagree .
I do agree on the RMS being all or none, I do have one of those in my GTX as I mentioned.


Driving modern convenience in classic beauty
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Darius] #1770307
03/10/15 09:32 PM
03/10/15 09:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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BergmanAutoCraft Offline
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Long Island, NY USA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.




Thank you.

Hotchkis is stock based. RMS and XV are not.




It may be based on stock but it is wayyy different! Upper arms have a different angle, rear springs are different, frame connectors were NEVER even considered from the factory so I have to respectfully disagree .
I do agree on the RMS being all or none, I do have one of those in my GTX as I mentioned.




UM, no they aren't. The A body Hotchkiss upper arms have not different geometry than any other arm that adds caster. Same with the rear springs. The "geometry" change is in the front spring hanger which is raised. The original Mopar circle track manuals explained this in detail 30+ yrs ago. The bottom line is the factory style works well when the right parts are chosen. Most do not have the knowledge to pick proper parts from the aftermarket, hence the popularity of "total solutions"

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: BergmanAutoCraft] #1770308
03/10/15 11:16 PM
03/10/15 11:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,089
Sorrento, BC, Canada
4speeds4me Offline
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Sorrento, BC, Canada
Thank-you! Correcting or improving on the system that already existed is MUCH different, IMHO, than a system that in no way resembles the factory system. That's not to say that EITHER school of thought is wrong, but you don't always have to think outside the box for a radical improvement. And while subframe connectors may not have been an option from the factory, Mopar's own racing programs have been singing their praises for over 40 years...saw a 401 Gremlin once that was so twisted from high RPM clutch drops that the left front wheel no longer touched the ground...


2 Demons...no, not my kids!
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: 4speeds4me] #1770309
03/10/15 11:43 PM
03/10/15 11:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
J
jcc Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc  Offline
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
J

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
Pictures?


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: jcc] #1770310
03/11/15 01:48 AM
03/11/15 01:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,089
Sorrento, BC, Canada
4speeds4me Offline
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Sorrento, BC, Canada
Quote:

Pictures?




I wish...we were still in high school back in the 80's. Shoehorned the 401/4-speed in in shop class. Those were the days...


2 Demons...no, not my kids!
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Mopar Mitch] #1770311
03/11/15 02:17 AM
03/11/15 02:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
Striving for excellence
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Granite Bay CA
" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: 4speeds4me] #1770312
03/11/15 02:40 AM
03/11/15 02:40 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 68
USA MO
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cdoublejj Offline
member
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Posts: 68
USA MO
Quote:

Thank-you! Correcting or improving on the system that already existed is MUCH different, IMHO, than a system that in no way resembles the factory system. That's not to say that EITHER school of thought is wrong, but you don't always have to think outside the box for a radical improvement. And while subframe connectors may not have been an option from the factory, Mopar's own racing programs have been singing their praises for over 40 years...saw a 401 Gremlin once that was so twisted from high RPM clutch drops that the left front wheel no longer touched the ground...




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pfNBrrP88


same issue with the sub frame on 2001 maxima and why all the guys see notable improvement when using giant washers on sub frame bolts in liu of new rubber grommets.

Puts all the force on the suspension and NOT the body/unibody. when you hits bumps and corner hard.

Last edited by cdoublejj; 03/11/15 02:42 AM.
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Kern Dog] #1770313
03/11/15 02:58 AM
03/11/15 02:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 68
USA MO
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cdoublejj Offline
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Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.




Well I think reading that i'll be sure not brag about that. That's really good point, what can say if you never had chance to compare to factory/spec properly maintained!

I can at least says i'm not getting such kit just because but, because i have some understanding of how they work and why. I'm looking for as much improvement as i can get as my wallet wallet will allow and i've done a lot of research.

at the very least i know the new trasngeder kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.

All in not to say the factory stuff is junk but, that want i even better, all i get.

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: cdoublejj] #1770314
03/11/15 08:42 AM
03/11/15 08:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda Offline
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Posts: 14,889
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Quote:

Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.




Well I think reading that i'll be sure not brag about that. That's really good point, what can say if you never had chance to compare to factory/spec properly maintained!

I can at least says i'm not getting such kit just because but, because i have some understanding of how they work and why. I'm looking for as much improvement as i can get as my wallet wallet will allow and i've done a lot of research.

at the very least i know the new trasngeder kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.

All in not to say the factory stuff is junk but, that want i even better, all i get.




Well drunk posting sure helps make your point.


They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Darius] #1770315
03/11/15 11:56 AM
03/11/15 11:56 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
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Houston Tx
Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Does my suspension count as 'tuned stock' in your book? I still have factory control arms...

I track my car regularly and I can't wait to put it up against a TVS car on a roadcourse. David vs Goliath. DIY vs Corporate.

I think very highly of the TVS system. It is the benchmark that all others should be compared to IMO. And if I get dusted on track I'll have to call up Dan, hat in one hand, credit card in the other...


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Kern Dog] #1770316
03/11/15 12:07 PM
03/11/15 12:07 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
super stock
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.




Tom K can answer that question. We did his 69 Barracuda with all factory stuff and his Valiant with all the Hotchkis stuff.

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Uhcoog1] #1770317
03/11/15 12:11 PM
03/11/15 12:11 PM
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis Offline
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Santa Fe Springs, CA
Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Does my suspension count as 'tuned stock' in your book? I still have factory control arms...

I track my car regularly and I can't wait to put it up against a TVS car on a roadcourse. David vs Goliath. DIY vs Corporate.

I think very highly of the TVS system. It is the benchmark that all others should be compared to IMO. And if I get dusted on track I'll have to call up Dan, hat in one hand, credit card in the other...




The stock stuff can do well, but the level of adjustibility on our stuff is unreal. I hope we can see you at an event in the future so at a minimum we could take you for a spin. I promise, you won't be disappointed!

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1770318
03/11/15 01:47 PM
03/11/15 01:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Pikes Peak Country
Quote:


at the very least i know the new transgender kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.




Quote:

The stock stuff can do well, but the level of adjustibility on our stuff is unreal.




This is the crux of the stock stuff, IMO. It isn't bad, it actually was great compared to its contemporaries back then, but its adjustability does not allow it to easily translate into modern specs where the best improvements lie. Can you modify it to get there, sure. Some of the newer pieces can get you there easier and faster.

We also can't discount the simple bling factor of new suspension systems that some people want. I'm sure any of us could point to four digit horsepower parking lot cruisers we have seen. The simple desire to want something shiny or new doesn't discount the desire and make it invalid. Its not our place to judge anyone who prefers the new coil over set ups as posers compared to someone willing to work with the stock junk to make it functional. Really, who cares what they use. Whether that use is driving to a parking lot to sit and polish the fender or driving to a parking lot to tear up asphalt, at least they are both out there taking pride in their vehicle.

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Supercuda] #1770319
03/11/15 02:09 PM
03/11/15 02:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,018
Oregon
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AndyF Offline
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Posts: 31,018
Oregon
Quote:

Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

Not interested in manufacturer's claims, seen too many shenanigan's over the years. Like running 305 heads on a 350 and claiming 40+hp gain over "stock" heads.

Almost not interested in magazine claims, seen too many shill for the sponsor shenanigans too, unless it was a three way head to head, like stock vs XV vs RMS vs Hotchkis type article, if it exists.

I have seen articles were an aftermarket suspension was put on a Mopar and showed improvement, but they serious upgraded the tires and rims too, so who knows what did what and that, in my book, is not a real test of the suspension swap.




It would cost a small fortune to do a valid A-B-C-D-E type of test with all of the aftermarket systems. Maybe $100K worth of parts and test costs by the time you rent a track and hire a driver and all of that. So no, I'm pretty confident that nobody will ever do that test.

I will say that Tim and I spent a lot of time looking at every available aftermarket setup. We're both engineers and he is a very highly trained driver. We had a budget, but we could've bought any system on the market and stayed in our budget.

Our analysis was that for a street driven track car, a stock based system is still the best choice. The XV stuff is probably the most advanced system on the market, but it is a huge change from the stock stuff and requires a big learning curve to fully optimize it.

Now I suppose we might have changed our minds if there had a been a Mopar guy with a fast car who was running the XV system. But when we looked around at real cars who spend real time on real tracks, the vast majority of those cars are running stock based suspensions.

The "pro touring" type of cars don't seem to show up at the track much. Or at least we didn't see much of them.

Tim's Valiant would go to the track and compete very well against Vipers, Vettes, Porsche, etc. He was usually the only classic Mopar at the track. Would the car have been even faster with a full XV suspension setup? Don't know, maybe. Then again, we might have been stuck in the garage trying to figure out how to make it work instead of getting on the track and having fun.

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Dan@Hotchkis] #1770320
03/11/15 03:47 PM
03/11/15 03:47 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1 Offline
super stock
Uhcoog1  Offline
super stock

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M




Does my suspension count as 'tuned stock' in your book? I still have factory control arms...

I track my car regularly and I can't wait to put it up against a TVS car on a roadcourse. David vs Goliath. DIY vs Corporate.

I think very highly of the TVS system. It is the benchmark that all others should be compared to IMO. And if I get dusted on track I'll have to call up Dan, hat in one hand, credit card in the other...




The stock stuff can do well, but the level of adjustibility on our stuff is unreal. I hope we can see you at an event in the future so at a minimum we could take you for a spin. I promise, you won't be disappointed!




How much more adjustability would I gain with TVS UCA's? I'm at 7.0* caster and -1.7* camber. I'm maxed out on caster at the -1.7* camber. Although I can get to 9.0* but with -3.0* camber. It would be nice to be able to run 9.0 caster at sub -2.0* camber.

Hoosiers are going on the car later this month. How far should I go with the alignment? I'm thinking -2.7 & 8.5ish.


Thanks for the offer Dan. And I don't just want you to take me for a spin. I want to be on the same road course on the same day! So either you've got to come to texas or I'm waiting until the 'shootout' happens (I'll bring the car nearly anywhere for that).


-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? [Re: Uhcoog1] #1770321
03/11/15 05:12 PM
03/11/15 05:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger Offline
master
72Swinger  Offline
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Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
I would definitely go for 9* caster with our spindles that have a SAI of 8 ish. With the caster at 9, I see no reason to go MORE negative with your camber. The reason for increasing caster, into the stratosphere, is to be able to use LESS negative static camber which has the trade off of killing grip to the inside tire on every turn.


Mopar to the bone!!!
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