XV level II front suspension. Who is using it?

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 02:51 AM

Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

Not interested in manufacturer's claims, seen too many shenanigan's over the years. Like running 305 heads on a 350 and claiming 40+hp gain over "stock" heads.

Almost not interested in magazine claims, seen too many shill for the sponsor shenanigans too, unless it was a three way head to head, like stock vs XV vs RMS vs Hotchkis type article, if it exists.

I have seen articles were an aftermarket suspension was put on a Mopar and showed improvement, but they serious upgraded the tires and rims too, so who knows what did what and that, in my book, is not a real test of the suspension swap.

Posted By: cdoublejj

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 08:23 AM

Quote:

Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

Not interested in manufacturer's claims, seen too many shenanigan's over the years. Like running 305 heads on a 350 and claiming 40+hp gain over "stock" heads.

Almost not interested in magazine claims, seen too many shill for the sponsor shenanigans too, unless it was a three way head to head, like stock vs XV vs RMS vs Hotchkis type article, if it exists.

I have seen articles were an aftermarket suspension was put on a Mopar and showed improvement, but they serious upgraded the tires and rims too, so who knows what did what and that, in my book, is not a real test of the suspension swap.

well.... one of us would probably have to do it. I'm automatically out since the car has not been together running since before i was born.

I do the next best and thing and look at the setup and or technology,suspension style and see what other kinds of cars use it. same with the chassis.

like if it is an Independent front suspension we already know it allows for better articulation since the movement of one wheel doesn't disturb the other thusly improving the contact patch with the tire.

The best i have ever seen is with tires but, not suspension.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kASM04zuHlo

....well i guess there is this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufEpb_WIR0

not much. just basic Hotchkis bolt ons for a stock suspension.

at the very LEAST, i like videos like THIS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pfNBrrP88

^these^ videos at least show SOME sort of evidence of change or improvement.

THIS write up i think shows a before and after shot of suspension at work when cornering.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/hrdp-0712-irs-for-musclecars/

it's mustang and an IRS though, this is kind of stuff i look at since we don't have access to before and after videos which ultimately would king over all. Give me an idea on what kind of positive effect independent suspension, FRONT and rear can have on traction.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 04:13 PM

Quote:

Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

Not interested in manufacturer's claims, seen too many shenanigan's over the years. Like running 305 heads on a 350 and claiming 40+hp gain over "stock" heads.

Almost not interested in magazine claims, seen too many shill for the sponsor shenanigans too, unless it was a three way head to head, like stock vs XV vs RMS vs Hotchkis type article, if it exists.

I have seen articles were an aftermarket suspension was put on a Mopar and showed improvement, but they serious upgraded the tires and rims too, so who knows what did what and that, in my book, is not a real test of the suspension swap.

Not that I've ever seen. FWIW, I've never seen anything similar done on any of the Brand C or Brand F suspension providers either, and they are much more prolific than the Mopar providers. Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either.

I still firmly believe that the biggest gain most aftermarket users see is in the balanced spring set ups and matched shock rates they receive from the provider that they do not feel they can achieve themselves from the stock style components. Yes, there is some refined geometry improvements, lighter weight, and easy spring and ride height changes to go along with it, but those are refinements, not the core of the package.

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 04:16 PM

The bigeest improvement and difference will always begin with the "nut-behind-the-wheel" (the driver). Next, is the tires, and work your way inwards... but it eventually becomes an overall package of changes that'll make the final differences. Physics is the final law.. so.. choose your base platform wisely to begin with and plan carefully looking into your future wants/needs, etc. In other words, just don't spend a ton of $$$ and expect the best... consider improving your driving skills (track time = time and $$, driver's schools, etc) as part of the overall plan.

Excluding the variable club rules, I believe all of the XV setups were well designed for handling setups, especially their frame strengtheners (as their videos display). Personally, I don't have experience with the XV items... I prefer simple bolt-on type of mods. XV has kept some of their specs (TBs and leafspring rates) closed from anyone knowing what they are.

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 05:07 PM

The biggest plus with coil over suspensions is usually the ride. In the case of the XV stuff, as I'm the only one here with any real experience having worked on every car they ever sold, is they do ride really good but they have many drawbacks. At track speed they can perform well, but the tuning/springs rates as they were sold are far from optimized.
I know the bashing will start, but remember, just because I made a living at that place for almost 7 years, it doesn't mean I agreed with everything they did. I still had a boss to deal with.
IF (big IF) the product was further developed it could have been a truly world class solution for mopars. However, at this point, I feel there isn't enough of a market for this product which is why I never chose to pursue producing this type of product on my own.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 07:05 PM

One of the major mags, I want to say Car Craft, did a swap on a stock A body and showed numbers.

Here it is.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-sus...ymouth-valiant/

Drag race oriented suspension to Hotchkis, note tire changes too.

Not really a good comparison, like the 305 heads on a 350 one I mentioned. I wish they could have taken a regular MoPar suspension all scienced out then did the swap keeping tires and rims the same. More valid to me.

Posted By: Darius

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 09:19 PM

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Posted By: cudazappa

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 09:26 PM

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 10:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.

Thank you.

Hotchkis is stock based. RMS and XV are not.

Posted By: feets

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 11:02 PM

This is the article I thought of:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/hrdp-0909-mopar-suspension-bolt-ons/

They tested the car making one change at a time.

While it's not exactly a t-bar to coil over swap it does show where the biggest gains were found.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 11:11 PM

Pretty close, enough so to judge the merits of the Hotchkis setup. Be hard to do the same with an XV or RMS kit as they are pretty much an all or nothing swap.

Posted By: feets

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/10/15 11:25 PM

No doubt.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 12:05 AM

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Actually, that's what you did. The Hotchkis setup is based on the stock setup.

I agree. If need be, the Hotchkis Geometry Corrected system can be bought one component at a time. And, if memory serves, the Hotchkis TVS is less money than the RMS Alterkation setup. You'll drop another 2K for their Street Lynx out back. As near as I can tell, I would agree that there is no need to go with something like the XV or RMS, unless buying a bit of clear real estate under the hood is worth 4 grand to you...

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 12:09 AM

Quote:

This is the article I thought of:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/hrdp-0909-mopar-suspension-bolt-ons/

They tested the car making one change at a time.

While it's not exactly a t-bar to coil over swap it does show where the biggest gains were found.

I'd be curious to see all the runs and how much variation there was with just the driver per setup.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 03:16 AM

Thank-you! Correcting or improving on the system that already existed is MUCH different, IMHO, than a system that in no way resembles the factory system. That's not to say that EITHER school of thought is wrong, but you don't always have to think outside the box for a radical improvement. And while subframe connectors may not have been an option from the factory, Mopar's own racing programs have been singing their praises for over 40 years...saw a 401 Gremlin once that was so twisted from high RPM clutch drops that the left front wheel no longer touched the ground...

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 03:43 AM

Pictures?

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 05:48 AM

Quote:

Pictures?

I wish...we were still in high school back in the 80's. Shoehorned the 401/4-speed in in shop class. Those were the days...

Posted By: Kern Dog

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 06:17 AM

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.

Posted By: cdoublejj

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 06:40 AM

Quote:

Thank-you! Correcting or improving on the system that already existed is MUCH different, IMHO, than a system that in no way resembles the factory system. That's not to say that EITHER school of thought is wrong, but you don't always have to think outside the box for a radical improvement. And while subframe connectors may not have been an option from the factory, Mopar's own racing programs have been singing their praises for over 40 years...saw a 401 Gremlin once that was so twisted from high RPM clutch drops that the left front wheel no longer touched the ground...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pfNBrrP88

same issue with the sub frame on 2001 maxima and why all the guys see notable improvement when using giant washers on sub frame bolts in liu of new rubber grommets.

Puts all the force on the suspension and NOT the body/unibody. when you hits bumps and corner hard.

Posted By: cdoublejj

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 06:58 AM

Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.

Well I think reading that i'll be sure not brag about that. That's really good point, what can say if you never had chance to compare to factory/spec properly maintained!

I can at least says i'm not getting such kit just because but, because i have some understanding of how they work and why. I'm looking for as much improvement as i can get as my wallet wallet will allow and i've done a lot of research.

at the very least i know the new trasngeder kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.

All in not to say the factory stuff is junk but, that want i even better, all i get.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 12:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.

Well I think reading that i'll be sure not brag about that. That's really good point, what can say if you never had chance to compare to factory/spec properly maintained!

I can at least says i'm not getting such kit just because but, because i have some understanding of how they work and why. I'm looking for as much improvement as i can get as my wallet wallet will allow and i've done a lot of research.

at the very least i know the new trasngeder kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.

All in not to say the factory stuff is junk but, that want i even better, all i get.

Well drunk posting sure helps make your point.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 03:56 PM

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Does my suspension count as 'tuned stock' in your book? I still have factory control arms...

I track my car regularly and I can't wait to put it up against a TVS car on a roadcourse. David vs Goliath. DIY vs Corporate.

I think very highly of the TVS system. It is the benchmark that all others should be compared to IMO. And if I get dusted on track I'll have to call up Dan, hat in one hand, credit card in the other...

Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 04:07 PM

Quote:

" Additionally, like you mention, the magazine articles on upgrades also tend to be worn original suspension with wheel/tire upgrades as part of the package, so it difficult to discern the exact amount of improvement the system provides. No one has taken an optimized stock layout against the aftermarket units either."

GREAT point. I have said this for years. Take a well balanced fresh Mopar suspension and steering setup and compare it against the aftermarket kits. The aftermarket stuff might perform better, it might not. I'm tired of hearing so many guys brag about how their "ditching the factory junk" for the Magnum Force Transgender system or another aftermarket setup. Most of the time, these cars are in need of a full front end rebuild so any change seems like an improvement over the 400,000 mile stuff the car has in it.

Tom K can answer that question. We did his 69 Barracuda with all factory stuff and his Valiant with all the Hotchkis stuff.

Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 04:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You guys can argue this to death but I will say this, again, I am NOT a racer of any kind, there is absolutely NO WAY you could tune a stock suspension and get the level of handling I got on my 69 Dart when I installed a Hotchkiss TVS ! M

Does my suspension count as 'tuned stock' in your book? I still have factory control arms...

I track my car regularly and I can't wait to put it up against a TVS car on a roadcourse. David vs Goliath. DIY vs Corporate.

I think very highly of the TVS system. It is the benchmark that all others should be compared to IMO. And if I get dusted on track I'll have to call up Dan, hat in one hand, credit card in the other...

The stock stuff can do well, but the level of adjustibility on our stuff is unreal. I hope we can see you at an event in the future so at a minimum we could take you for a spin. I promise, you won't be disappointed!

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 05:47 PM

Quote:

at the very least i know the new transgender kit has more adjust ability than of stock, not say the stock can't be adjusted or made to be adjustable. And also i know what kind of usage/racing i want to do.

Quote:

The stock stuff can do well, but the level of adjustibility on our stuff is unreal.

This is the crux of the stock stuff, IMO. It isn't bad, it actually was great compared to its contemporaries back then, but its adjustability does not allow it to easily translate into modern specs where the best improvements lie. Can you modify it to get there, sure. Some of the newer pieces can get you there easier and faster.

We also can't discount the simple bling factor of new suspension systems that some people want. I'm sure any of us could point to four digit horsepower parking lot cruisers we have seen. The simple desire to want something shiny or new doesn't discount the desire and make it invalid. Its not our place to judge anyone who prefers the new coil over set ups as posers compared to someone willing to work with the stock junk to make it functional. Really, who cares what they use. Whether that use is driving to a parking lot to sit and polish the fender or driving to a parking lot to tear up asphalt, at least they are both out there taking pride in their vehicle.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 06:09 PM

Quote:

Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

Not interested in manufacturer's claims, seen too many shenanigan's over the years. Like running 305 heads on a 350 and claiming 40+hp gain over "stock" heads.

Almost not interested in magazine claims, seen too many shill for the sponsor shenanigans too, unless it was a three way head to head, like stock vs XV vs RMS vs Hotchkis type article, if it exists.

I have seen articles were an aftermarket suspension was put on a Mopar and showed improvement, but they serious upgraded the tires and rims too, so who knows what did what and that, in my book, is not a real test of the suspension swap.

It would cost a small fortune to do a valid A-B-C-D-E type of test with all of the aftermarket systems. Maybe $100K worth of parts and test costs by the time you rent a track and hire a driver and all of that. So no, I'm pretty confident that nobody will ever do that test.

I will say that Tim and I spent a lot of time looking at every available aftermarket setup. We're both engineers and he is a very highly trained driver. We had a budget, but we could've bought any system on the market and stayed in our budget.

Our analysis was that for a street driven track car, a stock based system is still the best choice. The XV stuff is probably the most advanced system on the market, but it is a huge change from the stock stuff and requires a big learning curve to fully optimize it.

Now I suppose we might have changed our minds if there had a been a Mopar guy with a fast car who was running the XV system. But when we looked around at real cars who spend real time on real tracks, the vast majority of those cars are running stock based suspensions.

The "pro touring" type of cars don't seem to show up at the track much. Or at least we didn't see much of them.

Tim's Valiant would go to the track and compete very well against Vipers, Vettes, Porsche, etc. He was usually the only classic Mopar at the track. Would the car have been even faster with a full XV suspension setup? Don't know, maybe. Then again, we might have been stuck in the garage trying to figure out how to make it work instead of getting on the track and having fun.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 09:12 PM

I would definitely go for 9* caster with our spindles that have a SAI of 8 ish. With the caster at 9, I see no reason to go MORE negative with your camber. The reason for increasing caster, into the stratosphere, is to be able to use LESS negative static camber which has the trade off of killing grip to the inside tire on every turn.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 09:40 PM

Quote:

I would definitely go for 9* caster with our spindles that have a SAI of 8 ish. With the caster at 9, I see no reason to go MORE negative with your camber. The reason for increasing caster, into the stratosphere, is to be able to use LESS negative static camber which has the trade off of killing grip to the inside tire on every turn.

Unfortunately I can't get to 9* without also going to -2.7 or so camber...

You're de-railing my argument that I don't need aftermarket UCA's. haha.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 10:24 PM

I think the best made arms are Hotchkis, hands down. I like the SPC's from Bergmann too. Im using heimed RMS.

Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/11/15 11:59 PM

Quote:

How much more adjustability would I gain with TVS UCA's? I'm at 7.0* caster and -1.7* camber. I'm maxed out on caster at the -1.7* camber. Although I can get to 9.0* but with -3.0* camber. It would be nice to be able to run 9.0 caster at sub -2.0* camber.

Hoosiers are going on the car later this month. How far should I go with the alignment? I'm thinking -2.7 & 8.5ish.

Exactly that. I've got cars set up in the 7.5-8* of caster with 2.5-3* of camber, and we've got cars that are at 9* of caster with 1* of camber.

Not to discount what you are saying, but are you confident on your numbers? I've NEVER been able to get stock arms over 4.5* of caster and as you said, with a whole mess of camber.
Are you cheating the system someplace else to increase your spindle inclination? (i.e. strut rods)

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/12/15 01:58 AM

Offset UCA bushings.

Maxed out:

Currently:

I'm under the impression that A bodies with offset bushings will go further than B/E. I don't have any support for that, though.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/12/15 02:02 AM

Wade make sure the Hotchkis arms will live with the rear mount calipers.

Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/12/15 02:06 AM

Quote:

Offset UCA bushings.

I'm under the impression that A bodies with offset bushings will go further than B/E. I don't have any support for that, though.

That is amazing. I've done a lot of a-bodies and I've NEVER been able to get one anywhere close to that.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/12/15 03:25 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Offset UCA bushings.

I'm under the impression that A bodies with offset bushings will go further than B/E. I don't have any support for that, though.

That is amazing. I've done a lot of a-bodies and I've NEVER been able to get one anywhere close to that.

Alignments were done at Bumbera's- a race shop in Katy. I'll go to a new shop next time to see if the numbers are different.

Posted By: tahoechallenge

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/12/15 04:03 AM

I don't care what system you use, it all comes down to your ability and patience to get things sorted out. Unless you have lots of experience with a particular part, very rarely do you bolt it on and get it right the first time.

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/13/15 04:09 AM

Why so much caster? I found with lots of caster the lifting of the body off center unsettling. I run 3-4 with 1.25-1.5 negative camber. Very predictable.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/13/15 06:14 AM

Ron Sutton has a few really informative discussions on ProTouring.com about front suspension setup. His thoughts are primarily from years and years of setting up everything from a 1/4 midget to NASCAR to LeMans. Keeping the tires as flat as possible with the tarmac to achieve maximum grip possible. He has figured out that caster needs to be at least one degree more positive than the KPI/SAI measurement of the spindle you're using as a general base. I have roughly measured my 73+ A body spindles at 7.5*.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 06:22 AM

Quote:

Sorry I'm not active enough for you there usually no reason to reply to thread when the answer is already there I just figured I would add my exspericance with my purchase

Nice Chrome Springs!!!!

CR

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 06:38 AM

Quote:

Ron Sutton has a few really informative discussions on ProTouring.com about front suspension setup. His thoughts are primarily from years and years of setting up everything from a 1/4 midget to NASCAR to LeMans. Keeping the tires as flat as possible with the tarmac to achieve maximum grip possible. He has figured out that caster needs to be at least one degree more positive than the KPI/SAI measurement of the spindle you're using as a general base. I have roughly measured my 73+ A body spindles at 7.5*.

I guess i missed this post, great information...

BTW I'm Chris Reinhardt, the guy behind XV Racing Products....

I've done A LOT of race car and kart road racing setups....

The camber will vary with a lot of variables, tire side wall and composition, rim size and width, yadda, yadda yadda... There isn't any hard and fast number. One of the best ways we do it is by checking tire temps across the width of the tire, and pressure increase. Once you get the pressure equalized, then you look for even temps across the tire. Too hot on the inside, too much neg, too hot on the outside, too much pos... Pretty simple... Different tracks demand different amounts also... Lime Rock is a real good example... A fast car around Lime Rock is setup to turn right more so than the only left hander...

CR

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 04:44 PM

The Ron Sutton front suspension set in regards to alignment is very interesting. It has never been explained to me this way before. However, I'm going to assume the correct spring rates will help counteract the body lift typical on the inside wheel. My SPC arms will easily go to 8.5 deg caster.. The SAI on a 73 and up disc spindle is 7.5 deg.

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 08:04 PM

I have the XV Level II. Had it on the car for 5 years or so. It's a very good suspension, I've raced the car on a roadcourse several times, I've used the car for vacation/long trips and just cruising the streets. The only thing I have done to it is change the stock (Corvette C5) uprights for LG Motorsports Billet drop spindles to get the rideheight right (with the right alignment). No bumpsteer issues whatsoever. I can highly recommend it.

I do agree that a proper setup stock suspension like Hotchkis or the XV Level I would be good alternatives and probably just as capable (have never tried one of those tho) on the streets. However the XV has the weight reduction and the Rack and Pinion that is just a dream to steer.

With the original C5 upright.

The LG Motorsports drop upright.

With the LG installed.

After a track session with rubber build-up on the tires.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 08:37 PM

Quote:

The Ron Sutton front suspension set in regards to alignment is very interesting. It has never been explained to me this way before. However, I'm going to assume the correct spring rates will help counteract the body lift typical on the inside wheel. My SPC arms will easily go to 8.5 deg caster.. The SAI on a 73 and up disc spindle is 7.5 deg.

I agree with what he says enough to at least try it. I know a lot of his experience probabaly revolved around making a set of tires last as many laps as possible so you don't have the car life or death on the outer tires ability to grip.

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 08:56 PM

When you say "bumpsteer is not a problem" what do you mean? Did you measure it? In my experience toe change through the travel is excessive on those front ends. Since ATS went under, I though someone else made a knuckle with a drop arm. That would eliminate the need for the spacers at the tie rod end. It would create a much stronger connection along with the ability to bring the bumpsteer into a normal range.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 09:10 PM

Looks great. The stack of washers on the tie rod is kind of a bummer though, especially with a billet knuckle. If they changed a few lines of code the tie rod arm could've been dropped on that knuckle and you wouldn't need the spacers. That would tighten things up a little bit since that long lever arm probably wiggles a bit on turn-in.

If you spend those pictures to LG and give them the measurement I bet they can build you new knuckles. Or perhaps XV could introduce some knuckles with the correct arm placement? The billet is nice since it can be easily reprogrammed for ride height. Cost is higher though of course.

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 09:17 PM

Quote:

Looks great. The stack of washers on the tie rod is kind of a bummer though, especially with a billet knuckle. If they changed a few lines of code the tie rod arm could've been dropped on that knuckle and you wouldn't need the spacers. That would tighten things up a little bit since that long lever arm probably wiggles a bit on turn-in.

If you spend those pictures to LG and give them the measurement I bet they can build you new knuckles. Or perhaps XV could introduce some knuckles with the correct arm placement? The billet is nice since it can be easily reprogrammed for ride height. Cost is higher though of course.

Its a C5/C6, a drop arm is already made.

Posted By: AndyF

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 10:47 PM

The billet one could be modified into a drop arm by welding if it is 6061. Might be 7075 though.

The tie rod spacers on this kit (as well as other kits) was one of the main reasons Tim and I never made the switch on his Valiant. It just seems like poor engineering practice to have your steering input made thru a long and unsupported lever arm. It would be interesting to see how much that are deflects during use. Maybe it isn't as much as I'm thinking.

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/16/15 11:16 PM

I agree with the poor engineering design regarding a lever, but the real fly in the ointment in this application ks the washer stand off inducing twist in the arm IMO. However since it is only steering inputs, I think the loads/deflection are way overated by most. And want to make sure everyone understands 7075 is not a weldable as a useable material. But as I mentioned way back, welding stressed 6061 suspension/continuously reversed loaded non redundant critical suspension items should be a big no no, or at least understand their useful life is finite. The good news is, visible cracks can offer an advance warning of impending doom.

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 12:09 AM

Quote:

When you say "bumpsteer is not a problem" what do you mean? Did you measure it?

No, I didn't measure it, but then agian it's not a racecar, it's a hot rod. I'm not a racer, I'm a regular car guy. Everyone seems to be chasing tenths...
Anyway, the bumpsteer is not a problem with this setup, we have bad roads here in Norway, so I know. It has less bumpsteer than my 2013 Audi A7.

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 12:12 AM

Quote:

The billet one could be modified into a drop arm by welding if it is 6061.

It's a 6061-T6, and also it's an extrusion.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 12:47 AM

Quote:

No, I didn't measure it, but then agian it's not a racecar, it's a hot rod. I'm not a racer, I'm a regular car guy. Everyone seems to be chashing tenths...
Anyway, the bumpsteer is not a problem with this setup, we have bad roads here in Norway, so I know. It has less bumpsteer than my 2013 Audi A7.

You have a very nice car!

What is your definition of bump steer?

This is a common subject of obscurity for many people and it would be helpful to hear which side you are coming from.

When I see a highly modified suspension with stacks of washers locating a tie rod end, I do tend to question the "it has less bump steer than a 2013 Audi" statement. It doesn't take much, at all, to induce bump steer in a suspension. Some people are luckier than others though!

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 12:50 AM

http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/dimages/700x500-V5syM4A7a6vKI2cx207309.jpg

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 02:04 AM

Thanks Goody

My defenision on bump steer is just how the car behaves on the street when I hit a hole or a bump in a corner. Does the car alter direction? Does the suspension get unsettled? Does it loose grip? No it doesn't. I might get to borrow a bump steer gauge to measure, but no promises

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 02:13 AM

Don't take it personal. I promise that steering arm gets twisted in certain loads. Its just a "this mofo has too damn much leverage on me" situation. Those spindles are gorgeous, they just needed "modular" steering arms.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 02:21 AM

Quote:

Thanks Goody
My defenision on bump steer is just how the car behaves on the street when I hit a hole or a bump in a corner. Does the car alter direction? Does the suspension get unsettled? Does it loose grip? No it doesn't. I might get to borrow a bump steer gauge to measure, but no promises

Fair enough, it is something that can certainly be improved in most case, just keep it in mind. A setup like this is ripe to be dialed in.

I'm certain you have found the limitations of the car, it will not take every corner as fast as you want, right?

It would be worth checking into to be sure you are getting the most out of your setup, but if you're happy with it, drive the wheels off of it. I would!

I could see a machined and/or welded support to that spacer setup you have to the bottom side of the shown knuckle. Tap some threads and bolt it on there. It would help reduce your compliance and anything you can help the robustness of your steering is a good idea.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 02:57 AM

That's some serious tire melting!!!

Joakim, was this with the new shock rebuild, or before?

On the bump steer shaft... You have to have some way to adjust it, you can't just figure what the best height is and mill the steering arm to it. If you did that, then you're ride height would have to fixed also.

That's a tapered shaft that fits into the C5/C6 upright, it's used on every kind of production car without issues... Think about the load on that tiny shaft inside that tie rod...

CR

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 03:10 AM

Quote:

I have the XV Level II. Had it on the car for 5 years or so. It's a very good suspension, I've raced the car on a roadcourse several times, I've used the car for vacation/long trips and just cruising the streets. The only thing I have done to it is change the stock (Corvette C5) uprights for LG Motorsports Billet drop spindles to get the rideheight right (with the right alignment). No bumpsteer issues whatsoever. I can highly recommend it.

I do agree that a proper setup stock suspension like Hotchkis or the XV Level I would be good alternatives and probably just as capable (have never tried one of those tho) on the streets. However the XV has the weight reduction and the Rack and Pinion that is just a dream to steer.

With the original C5 upright.

After a track session with rubber build-up on the tires.

BTW, you have the links for the sway bar in upside down!!! Female joint on top, so the moisture doesn't settle in it and rust up solid!!!

CR

Posted By: 73MagDuster

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 03:15 AM

Quote:

The billet one could be modified into a drop arm by welding if it is 6061. Might be 7075 though.

The tie rod spacers on this kit (as well as other kits) was one of the main reasons Tim and I never made the switch on his Valiant. It just seems like poor engineering practice to have your steering input made thru a long and unsupported lever arm. It would be interesting to see how much that are deflects during use. Maybe it isn't as much as I'm thinking.

It probably is Andy, but not the load and resulting deflection during normal steering isn't a big concern. The concern is the large load transferred from the knuckle into the tie rods when you drop a wheel or both in a pot hole or washout. Huge spike in loads, especially if you are on the brakes. That's where I see the potential for a sudden failure and loss of control.

Food for thought on a different debate with coil-over conversions: The need to brace the shock towers and rails. The high loading in the front suspension comes when you compress into the jounce bumpers, which are mounted to the front rails. If you leave the jounce loads on the rail, I don't believe there is any reason to go crazy with the bracing for the towers. Do you need some? Absolutely. But again the real loads are still absorbed by the rails like Ma Mopar intended. Coil overs are introducing a slightly higher fatigue load into the towers but in the grand scheme, not much. Of course the only way to prove this is mega dollar data acquisition, it's much easier to throw a little more bracing at it.

Just a few thoughts from my experience in data acquisition and suspension testing.

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 03:20 AM

Yeah, but Ma never intended the normal suspension loads to be handled by the shock tower. That intended load bearing part is the rear torsion bar mounts. So rather than a catastrophic failure due to shock loading I suspect a slow inward creep of the towers, much like early mudstains.

I'd suggest bracing be mandatory.

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 03:47 AM

He makes good point though that when up against the bumpers all the additional load is all on the rails, and more importantly, even though the TB rear crossmember is the first frame location to handle suspension loads, it then needs to transfer force to the huge block of iron, etc cantilevered in front of it, which is handled by the rails and reinforced by the shock towers. Additional bracing is of course good regardless, but the front end structure might a bit more robust as a unit then most give it credit for, IMO.

Posted By: cdoublejj

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 04:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The billet one could be modified into a drop arm by welding if it is 6061. Might be 7075 though.

The tie rod spacers on this kit (as well as other kits) was one of the main reasons Tim and I never made the switch on his Valiant. It just seems like poor engineering practice to have your steering input made thru a long and unsupported lever arm. It would be interesting to see how much that are deflects during use. Maybe it isn't as much as I'm thinking.

It probably is Andy, but not the load and resulting deflection during normal steering isn't a big concern. The concern is the large load transferred from the knuckle into the tie rods when you drop a wheel or both in a pot hole or washout. Huge spike in loads, especially if you are on the brakes. That's where I see the potential for a sudden failure and loss of control.

Food for thought on a different debate with coil-over conversions: The need to brace the shock towers and rails. The high loading in the front suspension comes when you compress into the jounce bumpers, which are mounted to the front rails. If you leave the jounce loads on the rail, I don't believe there is any reason to go crazy with the bracing for the towers. Do you need some? Absolutely. But again the real loads are still absorbed by the rails like Ma Mopar intended. Coil overs are introducing a slightly higher fatigue load into the towers but in the grand scheme, not much. Of course the only way to prove this is mega dollar data acquisition, it's much easier to throw a little more bracing at it.

Just a few thoughts from my experience in data acquisition and suspension testing.

The same frame rails that are spot welded/ welded to the unibody that has flex! one of the reasons i mention the frame stiffening kits.

Quote:

Yeah, but Ma never intended the normal suspension loads to be handled by the shock tower. That intended load bearing part is the rear torsion bar mounts. So rather than a catastrophic failure due to shock loading I suspect a slow inward creep of the towers, much like early mudstains.

I'd suggest bracing be mandatory.

Indeed!

Again the frame rails don't go all the way through on a unibody, this is why i like the UScartool frame rail connectors/stiffening kit so darn much. I have heard only good things about them.

Also ones of the reason i like the "strut bars" the Magnum force transgender kit too major down side being having to cut in the fender walls/wells if you wants turbos or so it seems form the photos i have seen since the strut bars do take up what can be valuable engine bay space.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 06:56 AM

Quote:

Thanks Goody
My defenision on bump steer is just how the car behaves on the street when I hit a hole or a bump in a corner. Does the car alter direction? Does the suspension get unsettled? Does it loose grip? No it doesn't. I might get to borrow a bump steer gauge to measure, but no promises

Those three re-actions/phenomena could be from bad Bump Steer Geometry or could very well be a result of a number of other issues. Like worn suspension, geometry deflection, incorrect shocks,

You could have bad Bump Steer Geometry, but it's just not giving you enough of those three cornering behaviors to feel uncomfortable. Sometimes you sub-consciously correct for small things.

You might be off on bump steer, change it, and feel an improvement. Or change it for better number and not feel any difference whatsoever at all.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 06:57 AM

Quote:

http://shop.ronsuttonracetechnology.com/dimages/700x500-V5syM4A7a6vKI2cx207309.jpg

Looks very similar in idea to a Coleman full fab spindle/upright that's been out for a decade.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 10:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The billet one could be modified into a drop arm by welding if it is 6061. Might be 7075 though.

The tie rod spacers on this kit (as well as other kits) was one of the main reasons Tim and I never made the switch on his Valiant. It just seems like poor engineering practice to have your steering input made thru a long and unsupported lever arm. It would be interesting to see how much that are deflects during use. Maybe it isn't as much as I'm thinking.

It probably is Andy, but not the load and resulting deflection during normal steering isn't a big concern. The concern is the large load transferred from the knuckle into the tie rods when you drop a wheel or both in a pot hole or washout. Huge spike in loads, especially if you are on the brakes. That's where I see the potential for a sudden failure and loss of control.

Food for thought on a different debate with coil-over conversions: The need to brace the shock towers and rails. The high loading in the front suspension comes when you compress into the jounce bumpers, which are mounted to the front rails. If you leave the jounce loads on the rail, I don't believe there is any reason to go crazy with the bracing for the towers. Do you need some? Absolutely. But again the real loads are still absorbed by the rails like Ma Mopar intended. Coil overs are introducing a slightly higher fatigue load into the towers but in the grand scheme, not much. Of course the only way to prove this is mega dollar data acquisition, it's much easier to throw a little more bracing at it.

Just a few thoughts from my experience in data acquisition and suspension testing.

Our Coilovers are not connected to the inner fender directly. We have a upper control arm mount/Coilover mount that gets welded to the frame rail where the old upper control mount is. The need to brace the engine compartment and the rest of the chassis does add to the total rigidity of the chassis as a whole...

Attached picture 8462615-ControlArmMount_1.jpg

Attached picture 8462615-ControlArmMount_1.jpg

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 07:29 PM

Quote:

I'm certain you have found the limitations of the car, it will not take every corner as fast as you want, right?

It would be worth checking into to be sure you are getting the most out of your setup, but if you're happy with it, drive the wheels off of it. I would!

I haven't pushed it past it's limits yet, It handles more that I have balls to do. But I guess with those massive 335s in the rear it would eventually push the front end. So to answer your question; No, haven't found a corner that I tought I wanted to do faster! Not on the street anyway.

I am very happy with the setup. It has a 54.7/45.4% front/rear weight ratio, with an iron headed SB. I will cornerweigh and adjust the coilovers this summer. Then with the rideheight set I could use the bumpsteer gauge.

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 07:34 PM

Quote:

That's some serious tire melting!!!

Joakim, was this with the new shock rebuild, or before?

On the bump steer shaft... You have to have some way to adjust it, you can't just figure what the best height is and mill the steering arm to it. If you did that, then you're ride height would have to fixed also.

That's a tapered shaft that fits into the C5/C6 upright, it's used on every kind of production car without issues... Think about the load on that tiny shaft inside that tie rod...

CR

This was before the rebuild. That tapered shaft was one hard SOB to remove from the C5 upright when I changed to the LG! No flex there.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 07:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm certain you have found the limitations of the car, it will not take every corner as fast as you want, right?

It would be worth checking into to be sure you are getting the most out of your setup, but if you're happy with it, drive the wheels off of it. I would!

I haven't pushed it past it's limits yet, It handles more that I have balls to do. But I guess with those massive 335s in the rear it would eventually push the front end. So to answer your question; No, haven't found a corner that I tought I wanted to do faster! Not on the street anyway.

I am very happy with the setup. It has a 54.7/45.4% front/rear weight ratio, with an iron headed SB. I will cornerweigh and adjust the coilovers this summer. Then with the rideheight set I could use the bumpsteer gauge.

Nice weight percentage. Do you have a fiberglass hood and rear mounted battery?

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/17/15 08:42 PM

Quote:

Nice weight percentage. Do you have a fiberglass hood and rear mounted battery?

Yes. Optima Yellowtop.

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 02:55 AM

Quote:

Again the frame rails don't go all the way through on a unibody, this is why i like the UScartool frame rail connectors/stiffening kit so darn much. I have heard only good things about them.

Good to hear, I just ordered their entire chassis stiffening kit for my Barracuda.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 03:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Again the frame rails don't go all the way through on a unibody, this is why i like the UScartool frame rail connectors/stiffening kit so darn much. I have heard only good things about them.

Good to hear, I just ordered their entire chassis stiffening kit for my Barracuda.

Before they had there's, XV had their own system, ours works a little bit better....

We have the engine compartment brace they don't have....

I hope I'm not over stating the obvious, but we have it all from the chassis stiffening package, to the suspension kit, to the brake kits, I have rims and steering columns coming to the website soon... And everything was engineered to work together, tested, and bench marked.

This is the new 2 piece E Body

Attached picture 8463418-2_PC_E_BODY_BRACE_grande.jpg

Attached picture 8463418-2_PC_E_BODY_BRACE_grande.jpg

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 03:15 AM

This is the 3 Piece B Body...

Attached picture 8463432-Engine_Brace_1_grande.jpg

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 03:22 AM

No love for the A body

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 03:49 AM

We have inner fender braces and lower radiator supports for A Bodies...

There's not a lot of people wanting to invest in an A Body because of the resale of the vehicle when you're done. They just don't bring the top dollar like a B Body or certainly an E Body... Sorry....

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 04:02 AM

Quote:

Before they had there's, XV had their own system, ours works a little bit better....

Do you have some data or competitive testing to draw that conclusion?

I did look at XV before ordering the US Car Tool parts. The pricing was close, but XV didn't offer [at least from what I saw] the torque box set, which I need. I had to make one order and pay shipping from one vendor.

The engine bay brace is a nice piece, but I will be building my own for my car.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 04:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Before they had there's, XV had their own system, ours works a little bit better....

Do you have some data or competitive testing to draw that conclusion?

I did look at XV before ordering the US Car Tool parts. The pricing was close, but XV didn't offer [at least from what I saw] the torque box set, which I need. I had to make one order and pay shipping from one vendor.

The engine bay brace is a nice piece, but I will be building my own for my car.

I thought everybody knew???

As a matter of fact, I believe the XV products were the only ones tested in this manner???

I would have to drag out the data, I have it somewhere, but here's a picture of the chassis stiffness being tested. They found they didn't need the torque boxes, the system met their criteria...

There's a video somewhere of the testing, they showed a before with a "X" of tape across the engine bay and you could see the tape go slack when the body was twisted, and after, only a slight bit...

Attached picture 8463512-12740006.jpg

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 06:07 AM

Love that piece Chris! IMO the heims kill at least some of its effectiveness though! I think they need SOLID connection my friend. Something like this
http://www.tmrcustoms.com/store/index.ph...863638076e7b152
Or a setup like the Hotchkis Dart.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 11:34 AM

Quote:

Love that piece Chris! IMO the heims kill at least some of its effectiveness though! I think they need SOLID connection my friend. Something like this
http://www.tmrcustoms.com/store/index.ph...863638076e7b152
Or a setup like the Hotchkis Dart.

Actually, the Heim has no effect on the rigidity orientated the way it is. If is was mounted horizontally, then I would agree..

What it does do is allow the bar to be adjusted to fit every vehicle perfectly, because we know none of these cars are exactly the same, and that fit has a bigger impact on how well the bar works.

The Hotchkis Dart, has tubes welded from the frame rails to the firewall, and cage also, at that point you would better off clipping the car with some box tubing and be done with it. Really like comparing apples and oranges....

MuuMuu, maybe you missed it, but I posted. I found that they achieved 9800lbs per degree of twist, which I believe is better than a C7 Corvette..

CR

Posted By: AndyF

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 06:15 PM

The testing that XV did originally was first rate. I knew the company was doomed as soon as I saw how much money they were spending on testing! Nobody makes enough money in this industry to afford that kind of testing. Most people just build stuff and sell it. A few folks are able to do some testing on the side on a small sample of race cars or stuff like that. Real data on a shaker table is hard to come by.

Posted By: Mopar Mitch

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 06:57 PM

Chris -- Does the E-body upper brace you've picture fit with a SB factory 6-pack setup (incldg the factory air cleaner base)?

Also, what's the weight of the upper brace? (Adding more weight to the car, in particular the front end, is a concern to me.)

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/18/15 10:14 PM

Quote:

Chris -- Does the E-body upper brace you've picture fit with a SB factory 6-pack setup (incldg the factory air cleaner base)?

Also, what's the weight of the upper brace? (Adding more weight to the car, in particular the front end, is a concern to me.)

I believe we test fit that brace in just about everything, and with the removable bar, it allows even more of an adjustment.

The only installed pictures I have are with GenIII Hemi's, but this should give you an idea. Call me in the shop, and I can give you some measurements.

The shipping weight with the box is about 17lbs, so figure 15lbs or so...

Attached picture 8464109-2006_02270047.jpg

Attached picture 8464109-2006_02270047.jpg

Posted By: jvike

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 12:45 AM

Quote:

Chris -- Does the E-body upper brace you've picture fit with a SB factory 6-pack setup (incldg the factory air cleaner base)?

Also, what's the weight of the upper brace? (Adding more weight to the car, in particular the front end, is a concern to me.)

I have a 340 (4bbl) and had to modify the XV engine brace to make it fit around the distributor. Easy fix.

Also I've uploaded the entire XV DVD on youtube if y'all want to see the engineering behind the products.
XV DVD

Posted By: GoodysGotaCuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 02:44 AM

Quote:

Also I've uploaded the entire XV DVD on youtube if y'all want to see the engineering behind the products.
XV DVD

Thanks, watched 'em all. Very interesting

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 03:43 AM

I'm not buying the heims rationalization. I don't like mid unsupported bends in tubing, I don't like tube braces that do not share a node at their termination, I don't see why the relatively thin sheet metal inner fender needs support 4+" above a the nearest suspension point, I don't know how much stiffness an attachment to the firewall provides mid center panel, and I haven't needed to see any numbers/calcs/testing to make the above claims. Haven't heard that torque boxes are little improvement before, which I agree with totally and have postulated for years once frame connectors are installed. But people like to add stuff under the heading "it can't hurt".

Posted By: astjp2

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 03:59 AM

Quote:

No love for the A body

That's because they are UGLY

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 04:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

No love for the A body

That's because they are UGLY

Pot calling kettle ...

Posted By: astjp2

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 04:10 AM

Quote:

I'm not buying the heims rationalization. I don't like mid unsupported bends in tubing, I don't like tube braces that do not share a node at their termination, I don't see why the relatively thin sheet metal inner fender needs support 4+" above a the nearest suspension point, I don't know how much stiffness an attachment to the firewall provides mid center panel, and I haven't needed to see any numbers/calcs/testing to make the above claims. Haven't heard that torque boxes are little improvement before, which I agree with totally and have postulated for years once frame connectors are installed. But people like to add stuff under the heading "it can't hurt".

Tell that to tube and fabric aircraft manufacturers or sheetmetal aircraft builders who use tubing engine mounts, they attach tubing to sheetmetal that is only .032-.040 thick and it holds up to way more torsional stresses from a propeller or turbine, centrifugal force from a propeller on a tubing engine mount that is .058 thick is tremendous on a 520 cubic inch 6 cylinder engine. Think of the power pulse from a 5.5" diameter piston. Granted its only 2700 rpms but it also puts out about 800 ftlbs of torque in a 260 hp engine. Put a few bends in the sheetmetal where the mount bolts to it and its rigid. Tim

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 05:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

No love for the A body

That's because they are UGLY

very true, especially from the rear...

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/19/15 12:19 PM

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Chris -- Does the E-body upper brace you've picture fit with a SB factory 6-pack setup (incldg the factory air cleaner base)?

Also, what's the weight of the upper brace? (Adding more weight to the car, in particular the front end, is a concern to me.)

I have a 340 (4bbl) and had to modify the XV engine brace to make it fit around the distributor. Easy fix.

Joakim,thanks for posting that....

CR

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/20/15 04:10 PM

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I'm not buying the heims rationalization. I don't like mid unsupported bends in tubing, I don't like tube braces that do not share a node at their termination, I don't see why the relatively thin sheet metal inner fender needs support 4+" above a the nearest suspension point, I don't know how much stiffness an attachment to the firewall provides mid center panel, and I haven't needed to see any numbers/calcs/testing to make the above claims. Haven't heard that torque boxes are little improvement before, which I agree with totally and have postulated for years once frame connectors are installed. But people like to add stuff under the heading "it can't hurt".

Tell that to tube and fabric aircraft manufacturers or sheetmetal aircraft builders who use tubing engine mounts, they attach tubing to sheetmetal that is only .032-.040 thick and it holds up to way more torsional stresses from a propeller or turbine, centrifugal force from a propeller on a tubing engine mount that is .058 thick is tremendous on a 520 cubic inch 6 cylinder engine. Think of the power pulse from a 5.5" diameter piston. Granted its only 2700 rpms but it also puts out about 800 ftlbs of torque in a 260 hp engine. Put a few bends in the sheetmetal where the mount bolts to it and its rigid. Tim

I think You missed the point, not sure your example is valid, torsional stresses from suspension loads when you talking as one member pointed out 9800lbs per degree are a lot higher then your example. Not sure anybody drops the clutch at 5K on an airplane. The problem with the pictured solution is for one, where the brace connects to the firewall, I bet one can almost by hand bend the sheet metal, but it the brace was moved up only say 4"?, it would near a 90 degree bend and be magnitudes stiffer. Nobody sees this? On the shock tower mount ends the reverse is trus, they are mounted near the bend in the inner fender, which is great if one wants to prevent a fender from flexing/moving, but if the real objective is to firm up the nearby upper control arm suspension points, a thin flat piece of sheet metal connecting the two ain't gonna make it happen. What about my other points, they stand valid by default?

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/20/15 05:09 PM

I would think the triangle is more likely to keep the body/sheetmetal square (in just the horizontal plane), than chassis/frame control.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/20/15 05:55 PM

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I would think the triangle is more likely to keep the body/sheetmetal square (in just the horizontal plane), than chassis/frame control.

A couple of things here....

There aren't many flat sections of sheet metal on the car, pretty much everything has a bend, curve, or brake to it. Flat sheet by itself, has little strengths in the one direction, put a 90* brake in it, it stiffens up quite a bit. Entire aircraft and race cars are constructed in what is called "monocoque" construction that way, basically the way a unibody works. A cowl section of a unibody car is probably the most substantial, and strongest part of the car for obvious reasons.

The engine brace does two things: We stitch weld up the inner fenders,and some of the torque of the frame rail is transmitted into the inner fender, which is tied to the cowl from the inner fender brace on the one side, and the engine brace cross bar helps keep them from flexing inward and also transmits some of the load back to the cowl with the other bars.

We can armchair engineer this all day long, but the fact is that every part of our chassis stiffening package was tested and bench marked, and delivered something like 9800# per degree of twist.

Sorry to ramble on.....

CR

Posted By: BigBlockMopar

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/20/15 06:01 PM

No rambling noticed, just a nice explanation of it's function.
Never hurts to hear/see the intented way a part is supposed to work.

Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/20/15 10:38 PM

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We can armchair engineer this all day long, but the fact is that every part of our chassis stiffening package was tested and bench marked, and delivered something like 9800# per degree of twist.

CR

Just curious, what's the degree of twist for an unstiffened chassis?

Posted By: ntstlgl1970

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/21/15 01:55 AM

If you haven't seen the XV 4 post chassis stiffness video, it's worth a watch....they show the before and after. Pretty cool stuff

Posted By: MuuMuu101

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/21/15 01:56 AM

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If you haven't seen the XV 4 post chassis stiffness video, it's worth a watch....they show the before and after. Pretty cool stuff

I haven't. I'm assuming it was in that DVD thing posted earlier. Maybe I'll take a look at it when I have free time.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/21/15 03:17 AM

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We can armchair engineer this all day long, but the fact is that every part of our chassis stiffening package was tested and bench marked, and delivered something like 9800# per degree of twist.

CR

Just curious, what's the degree of twist for an unstiffened chassis?

Honestly, I haven't been able to locate that data, there's a ton of it to go through...

The thing to understand is that the data collected was done by an independent company that specializes in vehicle dynamics and optimization... The rating is based on an industry standard, kinda like the way manufacturers give you a HP rating...

I don't know that they used the 4 post for torsional testing, I believe that was done on that static rig. The 4 post tested for shocks and spring rates, sway bars, tires stiffness, they even found a vibration that would be near impossible to find without it... Turned out to be flex in the rear upper shock mount and was fixed with a simple gusset.

Hope that helps...

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/21/15 02:54 PM

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The video states 9800 is that of the unstiffened chassis, equal to a modern day sedan. The stated goal was 15000, equal to a modern day sports car.

Video 3, 1:20-1:45

That sounds about right, it's a ton of raw data, and I'm not sure if the actual numbers were ever published...

Thanks for finding that....

CR

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/21/15 05:18 PM

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I would think the triangle is more likely to keep the body/sheetmetal square (in just the horizontal plane), than chassis/frame control.

A couple of things here....

There aren't many flat sections of sheet metal on the car, pretty much everything has a bend, curve, or brake to it. Flat sheet by itself, has little strengths in the one direction, put a 90* brake in it, it stiffens up quite a bit. Entire aircraft and race cars are constructed in what is called "monocoque" construction that way, basically the way a unibody works. A cowl section of a unibody car is probably the most substantial, and strongest part of the car for obvious reasons.

The engine brace does two things: We stitch weld up the inner fenders,and some of the torque of the frame rail is transmitted into the inner fender, which is tied to the cowl from the inner fender brace on the one side, and the engine brace cross bar helps keep them from flexing inward and also transmits some of the load back to the cowl with the other bars.

We can armchair engineer this all day long, but the fact is that every part of our chassis stiffening package was tested and bench marked, and delivered something like 9800# per degree of twist.

Sorry to ramble on.....

CR

We are going in circles here. The added brace is to stiffen the "strongest part of a car" or as "bigBlocK" mentioned to keep the cowl square?. The concern here is mainly where the brace attaches to the cowl, it is a poor choice unless mediocrity is acceptable. Moving it mere inches gives great bang for buck regarding attachment point stiffness, not which is its intended purpose.
So make the tubes straight without unsupported bends, make tubes terminate at a joint node, move attachment points as a close as possible to suspension points, lose the heims, and then back up number claims with before and after results, and we are good to go.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 05:45 AM

You can talk about effectiveness until your blue in the face, I agree moving it up would help, getting it closer to the pinch weld, and help clear the distributor. Another thing is the effectiveness with the coilovers vs T-bars.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 12:25 PM

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You can talk about effectiveness until your blue in the face, I agree moving it up would help, getting it closer to the pinch weld, and help clear the distributor. Another thing is the effectiveness with the coilovers vs T-bars.

There are a lot of constraints here also... The engine brace was design to fit a variety of engine, induction, and brake combinations. It was designed to fit big block, and 426 hemi cars and the main focus is of course the GenIII hemi's. Along with that is was made to clear the distributors of the big blocks and Hemi's, along with the piston AC compressors. It also clears the BB fresh air, air cleaner as well as the HEMI vacuum booster.

That's a lot of stuff to deal with!!!

And again, these were all tested on the rig and verified. So we can sit back in our chairs and say change this or change that, but everything has a cause and an effect and modeling everything the way they did, came up with the best overall solution.

If the chassis stiffness package wasn't so effective, people probably wouldn't be trying to copy it...

CR

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 04:03 PM

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If the chassis stiffness package wasn't so effective, people probably wouldn't be trying to copy it...

CR

Not trying to turn this into a bashfest on XV, but we highly motivated to ensure an improvement is such.

Using cheater copycats to validate your engineering is a pisspoor option. At best they validate your reputation without confirming that rep is valid, just popular.

If we cared about popular we'd be in Chevys.

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 07:07 PM

When exactly did XV Motorsports release laser cut subframe connectors? I'm pretty sure years ago when I bought a pair, US Car Tool was the only source.

I know for a fact XV Motorsports copied my Mustang Cobra based front and rear disc brake kits.

Posted By: 72Swinger

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 07:10 PM

IM not bashing either Chris, I am an A-body owner so what I think doesn't matter anyway. The Heims are probably fine in a coilover car but I know they are not IDEAL arresting TWIST with T-bars.

Posted By: XVracing

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/22/15 08:25 PM

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IM not bashing either Chris, I am an A-body owner so what I think doesn't matter anyway. The Heims are probably fine in a coilover car but I know they are not IDEAL arresting TWIST with T-bars.

And folks, this is how every one of these ends... People wonder why manufacturer's aren't more active in these forums...

If anybody wants any information or details, please PM, email, or call me at the shop...

CR

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 03:26 AM

I understand that its easy to get feelings hurt, but we are supposed to be grown ups, nobody is perfect, everything can be made better, and if iI don't make a critical comment, some else or your competitor will, and good engineering design is not arm chair engineering, and most manufacturers leave because they find it easier to close their ears then open their eyes. Yes, this is a tough crowd, and running off any manufacturer helps no one, and is never mine nor I suspect anyone else'e intent. Making a better product is. In my case my suggestions require very little effort to implement other then maybe eating at the absolute worst case a little crow and agreeing a slight change makes for an improvement. I don't see the problem. Wanting all glory and no heat for a product is not realistic. We want you to succeed, if you are listening.

Posted By: autoxcuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 04:10 AM

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I understand that its easy to get feelings hurt, but we are supposed to be grown ups, nobody is perfect, everything can be made better, and if iI don't make a critical comment, some else or your competitor will, and good engineering design is not arm chair engineering, and most manufacturers leave because they find it easier to close their ears then open their eyes. Yes, this is a tough crowd, and running off any manufacturer helps no one, and is never mine nor I suspect anyone else'e intent. Making a better product is. In my case my suggestions require very little effort to implement other then maybe eating at the absolute worst case a little crow and agreeing a slight change makes for an improvement. I don't see the problem. Wanting all glory and no heat for a product is not realistic. We want you to succeed, if you are listening.

Yes, but some don't act like grown up. And just want to rudely impolitely nit pick and over scrutinize any ideas that are not their own.

And refuse to believe there are possibly two ways to get to the same place (maybe even three?).

Posted By: Trojmn

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 06:58 AM

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The video states 9800 is that of the unstiffened chassis, equal to a modern day sedan. The stated goal was 15000, equal to a modern day sports car.

Video 3, 1:20-1:45

That sounds about right, it's a ton of raw data, and I'm not sure if the actual numbers were ever published...

Thanks for finding that....

CR

are we talking torsional or beaming stiffness?

that piqued my interest so i asked the googles for a list for chassis stifness and found this one for torsional. Its in newton meters 9800ft/lbs*1.3558=13,286NM

http://www.germancarforum.com/threads/the-list-torsional-rigidity.12334/

if thats accurate, im somewhere between impressed and shocked with the E-body chassis

"so says the interwebs", it may be completely made up. IDK

Posted By: 73MagDuster

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 08:19 PM

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Is there any good before and after tests on these aftermarket suspensions?

By good I mean a couple of things. Third party, same rims and tires and if possible same brakes?

I have axcess to CarSim at work. If I could get enough information on the stock, XV, and Hotchkiss systems I could build a generic E body and simulate skidpad, slalom, general ride, braking, and some more free form dynamics. Body and tires would be constant. To be very precise it needs K and C data to account for bushing movement but for what we are doing here that shouldn't have an affect.

I need spring or wheel rates, sta bar rates, pickup points, etc. I have no way of getting that info other than a stock E body I have access too.

If Dan and Chris are interested PM me. More than agreeable to signing an NDA for the specs. I have no dog in this fight other than answering questions.

It would not happen over night, it takes a bit to build the model, paying work to do, yadda yadda.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 09:16 PM

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And folks, this is how every one of these ends... People wonder why manufacturer's aren't more active in these forums...

If anybody wants any information or details, please PM, email, or call me at the shop...

CR

Thanks for keeping XV alive, Chris. I watched all the video's the other day and I am very appreciative of the research and work done by XV.

Posted By: Trojmn

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 10:45 PM

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I would 'like' to be able to get 8+* caster with -1.5 or less camber for street. Not possible. Aftermarket arms would be useful for this.

1/8" spacer between the balljoint/knuckle should help quite a bit. I use bronze bushings from the hardware store. They also sell 1/16" I didn't have any binding in the BJ. and still full thread engagement on the bolts.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 11:43 PM

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I would 'like' to be able to get 8+* caster with -1.5 or less camber for street. Not possible. Aftermarket arms would be useful for this.

1/8" spacer between the balljoint/knuckle should help quite a bit. I use bronze bushings from the hardware store. They also sell 1/16" I didn't have any binding in the BJ. and still full thread engagement on the bolts.

Between the lower ball joint and spindle? Those increase the camber, but don't do much, if anything, for caster. I have a set from Andy, and will be buying some thinner washers for potential track adjustments this weekend.

Posted By: TC@HP2

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/23/15 11:52 PM

He is saying that if you can get your camber using spacers on the lower bolts, then you can use the upper arm eccentrics to max out caster instead of reducing the difference to gain camber.

Posted By: Uhcoog1

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/24/15 12:19 AM

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He is saying that if you can get your camber using spacers on the lower bolts, then you can use the upper arm eccentrics to max out caster instead of reducing the difference to gain camber.

Ah. Unfortunately it doesn't work that way for me. I can't go higher than about 7.0* caster without taking the camber above 1.5*. We've tried to no avail.

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/25/15 09:22 PM

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I thought XV was out of business.

Oh Man, Don't scare me like that!
They make some great stuff. I love the power window kit.

Tav

Posted By: cataclysm80

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/25/15 09:39 PM

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The problem with the pictured solution is for one, where the brace connects to the firewall, I bet one can almost by hand bend the sheet metal, but it the brace was moved up only say 4"?, it would near a 90 degree bend and be magnitudes stiffer. Nobody sees this?

You might want to take a closer look at E body sheet metal.
Where that brace meets the firewall is very near to the 90 degree bend for the horizontal part of the firewall sometimes known as the rain pan. Not only is there a 90 degree bend located there, but it is also reinforced by a second piece of sheet metal called the cowl which is welded onto the firewall. The mounting plate for the brace overlaps this weld near the 90 degree bend.

Tav

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/26/15 02:30 AM

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I would 'like' to be able to get 8+* caster with -1.5 or less camber for street. Not possible. Aftermarket arms would be useful for this.

1/8" spacer between the balljoint/knuckle should help quite a bit. I use bronze bushings from the hardware store. They also sell 1/16" I didn't have any binding in the BJ. and still full thread engagement on the bolts.

Why not use the SPC arms I sell? They can use the eccentrics AND the adjustable legs of the arm. I am going to try this and by the looks of it, I should be able to achieve 8.5 easily. Mine are at 4 now and the arms are not extended at all to do so.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/26/15 02:49 AM

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Why not use the SPC arms I sell? They can use the eccentrics AND the adjustable legs of the arm. I am going to try this and by the looks of it, I should be able to achieve 8.5 easily. Mine are at 4 now and the arms are not extended at all to do so.

Keep me posted as to how THAT works! I bought the SPC arms for a Charger and was wondering if it was necessary to use the eccentric bolts or if I could get it spec'd where I want it without them...

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/26/15 11:19 AM

I will. The ones I sell use a Delrin bushing and my own sleeves to mount properly. Their rubber bushings fail on the track.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/27/15 09:40 PM

Are the bushings they supply acceptable for daily driver street use? What kind of money to replace with the Delrin bushings and your sleeves at some point?

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/28/15 03:37 PM

I don't bother selling with the rubber bushings. The delrins are precise and silent. I sell the arms for 395/pr.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/28/15 04:28 PM

I understand that, Peter, but if you look a couple posts back, you'll see that I already have a set of SPC arms here. Therefore, I would like to know how much to make this upgrade...

Posted By: Supercuda

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/28/15 09:35 PM

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I understand that, Peter, but if you look a couple posts back, you'll see that I already have a set of SPC arms here. Therefore, I would like to know how much to make this upgrade...

$395/pr

Posted By: 67autocross

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/29/15 12:00 AM

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I understand that, Peter, but if you look a couple posts back, you'll see that I already have a set of SPC arms here. Therefore, I would like to know how much to make this upgrade...

$85

http://bergman-auto-craft.myshopify.com/collections/all

Posted By: feets

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/29/15 12:01 AM

Delrin bushings are some of the easiest things to machine. That stuff turns like a lathe operator's dream. If he can't supply then, I can probably remove the sleeves from yours and pop delrin bushings in without too much fuss.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/29/15 07:23 AM

Thanks for trying, guys.

Supercuda- I already own SPC arms. Not paying $395USD for another set to replace the brand new ones I have here just to have different bushings.

67autocross- Unless I missed it, the only Delrin bushings I saw listed were for the LCAs, not UCAs.

feets- At the rate things are going getting an answer, that might be my only option!

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/29/15 12:26 PM

It would have been easier to just call or email me directly. Yes, I can sell you just the Delrin ends for your arms. I assume you haven't put yours in yet?

Posted By: feets

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/30/15 08:21 PM

I made replacement LCA bushings and sleeves to fit larger bolts in my bro-in-law's RZR.

They've held up to a couple years for racing.

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/31/15 07:54 AM

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It would have been easier to just call or email me directly. Yes, I can sell you just the Delrin ends for your arms. I assume you haven't put yours in yet?

Never thought of calling/e-mailing. Duh!

No. I am in the "amassing parts as finances allow" stage of the build...

Posted By: BergmanAutoCraft

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 03/31/15 04:06 PM

That's would I thought. The parts they supply don't fit....

Posted By: 4speeds4me

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 04/01/15 02:17 AM

Can you be more specific?

Posted By: jcc

Re: XV level II front suspension. Who is using it? - 04/05/15 04:21 PM

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I understand that its easy to get feelings hurt, but we are supposed to be grown ups, nobody is perfect, everything can be made better, and if iI don't make a critical comment, some else or your competitor will, and good engineering design is not arm chair engineering, and most manufacturers leave because they find it easier to close their ears then open their eyes. Yes, this is a tough crowd, and running off any manufacturer helps no one, and is never mine nor I suspect anyone else'e intent. Making a better product is. In my case my suggestions require very little effort to implement other then maybe eating at the absolute worst case a little crow and agreeing a slight change makes for an improvement. I don't see the problem. Wanting all glory and no heat for a product is not realistic. We want you to succeed, if you are listening.

Yes, but some don't act like grown up. And just want to rudely impolitely nit pick and over scrutinize any ideas that are not their own.

And refuse to believe there are possibly two ways to get to the same place (maybe even three?).

With such a blistering indictment, and not even few examples in this thread to support the above claim, its hard to assume it has merit.

XV level II front suspension. Who is using it?