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Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: MATCH BASH 65] #1739408
02/25/15 03:25 PM
02/25/15 03:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
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Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Wichita
Welcome to Moparts, Jim.

Do you have any events scheduled for the car yet?

Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: GY3] #1739409
02/25/15 05:44 PM
02/25/15 05:44 PM
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dogdays Offline
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Why oh why would one sell the parts that make a certain car special?

Money gained now will not equal money lost later.

R.

Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: MATCH BASH 65] #1739410
02/26/15 03:01 AM
02/26/15 03:01 AM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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Jim.
Are those fenders showing signs of dipping?

This is what may be at hand with these strange artifacts.
I presume that an early run of the fenders, doors, hoods and scoops etc, both Dodge and or Plymouth were indeed .018 or so. They probably proved to be problematic at speed and were then adjusted later in the run to be stamped out of .024 or so.
I say this because a reliable source with three NOS A-990 fenders in his possession from both Plymouth and Dodge came up with a mic'ed .023-025 reading and he said that they showed signs of dipping. (a sandy dark finish)
Mine in contrast are super smooth clean metal with no signs of dipping and are reading .024-26 or so where the mic can reach.
This is indeed a mystery and probably another case of the old Chrysler Corporation not keeping good reliable documentation of their updated and or changed memos.

Maybe so, and I stress this as a possibility that maybe Chrysler stamped all the fenders out of .024-26 thickness and then decided to either dip them further for removal of steel or suggested to their racers to do so. Remember, that even though most 65' Altered wheel base AFX 10/15 percent cars main bodies were wholeheartedly dipped in California, supposedly, Dick Landy decided against the practice and his car survived better than most as a non dipped main body car.

I just wonder it strange if fenders that show signs of dipping could be reading in the same ball park thickness as mine in virgin metal.

Do you have the doors and hood?

Last edited by fullmetaljacket; 02/26/15 03:08 AM.
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739411
03/06/15 08:32 PM
03/06/15 08:32 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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Just the facts about unconfirmed facts. Here's 5-6 samples.

8451598-IMG_3350.JPG (222 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739412
03/06/15 08:34 PM
03/06/15 08:34 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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Text.

8451606-IMG_3351.JPG (188 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739413
03/06/15 08:37 PM
03/06/15 08:37 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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another.

8451616-IMG_3353.JPG (183 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739414
03/06/15 08:48 PM
03/06/15 08:48 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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another view.

8451641-IMG_3354.jpg (141 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739415
03/07/15 01:48 AM
03/07/15 01:48 AM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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some other writings.

8452069-IMG_3359.JPG (182 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739416
03/07/15 01:49 AM
03/07/15 01:49 AM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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and yet another writing.

8452070-IMG_3361.JPG (147 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739417
03/07/15 03:30 PM
03/07/15 03:30 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 88
Arizona
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410mopar Offline
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Arizona

This is the page from 4208.8 Pretty neat way of stamping thin parts. They put two thin sheets in the press instead of one thick sheet.

8452505-4208.8.pdf (520 downloads)
Re: 411 on A990 thickness of skins [Re: 410mopar] #1739418
03/07/15 11:43 PM
03/07/15 11:43 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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What memo or brochure is that?

Re: 411 on A990 lightweight fender skin thickness. [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739419
03/08/15 03:41 PM
03/08/15 03:41 PM
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Abilene, Texas
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fastmark Offline
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Abilene, Texas
Interesting thread and I can give some input from an original Dodge lightweight I had several years ago. Unknown to me at the time it was once owned by a famous racer from CA. and was supposedly a national record holder at one time. It came to Texas in 66 and is still here as far as I know. My car was built on 4/05/65 and was built in one of the last bunches of cars. It had all the original lightweight sheet metal expect the hood, which had blown off during a race. I still had the scoop. My doors had all the inner structure under the door panel cut out so I investigated how to fix it. Now, my core support area was pretty badly bent from stress. I measured all of that area with a mic and it measured .018 in all places I could reach. It was very flimsy and noticeably thinner than my doors, scoop, and fenders. My fenders measured .026, as well as my inner door structure. I am convinced that my doors were original. The brace at the front of the door where the hinges bolted to, measured .036. I measured an OEM standard door and it measured .036 on the skin and .045 on the braces. I never removed my fenders to measure the structure or mounting places where it bolted to the inner fender. I never stripped my doors of paint but I could clearly see signs of acid and corrosion. The door frames that held the glass in were rusting from the inside out. It is dry here in Texas where this car has been all but one year of it's life and it was a 100% rust free car otherwise. You could also see one of two spots where it appeared that the acid and had eaten through a thin spot created by the stamping process and had been carefully brazed over with brass. I sold the car unrestored and it was " restored " by a guy in his backyard. He told me some of the things he had done in the "restoration" of the car and it made me shutter. So the history is all but lost on this one.

Re: 411 on A990 lightweight fender skin thickness. [Re: fastmark] #1739420
03/08/15 05:08 PM
03/08/15 05:08 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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Thank you for the post Fastmark. This has been quite a feat to find missing links, smoking guns and the light of Sun on these rare items.

My fenders were cracking in some small corner stress points and one slit of day light could be seen where the 90% bend was on the top portion of the fender skirt. I have since welded it shut via an ace welder on Long Island who at first was reluctant to weld them shut, but succeeded with his expertise of using steel weld rod and no Brass.

Re: 411 on A990 lightweight fender skin thickness. [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739421
03/09/15 08:24 PM
03/09/15 08:24 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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So I have concluded so far, and I can't stress this enough, That Chrysler, was in a bind during or before the tail end of 64' to make up for the band on the aluminum panels by NHRA.
That Chrysler, in its haste to get the new 65'cars approved, tested and within racing weight for NHRA's nod "COULD" have made any number of experiments, revisits and total changes despite what these memos read as law of the day back in the day.

Not to try and validate what I have, but I think many experts and novices alike have created or overheard an old Wives tale over the years and discounted the fact that Chrysler or any other manufacturer could have differed from what their original intro memos read. You have to remember the intensity of the moment back then, where everyone was trying to upstage each other to get that checkered feather in their respective hats.

This is my theory until I find a smoking gun. COULD IT BE, that since in order to make up for the weight regained on the cars with mandated Steel (even thin gauge steel) panels, that the factory decided to change a number of things on the engines themselves. Check it: Aluminum panels of all kinds in 64' with an iron headed and aluminum manifold Hemi up front.
In 65' A thin gauge steel panel car (not much weight saved compared to aluminum panels) and the engine received aluminum heads, pump housing, pump, water neck, alternator brackets, Magnesium intake manifold and the ever so elusive Aluminum door hinges. That in itself brings some questions up. Why aluminum door hinges on a steel panel car? Wasn't aluminum the culprit alloy?
I also think that this new practice came within reach of their goals and enabled them to keep the kill switch on towards the competition. No wonder Ford went to smaller Mustangs to get some kind of foothold.

Re: 411 on A990 lightweight fender skin thickness. [Re: fullmetaljacket] #1739422
03/09/15 11:32 PM
03/09/15 11:32 PM
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South Bend
John Brown Offline
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South Bend
As for aluminum door hinges, Chevrolet was using aluminum door hinges on garden variety Chevelle and Chevy II (Nova) passenger cars of the same vintage, so they would have had to make many of those cars illegal if they pitched a b*tch with the Mopar aluminum hinges.


July 19th should be "Drive Like Rockford Day". R.I.P. Jimmie.
Re: 411 on A990 lightweight fender skin thickness. [Re: John Brown] #1739423
03/11/15 03:22 PM
03/11/15 03:22 PM
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fullmetaljacket Offline OP
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Good argument. Never knew about the Bowtie aluminum hinges. Though they started with the aluminum panels way earlier than anyone else.

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