|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1736113
01/22/15 03:17 AM
01/22/15 03:17 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
Quote:
What is it you are trying to achieve. Do you "need" lash caps for rocker geometry............because just using a retainer and lock to increase installed height, doesn't mean you must use lash caps. I am sure you are also aware, that if you DO use a longer valve, it will alter rocker geometry and you might have to raise shafts and get a longer pushrod to correct it. If you have proper geometry now and pushrods, the obvious choice is +.050 locks and +.050 retainers.
Monte
What Monte said about the locks and retainers...
if your trying to just increase the install height..
of course if the geometry is fine now with the valve
length you have
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1736115
01/22/15 03:59 AM
01/22/15 03:59 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
What is it you are trying to achieve. Do you "need" lash caps for rocker geometry............because just using a retainer and lock to increase installed height, doesn't mean you must use lash caps. I am sure you are also aware, that if you DO use a longer valve, it will alter rocker geometry and you might have to raise shafts and get a longer pushrod to correct it. If you have proper geometry now and pushrods, the obvious choice is +.050 locks and +.050 retainers.
Monte
Geometry-wise I am pretty happy with what I have but could add another .030 of shims if I went longer. I am already using a +.050 lock. If I could find a +.050 retainer in Super 7 that would be cool but so far no dice. I think it would have to be tool steel to not cause clearance issues with the rocker arm. I built a "test" cap to add .110 to the valve tip and added .030 to the .060 worth of shims I already had and the pattern was more than acceptable. I have been reading every catalog from Ferrea to Del West and my eyes are starting to cross. It gives you a new respect for guys that are making this stuff work with large-ish lift cams. I think the designer at Edelbrock forgot to account for the thickness of the spring seat/locator/cup and now it's haunting me. I wish I would have bought some -1's or MW EZ's at this point. Who designs a head with big flow potential and does not plan a 2" installed height for it? 
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: boatracer572]
#1736116
01/22/15 04:04 AM
01/22/15 04:04 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
Manley offers +.100" retainers and a +.050" keeper , for a total of .150" more installed height if you need that much.....
And I do need that much. With a .045 spring seat I am only seeing 1.920-30. Gaining .100 would be a blessing. From my measurements I would be lucky to get away with a +.050 retainer let alone a +.100. Thanks for the insight I might order some up anyway and have a look.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: rickseeman]
#1736118
01/22/15 01:00 PM
01/22/15 01:00 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,868
Ontario, Canada
Stanton
Don't question me!
|
Don't question me!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 8,868
Ontario, Canada
|
Quote:
I think the designer at Edelbrock forgot to account for the thickness of the spring seat/locator/cup and now it's haunting me.
What about cutting the seat ??
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: rickseeman]
#1736119
01/22/15 01:24 PM
01/22/15 01:24 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
Be advised that Manley +.100" retainers may not give you .100" more installed height.
Good to know. I have a couple hundred dollars of retainers and locks to throw at this to figure it out. I'll make sure to report back with how it all measures up.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Stanton]
#1736120
01/22/15 01:24 PM
01/22/15 01:24 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
Quote:
I think the designer at Edelbrock forgot to account for the thickness of the spring seat/locator/cup and now it's haunting me.
What about cutting the seat ??
Unfortunately there isn't enough meat due to the CNC porting done on the head.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1736123
01/24/15 03:03 AM
01/24/15 03:03 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
I'm not a fan of lash caps on a engine.. I tend to run high revs and never found it to be any help UNLESS I was trying to correct a geometry issue of short valves.. yes the caps can help with a mushrooming issue... but I have never had that.. thats with roller rockers on a solid roller cam
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1736124
01/24/15 07:36 AM
01/24/15 07:36 AM
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
|
master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
|
I hear you. Nice ports and can't fit a decent valve spring  My old heads, I cut the seat pockets, but they were stock ports. The CNC ported heads are ported about as tall as you can go before breaking into the valve spring seats. Anyone using a shim and no spring seat cup/locator? My old B-1 B/S heads were setup with just a shim between the spring and head so I'm not sure how important the spring cup/locator is?
Last edited by 451Mopar; 01/24/15 07:37 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: B3RE]
#1736127
01/24/15 05:06 PM
01/24/15 05:06 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What is it you are trying to achieve. Do you "need" lash caps for rocker geometry............because just using a retainer and lock to increase installed height, doesn't mean you must use lash caps. I am sure you are also aware, that if you DO use a longer valve, it will alter rocker geometry and you might have to raise shafts and get a longer pushrod to correct it. If you have proper geometry now and pushrods, the obvious choice is +.050 locks and +.050 retainers.
Monte
Geometry-wise I am pretty happy with what I have but could add another .030 of shims if I went longer. I am already using a +.050 lock. If I could find a +.050 retainer in Super 7 that would be cool but so far no dice. I think it would have to be tool steel to not cause clearance issues with the rocker arm. I built a "test" cap to add .110 to the valve tip and added .030 to the .060 worth of shims I already had and the pattern was more than acceptable. I have been reading every catalog from Ferrea to Del West and my eyes are starting to cross. It gives you a new respect for guys that are making this stuff work with large-ish lift cams. I think the designer at Edelbrock forgot to account for the thickness of the spring seat/locator/cup and now it's haunting me. I wish I would have bought some -1's or MW EZ's at this point. Who designs a head with big flow potential and does not plan a 2" installed height for it?
I'll give you 500 bucks for them and you can apply that to a set of -1s. You'll have the heads you want, and I'll set up the Victors for a 540 I have with a .800" lift solid roller.  Hey, I'm just trying to help you out. 
Not just yet...I'm thinking some .060 and .090 rocker shaft spacers are going to be in order.
That said I'm going to do up a set of -1's with a paired rocker setup for my "good" motor.
Do you happen to be a Manley dealer? I'm going to start a database for installed height measurements of retainers and locks to get this stuff on paper for future builds. Apparently 451 and myself are the first guys around to try and use these heads to their potential.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Thumperdart]
#1736128
01/24/15 05:10 PM
01/24/15 05:10 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
|
OP
master
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
|
Quote:
After reading all of these hastles on these heads, I`ll probably go Indy through someone on here UNLESS those suck too then I`ll just stick w/my RPM`s and still have a solid 9-second car w/zero hastles and crazy cost. 
MW EZ's all the way. Between the center rocker stand issue, installed height SNAFU, rocker to valve cover issues, headers hitting the valve cover, etc. it's not really worth the headache. Although some of those can be avoided by the user these problems should have been solved by an engineer.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1736130
01/24/15 07:26 PM
01/24/15 07:26 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
|
No, I'm not a Manley dealer. I can get their whole line through one of my wholesale suppliers though.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
|
|
|
Re: Lash Caps or Longer Valves?
[Re: B3RE]
#1736134
01/25/15 04:34 AM
01/25/15 04:34 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
Porter67
master
|
master
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 5,183
|
I couldnt agree more, and I responded to fix the problem and did. I stray from buying used al heads for many reasons, but one of the things I look for is signs of the shaft moving.
Seeing the issue is why I took measures to deal with mine and pinned the shafts as well as use billet blocks as well.
Lash caps give me what I feel better with, a larger contact area and a better scrub pattern. And im not replacing valves or guides often.
I have read alot of your posting and have mixed thoughts, with that said ive never had a rocker arm related failure, SM composite lifters, Smith Brothers pushrods and comp pro mag rockers, comp tit. retainers, high spring rate springs and so forth. As well as I have my solid cams round on a roller core.
Part of the reason I stay with this setup on several builds is because of how well it works and dont wear parts out other then expected wear.
And im hard on parts, I have a good stretch where I run over 7200 for almost 30 seconds, start with a rolling burnout.
But I will say this, there are many who have the shafts walk and not seem to care, they break rockers, bend pushrods and are clueless.
I dont break valve train parts so I stick with what I know and use good well matched parts.
This pic is of some older comp pro mags I use and I was test fitting a .660 which put me a bit too close to coil bind so I went with the .640 lift as really my heads wont miss the .020 difference.
The kicker here is I run a slightly modified oiling system and my comps are not even bushed and im waiting for them to wear so I can get them bushed, but they dont wear.
|
|
|
|
|
