From first hand experience, what is the best way to prevent new oil pan gaskets on a 440 engine from leaking? My 440 is now a 505 ci stroker, using a Chenoweth main girdle, windage tray, and Milodon oil pan. It runs great, but the oil pan is leaking bad at the rear. The rear main seal is dry. I want to fix the oil pan leak right and be done with it.

I am considering using the Fel-Pro 1834 oil pan gaskets, or the Superperformance #2585 oil pan gaskets. Is one better than the other?

When using a two Fel-Pro 1834 oil pan gaskets with a windage tray, would it be most likely leak free using Permatex� Ultra Rubber Gasket Sealant & Dressing Part Number 85409, or���.by using Permatex� Ultra Grey Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker ? OR....don't use any sealant or silicone? Would this be the same for Superformance oil pan gasket #2585 ?


Fel-Pro 1834 oil pan gasket, 2 piece steel and rubber:

http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-det...&brandId=FL

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1834


Superformance oil pan gasket #2585

http://www.manciniracing.com/suoilpangase1.html

I have always used the Fel-Pro 1834 but I believe the guy that makes Superformance gaskets is a member here on Moparts. The Superformance gasket material is awesome.

que the GM clownt with his rant on different length oil pan bolts ... even though you have a girdle and his rant does not even have any thing to do with this ... in 3 , 2 , 1 ...

Use the superformance gasket and make sure you pan rails are nice and flat ...

Superformance, if you are going to buy one gasket from them make it the oil pan gasket. Cork oil pan gaskets want to compress to easily and bulge out, paper rips. Superformance stays nice and doesn't compress out of the side of the pan with 15 inch pounds of torque on each bolt. Hands down best gaskets I've seen, wish I had bought a whole kit from him before I got my engine half together.

No RTV. Let the gasket do the work, even with the cork fel pro junk. I smear a little where the timing cover meets the block though. Don't go crazy.

Use Perma-Tex Aviation Gasket Maker, let it set up, and DONT overtighten the bolts.

10 years with a 383, a 451, and two different pans... I've never had a pan gasket leak.

Having a good oil pan with a 1/2 pan rail helps , I put a small amount of silicone in the rear main center bolt holes and a dab at the timing chain seam . (1834 gasket with the steel core ) pan comes off 10 or more times a year same gasket .

The Superformance gaskets work well. I also add a little RTV at the rear cap area/timing chain cover. If the pan itself is suspect of not being completely flat a 1/8" bead of RTV between the pan and gasket will cure it. Mine don't leak a drop.
Doug

I agree that the Superperformance gasket works very well on a stamped steel pan or a fabricated pan with a solid rail. Another option for the fabricated pan is the windage tray from Jegs with the built in gasket. It is very similar to the reusable transmission pan gasket that Mopar sells.
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/502001/10002/-1

Another SuperPerformance vote. Put it on dry with maybe some gasket sinche just to hold it in place on one side when assemled. No leaks whatsoever.


Best there is


Russ

After leaks with the Jegs composite windage tray/gasket, I returned it for a refund.
I now see they recommend using it with cast pans with solid gasket
surfaces, unlike the stamped pans.

Joe

Once you use the Superformance gaskets you'll wonder why you ever settled for the other gaskets out there.
I love leak free engines!
Keith

I can assure you will not find a better "Quality" oil pan gasket than what we offer here at Superformance Products.

If you choose to support us here are some installation tips for your application.

1) As we all should know, clean, flat surfaces are a must with any gasket install. Pay particular attention to the gasket rail on your stamped steel pan and correct where needed.

2) When you are ready to install apply a 1/8" "BEAD" of Permatex Ultra Black directly to the oil pan rail perimeter. Also apply at the timing chain cover to block joint and the rear main seal retainer. You should need nothing on the block surface or the windage tray, given it's not bent out of shape.

3) If you wish to retain the gasket to the oil pan rail of the block for ease of installation while on your back under the car with oil dripping on your forehead
Apply a small amount of Contact Adhesive between bolt holes on the block and gasket and allow to tack up before attempting installation.

4) Once everything is in place with a couple bolts started. Install remaining bolts and tighten "just snug" to disperse the Permatex Ultra Black,

5) Wait 24 hours for sealer to cure then tighten all bolts to desired torque.

Here's the issues with using the "others"

F-P 1834, has a steel core and is pretty thick to use doubled up with a windage tray.

F-P 1808, good luck trying to get it flat on the front and back ends after it's been folded in 1/2 and rubber banded to cardboard tubes for who knows how long.

Milodon "Crush Proof", it's anything but and is one of the most economical materials on the market.

Jegs Polymer windage tray with molded in sealing beads has very little sealing contact area, less than any composition gasket.

Thanks for all the positive responses
Where else can you get direct feedback like this

I pretty much the same set up as the op, I had a rear oil leak and thought at first it was the rear seal, it was dry also, so I looked at the gasket and pan rail, both were good, then I noticed 2 marks on the inside of the pan where the rear main bearing girdle retaining studs were hitting the pan. Smacked the two marks with a ball peen hammer a few times and replaced the pan using the same gasket [ blue Moroso from AutoZone ] No leaks. Just my experience. you might want to look at your pan inside.

So will anyone be selling Superformance gaskets at the Detroit swap meet next Sunday ??

As many have already said..use the Superformance gaskets.My 440 is as dry as a bone.

When ordering #2585 is that for a pair or one gasket ?

Also do they sell a rear main seal ?

And some say to put #2585 on dry , while road hazard says put a bead of silicone on the oil pan rail ?


Bought a new reproduction stamped 402 oil pan and windage tray , want to do it right while motor sits in car

Thanx Scott

Listen to Road hazmat!!

Last one I did was with a pair of Felpro cork gaskets with spray adhesive on one side and dry on the other + a small amount of silicone on the rear seal and timing cover areas per directions. No leaks. It does require a flat pan.

If you are worried about flatness and do use silicone, it is important to install and tighten finger tight only, let it set up for several hours then tighten gently. Wet silicone can soften the gasket and acts as a lube making it split and squeeze out.

I notice that after a couple of heat cycles on a new engeine, the pan bolts tend to loosen and need to be retorqued.

I use regular old Felpro gaskets but applied black silicone to the pan rail of the block and then put my gasket on. Despite all the bolts being loose, I didn't have a single leak. I retorqued for good measure. The valve covers and transmission pan are the same way.

I do make sure all the surfaces are cleaned with brake parts cleaner first. I took great pains with the rear main seal cap and even ran a bead of black silicone on the inside of both edges where it meets the block.

My 505 is the first engine I've built that doesn't leak a drop!

Summit now has a silicone covered steel gasket like the 727 pan gaskets. It is 0.200 thick so that might cause problems or help with clearance depending on the situation.

I've tried all of the gaskets over the years and I think the best gasket depends on the pan. If you have a good solid pan rail then the Superformance gasket is a good bet.

I do have oil pan reinforcement rails available now as a product. I'll post a picture of them shortly.

That is the result of a soft gasket used to compensate for very irregular surfaces and is generally inexpensive. It will not retain bolt torque. Also tends to "wick" oil through the gasket causing external dampness that dust and dirt likes to cling to.

Put the #2585 pan gasket on my Charger Mule about 5 years ago. Bolts are still tight and no weeping through the gasket.

Thanx Greg

All Questions Answered

Peace

Everything is apart , cleaned up and ready to install

Bought the billet rear main seal retainer kit from Mancini racing

Should I use the supplied rear main seal from Mancini racing or I also bought the Superformance rear main seal when I purchased there oil pan gaskets , thinking of using there rear main seal with the Mancini billet retainer

Then obviously using the double side black rubber o rings supplied with Mancini kit

Anyways , any other tricks used installing this Mancini racing billet retainer before I button everything up today

Superformance rear main seal work with the Mancini racing billet retainer ?

Use the superperformance rear main seal, offset about 1/8" from the parting line.

I use the ultra gray between the block and girdle.

Sounds like the superperormance pan gaskets are the way to go.
I used the Fel-pros with steel core, but not really impressed with them.
I have the Jegs windage tray/gasket on a different engine and it sealed up great.

I think the girdle kit uses studs and has the bolts with serrated surface to hold the pan on? My girdle kit was the older one from BCR.

Anyhow, a bit of blue loc-tite will help the oil pan bolts / nuts from loosening.

ZERO leaks with this windage tray / gasket.....

Thanx

Many have reported that the Jegs wind age tray rubber o ring oil pan gasket will not work with the factory 402 oil pan , or any factory oil pan for that matter because the mating surface on the factory pans is not completely smooth flat , factory pans have those recessed areas

I'm running a stamped hemi pan with the plastic steel O ringed windage tray/ gasket with no leaks at all... Make sure the oil pan rail is flat and bolt It down ......... Easy

One picture says a thousand words,,,,,,,,

The Jegs windage tray/gasket works with the reproduction Hemi 6-quart oil pan.

Actually Jegs gets them from Magnum Automotive Group. Former Fel Pro guys that started there own gasket business

Rear main seal leaks 100 times worse now then the one it replaced

New 402 oil pan and superformance gaskets are awesome

Mancini racing billet retainer

Put black rtv on the ends where it contacts the block , side o rings go into holes in the retainer on the ends then swing around the sides

Used the superformance rear main seal ,seal lip on both halves facing inward towards the crank

Only thing I didn't do was silicone the sides of billet retainer because I thought that was the purpose of the double o rings , you know to keep oil from leaking by the o rings

But after some more research ???

Anyways I am beyond pissed

Any better o ring material for those side seals that I can pick up locally ??? They fit in the tiny holes on the end of retainer nicely to hold in place , but coming down the sides you have to keep them in place in the grooves while sliding down the retainer inward on the block , wish the rubber was a little wider

Black rtv or Copper on the sides of retainer , yes or no ???

Should I offset the rear seal more then a 1/8" so it's not flush with the parting line of block

Also the superformance rear main seal versus the Mancini rear seal supplied with kit , any differences ???

Sorry guys for all the questions , not a happy camper right now , missing out on a car show today

This is how I do it, no leaks always dry. In the car you will need a helper for the first test. Push the retainer up against the crank with the seal in the retainer, don't off set the seal. Measure the sides of the retainer to the block. Most likely the right and left sides will be different. Now install the bolts and remeasure. Did it change? If so open the bolt holes as they are off and pulling the seal off center. With this repaired (and it may take a different retainer). Personally I've found the stock retainer to work with no issues. Then follow this procedure. RTV along the the sides only. A small bead of anaerobic sealer between the cap and block. Fill the 45 channel at the back of the cap with RTV using a putty knife. This will be easier if the cut out in the crank flange is rotated to the side you're working on. Very important when using RTV on any surface to make sure it sticks. If you apply a thin film to both side with your finger it should stick to the surface. If it doesn't, just rolls off the surface is not clean enough. If you're careful and use a putty knife you may be able to remove the Super-Formance gasket with out ripping it. I service my race car motor by checking bearings every 100 passes and remove the pan and intake for inspection. As it uses a vacuum pump it needs to be sealed with absolutely no leaks. Hope this helps.
Doug

I started making oil pan rail reinforcements just because I saw a lot of guys having problems with stacked gaskets and the new rubber type gaskets. The steel pan will bend between the bolts and open up leaks. So now we're starting to put the rails on a lot of steel pan motors.

Thanx guys

Took it apart early this morning

Looked like oil getting past side retainer o rings , and I didn't clock the two piece seal like I thought . It was seated flush or parrellell with block lines

Not happy with my factory retainer ,, looks pretty beat up

Does Mopar or someone reproduce factory retainers ??? Hopefully i don't need to head in that direction

So found some other threads , research

I made sure this time I clocked the rear main seal itself , then did a dry fit with the billet retainer using the alignment rods

Did this dry fit a few times

However upon suggestion , I used black rtv on the sides of the billet retainer , and a little on the bottom ends

The superformance gaskets , I was able to use a putty knife on the four small spots of rtv to separate the gasket from the block . Sweet , came apart perfect , very very nice

Will fire it up tomorrow or in a few days

If this doesn't work

There will Bee a 71 Bee at the local dump

Sounds like your on top of it

T

T

Fwiw, I smear permatex ultra black between all four surfaces....... Block, both sides of the tray, pan.

If what you have now is a fairly small leak, you might be able to cure it by really cleaning off the area around the leak, and smear some black "right stuff" all over the top of where it's leaking, and let it cure overnight.

No gaskets, just sealant?

Sorry, no.......gaskets with ultra black on both sides...... A thin smear.

That combination gasket/windage tray has been on my last 2 builds. It is the way to go. Just for a little extra insurance, I spread Hylomar on it. No leaks AND it will come apart and go back together with no issues. That is with the repop Hemi/Six Pack pan. I have had them apart several times and they seal as good as new.

Besides, they are much easier to get into place than 2 gaskets, a tray, and a pan being twisted around the pick-up.

T

Actually, in this tread there are 3 responses that were positive for the composite tray with gasket and 2 that were negative.

And I use the Superformance gaskets everywhere on my engines, except the pan, head, and on Hemi valve covers.

T

That's a good idea; an oil pan gasket shoot-out.

I use Hylomar on nearly everything. Almost no gasket goes on my motors unless it gets Hylomar. I don't know if the pan gasket even benefits from it, but it can't hurt anything and doesn't impact pulling it apart.

My preference for the combo tray/gasket actually has more to do with convenience rather than sealing. The pan gasket is one area that I have not had any sealing issues with any of the better gaskets. It is just easier to get the tray/gasket combo in place when under the car and hasn't given me any leakage or seepage issues, so I use it.

All of the composite, cork, rubber, stacked gaskets and wiz bang double secret gaskets that exist on the planet are a coin toss as far as the ability to hold oil. Every builder has a trick to prevent leaks of some sort. It's one thing to build an engine in your garage using one of the gaskets listed above, it's a whole different story when you are mass producing cars and are recalling thousands of cars due to leakers.... The automotive industry was sick and tired of paying for oil leaks years ago and switched to ridged compositeO ringed rubber printed gaskets. These gaskets cannot be over torqued and NEVER leak. The shootout is over.

I use the cheapest cork gasket(s), with aviation cement. No leaks. Got to leave it set up over nite though, and do not over tighten..

What he said!!!!

T

T

This is great!!!!

Hylomar is awesome. It's about all I use anymore. Developed by Rolls Royce for the RAF in WWII it is non hardening and makes for easy disassembly.
Hylomar website

I can get it at Napa under the Permatex brand, but I see Amazon stocks a bigger lineup, including the anaerobic sealers
Hylomar Blue

ccdave, where did you get that windage tray with slots? thx

T

Where can you get some of these?

For me, Right Stuff from parmatex is all I use....can't go wrong

Dan

Mancini Racing has them. I cut in the extra slots. It comes with 3 drain slots.

I haven't tried the new Permatex version of Hylomar yet, but I actually liked the old Permatex version of Hylomar BETTER than the actual Hylomar. I have been meaning to try the new Permatex version, but a little goes a long way and it will be a while until I run out of what I already have.

As to "The Right Stuff", that just may be the best gasket maker I have ever used. It works. Maybe too good. So be careful where you use it. You need a stick of dynamite to blow the pieces back apart. It sticks that good. I have ruined parts before trying to get them apart. Because of that, about the only place I use it anymore is on the differential.

15 inch pounds?
Yeah, I bet it leaks like a sieve!
What did you have it torqued to previously and did it really "feel" like 15 inch pounds was enough to load the gasket/oil pan flange/fastener? That's hardly screw driver tight!

If in doubt, calling the Toll Free number on the package and instructions you could have received personal/professional assistance and saved the grief of having to R&R everything again. Why rely on suggestions from anyone other than who knows the product best?

Out of all the oil pan designs from all the manufacturers, nothing is more simple to seal than a B/RB Mopar oil pan.

It's a 5/16-18 fastener with a fairly dense gasket and stamped steel oil pan....... give it 100-125 inch pounds oiled. The gasket can stand quite a bit more than that but your oil pan can't.

Again, when installed "properly" you Will Not be disappointed!

T

Debated a long time about gaskets and sealers on my Hemi build. I used 4 dabs of RTV in the intake corners, and the rear main seal corners only. Everything else was installed bone dry. No leaks. Cometic head gaskets, 440 source rear main side seals, and a crappy Fel Pro gasket kit that needed gaskets trimmed everywhere.

With Fel Pro cork pan gaskets, I did NOT torque the bolts to factory spec. I tightened them evenly until they felt snug. Since the gasket was dry, it crushed evenly and didn't squeeze out or tear.

(P.S. If I had known about Superformance-Products gaskets beforehand, would have bought from them instead.)

Roadhazard, your PM box is full, wanted to ask if you recommend any kind of sealer on your Hemi intake gaskets. Jim

Ordered a set of SuPerformance oil pan & valve cover gaskets today from Hughes. I'll be trying them out for the first time when I put a modified Milodon Street Hemi replica pan (not a flat flange, unfortunately) with a modified Milodon-style full-length windage tray and a new I-J crank scraper. That's a lot of surfaces to seal: block-to-scraper; scraper-to-tray; tray-to-pan.

The last time I assembled this engine I used some Victor cork (cork & rubber?) oil pan gaskets that have a steel core. I used either Permatex High-Temp orange or copper sealant to "glue" both oil pan gaskets to the windage tray and let those dry overnight w/ small clamps holding the gaskets in position on the windage tray. Then I installed the windage tray dry, other than putting a dab of sealer at the joints where the timing cover and the rear main seal holder meet the block's oil pan gasket surface. I don't recall having any oil pan leakage issues, so that approach worked OK.

My plan at this time (and feel free to throw in your $.02) is to seal the scraper directly to the block w/ an RTV-type product and let it set up per the scraper's instructions. Then "glue" the SuPerformance gaskets to both sides of the windage tray like I did the last time, and install the pan & windage try dry... unless the general consensus is to put at least a thin layer of sealant on the scraper-to-tray and tray-to-pan surfaces to play it safe w/ all those layers.

I still have a set of those Victor gaskets, even though I'll be using the SuPerformance stuff this time. I had also picked up a set of the Milodon "crush proof" gaskets a couple of years ago, only to find out from Mr. SuPerformance on this thread that they're not what they're advertised to be. Well, better to find out here, instead of the hard way by using them and regretting that decision.

Oh, and my next build will have yet another layer to seal because it'll incorporate a main cap girdle in between the crank scraper and the windage tray: block > scraper > girdle > windage tray > pan. Ugh...

What I have done in the past Brad, to get all those individual layers to go into place together, is to strip out some individual strands of 14 or 16 gage wire and use them through a few bolt holes to hold everything together as they go into position. Since I started using that composite tray/gasket combo, I don't need the wires. But you have more layers going on, so it could be a viable alternative to gluing stuff together.

I used to pull them out after the assembly was up and in place, but started just leaving them in place permanently. They are small enough that they didn't affect the seal.

And at the risk of sounding like a commercial, I don't assemble ANY gasket dry since discovering Hylomar. Other than a couple of bucks for it, what's the down side? Even if it's not needed, it doesn't hurt anything. Just a bit of extra insurance.

IHTH

T

T

Just clean it off with some carb cleaner and see if that's where it's coming from.

Your leak is most likely coming from the left or right rear corners of your valley pan. It's the one spot that you typically can't see. I would check both corners. Then install a Superformanc valley pan special corner gasket. Make sure you don't mix up the left and right special corner gaskets that come with the Superformance kit🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓🤓 I would also use USAF jet fighter ultra glue👍👍👍

Brad - I hope you are using studs rather than bolts to hold that big stack of gaskets together? I'd hate to R&R that stack up from under the car. Not so bad if you have the engine flipped over on an engine stand though. Good luck!

Yes Brad!!! Andy is correct👍👍 Let's advance out of the early 80's and build it right this time👍👍 You got this Chief👍👍

I had a combination of studs and bolts the last time (and I don't recall why), but will look through my hardware and see if I still have the rest of the studs to make a full set.

Oh, and my new gaskets arrived today.

Great chief 👍👍👍

What's with the "Chief" stuff? My name ain't Justin and I don't street race a twin-turbo Pontiac.

Hylomar saved my butt once because a cork Holley fuel bowl gasket cracked sending fuel everywhere. I coated it just to make it glossy, and it fixed the leak. Never did get it fixed, I sold the car several months later.

I cant say enough good about it. I really like how it disassembles without destroying the gaskets

Chief means your in charge chief...Now go build that motor and make some power👍👍👍👍

ccdave, your outstanding character is duly noted.

Please, share with us your accomplishments and contributions to the automotive world.

If you believe you have received this message in error..... think again.

Really don't know how anybody wanting factual information can rely on a word ccdave says after reading threw many of his posts, very concerning.

bee1971, why all the deleted posts??

I did read them all but did not have time to sit down and respond. I work long hours and it's usually 7 days a week. Should there be a question or concern about our products a phone call is always welcome for a quick response.

I simply do not have the time so sit here and monitor Moparts 24/7 and cumulate lengthy responses to every technical question that can be accomplished in short order VIA phone.

Had entertained the thought of sending out a pair of oil pan gaskets at no charge to you. Not that I had to, but because I wanted you to be satisfied with the performance of our product. Guess I didn't move fast enough before this thread got muddied up beyond comprehension with jokes of torque values and other nonsense.

Thanks for wasting my time typing responses to jokes from other threads. It's no wonder why a vast amount of knowledge has disappeared from this forum, very unfortunate.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Thanks for sharing how you feel with the group. I will try to take how to prevent oil leaks a bit more serious next time it's brought up. As a customer of yours it's a shame you feel I'm waisting your time, very concerning and unfortunate....

Road hazard I sent you a PM

Peace

Scott

I'm late to the feud, but go to your local Mazda dealer with about 50 bucks, ask for a tube of Mazda Three Bond, and never have a leak again.

bee1971 and ccdave, thank you for the PM's.

I think we have this all cleared up and can move on with the greatest show on earth..... MOPAR's!

Sales have been big for us at Superformance Products this year and I owe a lot of it to moparts members sharing the good word and experience with our products

Thank you all
Greg