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10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? #1721815
01/05/15 12:48 AM
01/05/15 12:48 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
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Torquemonster440 Offline OP
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Torquemonster440  Offline OP
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Joined: May 2014
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California, U.S.A.
Hey guys; I know this topic has been discussed time and again on this forum, but even after reading all the replies using the search feature I'm still not sure. Because of budget concerns I'm using a set of upgraded 906's that i scored for a good deal. I don't have the coin for a set of closed chamber aluminum heads... (wish i did).

My block is at the machine shop right now.. Being set up with KB237's in place of the awful trw 2388's that were in there. They were .140 in the hole !!! .. netting me a 7.78:1 static CR !!!!!

I need to know if you guys think I will be safe
running near stock 906's with a 10:1 static cr on 91 octane ?? I know cam plays a huge role in the equation. I'm planning on keeping the .528 purple shaft i just installed less than 6 months ago.. Advertised intake closing on that cam is listed @ 72 ABDC.

If I plug the numbers into the Wallace Racing DCR calc using a 10:1 static CR it says i'm well within the "safe" zone.. "7.36:1 DCR" with 143 psi cranking pressure, but what i hear from some other posters on here is that I'm limited to no more than a 9.5:1 static CR to keep it safe.{avoid detonation}

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to reply.

Last edited by Torquemonster440; 01/05/15 04:19 AM.

1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721816
01/05/15 01:08 AM
01/05/15 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,477
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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So Cal
I'm at DCR of 7.92:1, SCR 9.7:1. And around .035" quench.

My cam has a ABDC of 63.

On pump So Cal 91 octane I'm on the close side of pinging at 31 deg total on my 416 stroker. Just a little more timing and I ping.

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: autoxcuda] #1721817
01/05/15 01:31 AM
01/05/15 01:31 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
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Torquemonster440 Offline OP
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Torquemonster440  Offline OP
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Yikes !! even with a .035 quench and 9.7:1, you're still having detonation problems. These 906's have no quench, I'm hoping my cam will be my saving grace..


1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721818
01/05/15 01:52 AM
01/05/15 01:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,477
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Quote:

Yikes !! even with a .035 quench and 9.7:1, you're still having detonation problems. These 906's have no quench, I'm hoping my cam will be my saving grace..




But my DCR is higher. I've get a smaller cam than you.

Is you SCR of 10:1 actual measured from CC'ing you heads, measured dish or relief CC's, and measuring piston top to deck of assembled motor, etc...?

Last edited by autoxcuda; 01/05/15 01:58 AM.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: autoxcuda] #1721819
01/05/15 02:48 AM
01/05/15 02:48 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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GTX MATT  Offline
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I think you will be ok but you may need to pay close attention to your ignition curve to avoid issues. If it doesn't work you can change to the .051 inch fel pros which would drop you to around 9.7.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: GTX MATT] #1721820
01/05/15 03:13 AM
01/05/15 03:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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Balt. Md
My old 440 had 906 heads and I used the KB quench pad pistons. I had it right at 10.0 comp and right around .045 to .050 quench as you really have to work alot to get all the quench as even as I could. I ran 38 total timing all in by 2000 rpm and I used the MP .557 cam on a 104 ICL. No ping at all running on 92 and 93 pump. I do run a 9.5 Dynamic street/strip converter and 4.30 gears as my 63 weighs just over 3700 lbs with me in it. But it worked fine on 92 pump and had no ping at all but it is a race type mech advance only dist as it has no vacum advance. Ron

Last edited by 383man; 01/05/15 03:15 AM.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: autoxcuda] #1721821
01/05/15 04:05 AM
01/05/15 04:05 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
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Torquemonster440 Offline OP
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California, U.S.A.
I have not CC'd the chambers.. I dont have the tools, or the money to get it done. So, i'm just giving it my best guess.. The heads have after market valves 2.14 int/1.81 exh and have been milled square. I'm really just guessing at an 88/89cc chamber. I'm thinking I'd like to zero deck the block for when I do come into the cash so I can just bolt on some closed chamber heads and easily dial in my quench with a .040 head gasket. The KB237's call for a +5cc for the valve reliefs. To achieve a zero deck I'd need to mill an additional .015 from the decks, but if I leave it, it may help with my no quench problem: shave a few points off of my static CR??? What do you guys think ??


1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: GTX MATT] #1721822
01/05/15 04:16 AM
01/05/15 04:16 AM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 179
California, U.S.A.
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Torquemonster440 Offline OP
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California, U.S.A.
Quote:

I think you will be ok but you may need to pay close attention to your ignition curve to avoid issues.




I'm also considering converting my dist to run with no vac advance.. just dial in the mechanical and go.. I dont care about mpg... I know every combo is different, but at what RPM should i want full advance for best performance ??


1966 Satellie.. 12.55 @107.75. 906 heads. 3780 lbs.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721823
01/05/15 04:42 AM
01/05/15 04:42 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 6,906
IL, Aurora
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ademon Offline
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Make sure you run as cold a plug as you can. I run 11.2 with a cranking psi of 200 on 93. I have a few other tricks to keep it happy.

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721824
01/05/15 04:55 AM
01/05/15 04:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,284
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Bend,OR USA
Call around to fine a veteinary supply store or one of the large animal vets and see if they will sale you a 500 CC syringe so you can CC your heads Having a thin 4.5 inch square plate of plexiglas helps also, you will need to put a small hole in it near the edge of one side to fill the chambers with what ever liquid you use. ( I use rubbing alchol with some food dye in it to see it better when filling) but some guys like a piece of thick glass(harder to put a hole in them without a diamond drill bit or cutter ) to use to seal the head combustion chamber up to check them. A little effort and not much money, you can do it to Don't be suprised to see a bunch of variences in the 4 chamber on each stock iron head and some variances between heads that are the same thickness on the outer head bolts I wouldn't run the compression up above 9.5 to 1 mechanical comp. ratio no matter what cam for pump gas, it(pump gas) ain't going to get any better than it is right now I've made 9.2 to 1 comp. ratio motor ping with iron heads and 34 degree timing and a cold plug when tuning on a hot day going up a slight hill at part throttle in high gear between 1700 and 2500 RPM in 75 degree weather here locally at or above 3500 Ft


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1721825
01/05/15 05:23 AM
01/05/15 05:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,477
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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So Cal
Quote:

Call around to fine a veteinary supply store or one of the large animal vets and see if they will sale you a 500 CC syringe so you can CC your heads Having a thin 4.5 inch square plate of plexiglas helps also, you will need to put a small hole in it near the edge of one side to fill the chambers with what ever liquid you use. ( I use rubbing alchol with some food dye in it to see it better when filling) but some guys like a piece of thick glass(harder to put a hole in them without a diamond drill bit or cutter ) to use to seal the head combustion chamber up to check them. A little effort and not much money, you can do it to Don't be suprised to see a bunch of variences in the 4 chamber on each stock iron head and some variances between heads that are the same thickness on the outer head bolts I wouldn't run the compression up above 9.5 to 1 mechanical comp. ratio no matter what cam for pump gas, it(pump gas) ain't going to get any better than it is right now I've made 9.2 to 1 comp. ratio motor ping with iron heads and 34 degree timing and a cold plug when tuning on a hot day going up a slight hill at part throttle in high gear between 1700 and 2500 RPM in 75 degree weather here locally at or above 3500 Ft




Here's a old clear acrylic car show trophy being used.

8385873-12_22_10Sm7.JPG (80 downloads)
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721826
01/05/15 09:13 AM
01/05/15 09:13 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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BSB67  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,318
Prospect, PA
Quote:

Hey guys; I know this topic has been discussed time and again on this forum, but even after reading all the replies using the search feature I'm still not sure. Because of budget concerns I'm using a set of upgraded 906's that i scored for a good deal. I don't have the coin for a set of closed chamber aluminum heads... (wish i did).

My block is at the machine shop right now.. Being set up with KB237's in place of the awful trw 2388's that were in there. They were .140 in the hole !!! .. netting me a 7.78:1 static CR !!!!!

I need to know if you guys think I will be safe
running near stock 906's with a 10:1 static cr on 91 octane ?? I know cam plays a huge role in the equation. I'm planning on keeping the .528 purple shaft i just installed less than 6 months ago.. Advertised intake closing on that cam is listed @ 72 ABDC.

If I plug the numbers into the Wallace Racing DCR calc using a 10:1 static CR it says i'm well within the "safe" zone.. "7.36:1 DCR" with 143 psi cranking pressure, but what i hear from some other posters on here is that I'm limited to no more than a 9.5:1 static CR to keep it safe.{avoid detonation}

Thanks in advance to anyone who takes the time to reply.




Personally, I don't believe the results of Wallace dynamic compression calculator. The same calculator used on other sites state to put in the @ 0.050" numbers for intake closing. When I use the Wallace calculator, the cranking pressure is a lot lower than actual.

Checked one of the other sites. It has you at 8.2:1 dynamic, and about 165 psi. FWIW

Last edited by BSB67; 01/05/15 09:36 AM.
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: BSB67] #1721827
01/05/15 10:06 AM
01/05/15 10:06 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,522
Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
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Wedgeman Offline
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Ste-Sophie, Quebec, Canada
With the cr calculator on the KB website and wallace, I've always been dead on for cr and cylinder pressure..

My last combo was 10.1:1 static and 9:1 dynamic with a set of RHS heads, mec advance only 34*advance, 255/262 @ .050 cam, and plenty of fun !
You'll be fine....

Dan

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721828
01/05/15 02:01 PM
01/05/15 02:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
GTX MATT Offline
master
GTX MATT  Offline
master

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
Quote:

I have not CC'd the chambers.. I dont have the tools, or the money to get it done. So, i'm just giving it my best guess.. The heads have after market valves 2.14 int/1.81 exh and have been milled square. I'm really just guessing at an 88/89cc chamber. I'm thinking I'd like to zero deck the block for when I do come into the cash so I can just bolt on some closed chamber heads and easily dial in my quench with a .040 head gasket. The KB237's call for a +5cc for the valve reliefs. To achieve a zero deck I'd need to mill an additional .015 from the decks, but if I leave it, it may help with my no quench problem: shave a few points off of my static CR??? What do you guys think ??




If you're .015 below the deck now you're only around 9.7 anyway. I'm figuring 86 CC since your heads have been milled true. I was assuming you're at 0 deck, have your decks been milled square? Are you sure you're .015 below?

If you are really .015 down a .051 head gasket will get you below 9.5 FWIW.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: GTX MATT] #1721829
01/05/15 02:20 PM
01/05/15 02:20 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
You should be fine. I ran a TRW "six-pack" pistoned 516 (ported and bigger valves) headed 440 w/ the 528 and it ran good. I had 36* of timing in full at 2200. I have no idea what the compression was but they were 74cc heads w/ steel shim gaskets.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1721830
01/05/15 02:40 PM
01/05/15 02:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
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lewtot184 Offline
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usa
i've tried 9.4:1 with no quench. it wouldn't run on 93 octane.

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: Torquemonster440] #1721831
01/05/15 03:11 PM
01/05/15 03:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Are KB237s a flat-top or quench-dome style? IF you have the quench-dome type AND they're set up carefully to create a .040-.050" collision area w/ the head, you're probably OK.

IF they're flat-tops, all I can tell you is that I ran OEM iron heads having 9.8 CR (measured) w/ a 254/254 at .050" solid on 108 LSA and it needed 93-octane pump fuel plus octane booster that probably added 1 to 1.5 points (94+) to stay out of detonation under certain loads.

That engine was cranking 175-180 PSI and was right on the edge for a non-quench engine, IMO.

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: BradH] #1721832
01/05/15 03:50 PM
01/05/15 03:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,166
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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That seems like alot of cranking compression for that CR and duration - how much lash did you run?


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: GTX MATT] #1721833
01/05/15 07:47 PM
01/05/15 07:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
.018"; it was a pretty aggressive lobe w/ only 282-ish adv. seat duration. The engine had mimal leakdown, too (well under 5%).

Re: 10:1 cr ok for my combo ?? [Re: BradH] #1721834
01/05/15 10:01 PM
01/05/15 10:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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dogdays Offline
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A KB237 is a flat top, 2.067 comp height, 5cc valve notches.

I don't think you're going to be happy with the setup. The .528 mechanical cam is pretty mild. At 30 over you're at 914cc per cylinder. To get "n" compression ratio you divide the cylinder size by (n-1) to get the volume above the piston.

914 / 9 = 101.6cc which will give 10.0:1 compression.
If you use an 11cc gasket at zero deck with an 85cc head and the 5cc valve notch you are right at 10.0:1 and it's going to knock.

Some things may help...Keeping the intake charge as cool as possible and scavenging all the exhaust gas out with headers are two of the things that Mazda found to be valuable in reducing an engine's octane needs. (Skyactiv technology running 13.5:1 on regular gas).

But I doubt it'll work.

R.

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