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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: Grizzly]
#1714185
01/12/15 12:08 AM
01/12/15 12:08 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 198
Hershey, PA
73MagDuster
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 198
Hershey, PA
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Quote:
73MagDuster:
Where does your machine plug into: the OBD port, or directly to the EDR?
It depends. Most newer vehicles can be accessed through the OBD, some you don't even need the keys. If the wiring is damaged or it is not safe to power the car up you can direct connect to the module.
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714186
01/12/15 03:07 AM
01/12/15 03:07 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:
Quote:
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best.
It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at.
Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed.
I'm glad I'm out now.
:yawn: I've been a mechanic for over 30 years so I've seen a lot myself  You claim it is "innocent" I say it's not. You seem to have some delusion that an adjuster is going to spend 8 LARGE for a tool and 1100 per year to illegally access data- with NO financial incentive.  People do unethical Sh!t to MAKE money.  
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714187
01/12/15 03:34 AM
01/12/15 03:34 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
WV
Stoga
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 10
WV
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Quote:
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Sorry, couldn't let this slide. For being "not at fault", Toyota sure paid one heck of large fine for not doing due diligence. The myth of the superior Toyota needs to be drowned in a bucket.
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714189
01/12/15 08:27 AM
01/12/15 08:27 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,874
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
not_a_charger
Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
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Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,874
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
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Quote:
Quote:
The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner.
I have already pointed this out, if you have the coin you can buy the proper unit for retrieving the data.
Just so were clear, we both understand a normal scan tool will not obtain the data. If you wish to pop $8000 or so you can get the tool that does.
An adjuster and/or an insurance company would have virtually no incentive to spend that kind of coin on a piece of equipment that would provide no tangible benefit whatsoever. Smaller companies don't have that kind of budget. Larger companies have too many appraisers. Which appraisers do you give it to? What do you do with the illegally obtained data? You can't use it in court, which makes it worthless.
And again, they would have no need for the data unless it were a fatality/serious injury/product liability type issue, in which case it could be obtained by subpoena and then utilized. It's not needed in the majority of fatality/serious injury cases anyway, so if an insurer needed the data and obtained a subpoena, it would be far cheaper to pay someone to retrieve the data than it would be to pay for expensive equipment themselves, only to have it sit around and collect dust.
20 years of handling claims, thousands of accident claims handled, and I can think of 2 times that I've been involved in claims where crash data was needed. One was a fatality, one was a product liability situation. That's 2 out of thousands, including (unfortunately), a few hundred fatalities.
It's not an ethical/unethical thing. It's a smart business thing. There's no benefit to the insurer to spend the money to have the equipment.
Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck.
DBAP
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714191
01/12/15 08:39 AM
01/12/15 08:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,874
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
not_a_charger
Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
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Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 19,874
Puttin' on the foil in Charles...
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^ Agreed that most of the Toyota problem was driver error, just as it was with the Jeep Grand Cherokee issue from several years back.
Driver error has put food on my table since I was 23 years old.
Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck.
DBAP
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714192
01/12/15 04:59 PM
01/12/15 04:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,005
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,005
Oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Sorry, couldn't let this slide. For being "not at fault", Toyota sure paid one heck of large fine for not doing due diligence. The myth of the superior Toyota needs to be drowned in a bucket.
ahem- http://www.nhtsa.gov/UA
Its called a shakedown. Toyota paid money to make bad press go away.
I never stated Toyota was superior, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I'd wager that in the majority of cases driver error is the problem.
Just like this poor schmuck who let his Hellcat get away from him.
Yep, the Toyota deal was nothing more than a shakedown by greedy lawyers. Bad thing is that the gov piled on for some reason. Most likely due to campaign contributions from said greedy lawyers. The Audi deal was the same thing years ago. Same deal with "exploding gas tanks" and other such nonsense. I went to law school with some of the scum who perpetuate this mess.
Back to the topic on hand. If I was a Hellcat engineer I'd love to see the black box data. Just be interesting to see if the stabilty control was turned off or not. If it was on I'd like to crunch the numbers to see what if anything could've been solved. Maybe the dude was just going too fast for anything to save him but I don't know. The 4 wheel slide job tells me that he could've been saved by a computer who knew more about driving than the driver.
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: Blusmbl]
#1714194
01/15/15 12:01 PM
01/15/15 12:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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Quote:
Quote:
^ Agreed that most of the Toyota problem was driver error, just as it was with the Jeep Grand Cherokee issue from several years back.
I'd agree- most, but not all. There are several reports of stack overflow issues in their ECU's. I doubt the majority of their claims were legitimate computing errors though:
"Skid marks notwithstanding, two of the plaintiffs’ software experts, Phillip Koopman, and Michael Barr, provided fascinating insights into the myriad problems with Toyota’s software development process and its source code – possible bit flips, task deaths that would disable the failsafes, memory corruption, single-point failures, inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow, single-fault containment regions, thousands of global variables. The list of deficiencies in process and product was lengthy."
So how does this prevent the hydraulic brakes from functioning?
Or the key from shutting the engine off?
Or the gearshift lever being moved to neutral?
Driver error. Skid marks from parking brake? duh. I can leave you some a mile or two long if you like. Its for PARKING not stopping the car.
"Jean Bookout and Barbara Schwarz sued Toyota Motor on products liability and wrongful death theories claiming to have been injured and/or damaged in a car wreck in 2007 in Oklahoma County, Oklahoma caused by the 2005 Camry Bookout, age 82"
82? I suspect that is part of the issue right there.
I'm pushing 50 and my reaction time and situational awareness while driving isn't as sharp as it once was which is all part of growing old. 82? Don't get me started..
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: Skeptic]
#1714195
01/15/15 12:37 PM
01/15/15 12:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best.
It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at.
Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed.
I'm glad I'm out now.
:yawn: I've been a mechanic for over 30 years so I've seen a lot myself You claim it is "innocent" I say it's not. You seem to have some delusion that an adjuster is going to spend 8 LARGE for a tool and 1100 per year to illegally access data- with NO financial incentive. People do unethical Sh!t to MAKE money.
What would you say if I was on a local chrysler dealership's lot one night, picking up my serviced truck at closing time, when they were moving lot stock back behind the fence...
and the lot jockey was doing this:
1) it was wintertime (cold)
2) jockey gets in unsold vehicle
3) starts engine
4) before you can even bat an eye, puts it to the floor to move it back behind the fence
5) repeat for all the other cars
I don't know about you, but I got two things from that experience
either minimum wage lot labor is an incredibly bad idea, or they were actually trying to spin/gall bearings or cause premature engine damage for warranty work
This was not that many years ago. I want to say '09/'10. I can't speak to the motive, or if that guy was just having a bad night, but I got a sick feeling after seeing that because that's where I bought my vehicle from.
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714197
01/15/15 01:37 PM
01/15/15 01:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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I'm glad you noticed and spoke up. too bad there are so many other people out there that don't care.
If I ever buy a new car again, and this may be a little extreme, I wanted to do a factory order and actually be there when they back it off the car transport.
I honestly can't imagine picking up a hellcat that's been sitting around the dealer.. yeah, no one's going to hop in that and nail it out of the dealership, all fluids cold
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714198
01/15/15 01:43 PM
01/15/15 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,164
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,164
Plymouth, MI
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Quote:
So how does this prevent the hydraulic brakes from functioning?
Or the key from shutting the engine off?
Or the gearshift lever being moved to neutral?
Driver error. Skid marks from parking brake? duh. I can leave you some a mile or two long if you like. Its for PARKING not stopping the car.
Agree that a proficient driver should be able to recover. That doesn't mean Toyota isn't without fault if the engine runs away without driver input, which is completely possible with stack overflow software issues. There is no way every one of those cars ran away with somebody's foot or floor mat stuck on the pedal.
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714202
01/15/15 04:32 PM
01/15/15 04:32 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Even to the point of identifying which corner it was. Even if your car does not have any other GPS antennae visible... Yes, we discussed disabling the antennae and all I got was "Good luck finding it".
http://www.spyville.com/gps-detector.html
"The GPS unit itself does not put any signal out so our GPS detector will not locate any passive gps trackers."
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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck
[Re: gdonovan]
#1714203
01/15/15 05:18 PM
01/15/15 05:18 PM
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,999
Salem
Grizzly
Moparts Proctologist
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Moparts Proctologist
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,999
Salem
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Yeah, so in other words whoever gets to play big brother (insurance company, law enforcement, or the vehicle manufacture) with your VIN, has access from HQ to retrieve CDR data. No surprise. A Friend bought a new '99 Duramax and in the first year he owned it, took it hunting. He was backing his hunting shack into their camp and heard a pop in the front-end. Broken CV shaft. So, he presses onstar. Tells them he needs it out and to the dealer for warranty repair. After confirming some info with him, the Operator says "we can see here that you are not on a public road, therefore you have to tow it yourself and pay the dealer to fix it". As a Man who would never own anything but a general motors product he stopped everything he was doing, got a flat-bed and literally parked the duramax on the doorstep of the nearest dealer. He cancelled his credit card and stopped payment on his lease. He went to a Ford dealership, made a deal on a Powerstroke and told general motors they would never see him again. He's a hot-head and had the whole thing wrapped up in about 2 days. That was in late '99 and He still tells that story and proudly drives his Ford. 15 years ago this happened. Imagine what will be available to them 15 years from now. So, this huge state of denial to honor warranty, pay insurance claims and proof of innocence has quietly taken a gigantic leap in big brothers' favor. As usual, follow the money.  Lastly, for anyone who believes toyota's going WFO on their own was caused by floormats, you really need to do some reading. When a manufacturer comes up with three BS excuses for one problem you really should stop believing what comes next. If they come up with brake-by-wire will you buy one? Toyota paid dearly to sweep that one under the rug, and it paid off. They are still in business. 
Mo' Farts
Moderated by "tbagger".
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