Posted By: keyser soze
SRT Hellcat wreck
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/22/14 11:13 PM
Ive seen how ALOT of people drive in CO. So im not really surprised. Would use to say that when you fail your drivers test in Nebraska, they would give you green license plates....
Posted By: gregsrt
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/22/14 11:54 PM
Repost
Posted By: amxautox
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 12:21 AM
Quote:you HAVE to include a link to the original thread, or it doesn't count as a repost report.
Repost
here in the General Forum;
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...e=0&fpart=1
Posted By: AndyF
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 12:48 AM
I'm okay with the repost in this section if people talk about why the guy lost control of the car.
In the pictures it looks like the guy came over a small hill and immediately lost it in a slight corner. I will say that at high speeds that small corner gets tough to handle. Especially with a heavy car that has unloaded tires by coming over the crest of the hill.
Anyone drive one of the new Challengers yet with stability control? I haven't driven one so I don't know how well they handle or if the stability control even helps.
I will say I've watched a bunch of rally races where the guy comes flying over a hill with the car in the air and he lands the car goes around the corner and doesn't miss a beat. Looks to me like this guy came flying over the hill, panicked and locked up the tires and drove it straight into a tree with the tires locked. Perhaps if he had lifted off the brakes and used his steering wheel he could've continued right up the road?
In the pictures it looks like the guy came over a small hill and immediately lost it in a slight corner. I will say that at high speeds that small corner gets tough to handle. Especially with a heavy car that has unloaded tires by coming over the crest of the hill.
Anyone drive one of the new Challengers yet with stability control? I haven't driven one so I don't know how well they handle or if the stability control even helps.
I will say I've watched a bunch of rally races where the guy comes flying over a hill with the car in the air and he lands the car goes around the corner and doesn't miss a beat. Looks to me like this guy came flying over the hill, panicked and locked up the tires and drove it straight into a tree with the tires locked. Perhaps if he had lifted off the brakes and used his steering wheel he could've continued right up the road?
Posted By: DynoDave
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 01:16 AM
Glad everyone is OK.
Dibs on the powertrain!
Dibs on the powertrain!
Posted By: cudazappa
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 01:53 AM
Looking at the photos that's what I see as well. Crested a hill mid corner. Dipped a tire on the grass on the passenger side, corrected off of that too much.
Kind of what I did at Carlisle.
Kind of what I did at Carlisle.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 02:13 AM
The Challenger with ESP on is pretty stupid proof. But, if he held down the button long enough, he had better know what he's doing.
The ESP is pretty invasive (in my opinion) and if it was on would save most people. If he flat out was carrying too much speed, there is nothing that's going to help him.
The ESP is pretty invasive (in my opinion) and if it was on would save most people. If he flat out was carrying too much speed, there is nothing that's going to help him.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 04:45 AM
Yeah, my (somewhat educated) guess is that he was going around 100 mph when he came over the hill. I'm basing that on the damage to the car and the length of the skid marks. I figure he hit the tree at 35 or 40 mph to cause that much damage and that he scrubbed off 40 or 50 mph during the slide. 100 mph on a narrow two lane road with curves and whoop dee doos is higher than my pucker factor will allow.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 06:51 AM
Quote:
...
In the pictures it looks like the guy came over a small hill and immediately lost it in a slight corner. I will say that at high speeds that small corner gets tough to handle. Especially with a heavy car that has unloaded tires by coming over the crest of the hill....
Yeah I've done that!
It's a part of Willow Springs they always warn you about in drivers meetings.
After that, I disconnected my rear sway bar and it helped greatly. Almost helped as much as me not getting on the gas too early with on a brand new motor with 200 more HP and 200 more TQ than I'm used to.
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/23/14 06:01 PM
Quote:
If he flat out was carrying too much speed, there is nothing that's going to help him.
Yep. In the end the laws of Physics > ESP.
-Michael
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/24/14 09:05 PM
Doesn't the Hellcat have ABS? Wondering why it appears to be a solid black set of stripes instead of some "chattering" looking tire marks on the pavement.
Or after your carrying the mail that fast the ABS just still smears the tires all over the road, or can the ABS be turned off in this car?
Or after your carrying the mail that fast the ABS just still smears the tires all over the road, or can the ABS be turned off in this car?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/24/14 09:34 PM
Just one more idiot ruining it for the rest of us. I can see it now,
"Hellcat banned in 24 states....." or "due to government regulation, you can no longer disable safety features on Chrysler vehicles...."
"Hellcat banned in 24 states....." or "due to government regulation, you can no longer disable safety features on Chrysler vehicles...."
Posted By: AndyF
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/24/14 10:16 PM
I don't think you can turn the ABS off (without pulling a fuse or cutting wires that is). I am pretty sure that you can turn the stability control off, but I don't think the Feds allow you to switch off the ABS.
My guess is that the skid marks are from the car sliding sideways but I'm not positive. Not sure why the guy would turn off the stability control but perhaps he wanted to do some burnouts.
Don't think we'll find out unless the drive holds a press conference. Doubtful that he is going to do that!
My guess is that the skid marks are from the car sliding sideways but I'm not positive. Not sure why the guy would turn off the stability control but perhaps he wanted to do some burnouts.
Don't think we'll find out unless the drive holds a press conference. Doubtful that he is going to do that!
Posted By: amxautox
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/24/14 10:18 PM
Quote:I don't think so either if he wants the ins. co. to pay up. They'll probably claim he was racing, and no coverage.
Don't think we'll find out unless the drive holds a press conference. Doubtful that he is going to do that!
Posted By: AndyF
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/24/14 10:21 PM
My guess is that the insurance company has already taken a look at the black box data and they know exactly what the poor dude was up to.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/25/14 03:54 AM
That black box deal from 2013? and newer cars having the black box is intrusive.......
Another federal mandate probably by the $$$$ of insurance company lobbyists.
Another federal mandate probably by the $$$$ of insurance company lobbyists.
Posted By: Triggerfish
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 12/25/14 04:53 AM
One of the local Dodge dealerships is a customer of ours & when I took some Christmas goodies over to them, I asked the sales mngr how he liked the 2 Hellcats they just sold (both 6 spd manuals to the same guy!), and he said
it was absolutely scary to drive. He said if you punched it at 60 mph,
the tires broke loose. Man, I wanted a test drive, but got there too late.
Sad to see this green one get totalled right out of the box, but with that much power on command...maybe Mopar should include a driver's course with each one!
it was absolutely scary to drive. He said if you punched it at 60 mph,
the tires broke loose. Man, I wanted a test drive, but got there too late.
Sad to see this green one get totalled right out of the box, but with that much power on command...maybe Mopar should include a driver's course with each one!
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/10/15 02:10 PM
Quote:
Anyone drive one of the new Challengers yet with stability control? I haven't driven one so I don't know how well they handle or if the stability control even helps.
I have a 2014 and if you are fooling about it kicks in. The car will try to "save" itself between depowering the engine and working with the ABS system in some cases.
Neat sliding around a corner and having it kick in, car will straighten itself right out.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/10/15 11:18 PM
"black box" data has been around since 2000 or so if not earlier.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/10/15 11:23 PM
I had an 09 SRT8 challenger, the ABS/ESC stuff can be pretty intrusive depending on how you drive. Turning all that stuff off and driving is a pretty eye opening experience - not like the "old" days. It would be really easy to wreck one of those cars without it - not even considering the 392 or hellcat....
Posted By: moparx
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 12:35 AM
anybody know if that car has been sold for salvage ? if so, what did it bring ?
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 01:52 PM
Quote:
I had an 09 SRT8 challenger, the ABS/ESC stuff can be pretty intrusive depending on how you drive. Turning all that stuff off and driving is a pretty eye opening experience - not like the "old" days. It would be really easy to wreck one of those cars without it - not even considering the 392 or hellcat....
If I recall from an interview with the SRT team you really can't turn it off 100% it just scales back how intrusive it is.
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 02:09 PM
Quote:
My guess is that the insurance company has already taken a look at the black box data and they know exactly what the poor dude was up to.
Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing. The accident happened on a public street, and the car was being driven by the owner. The accident is clearly his fault. The only reasons the insurance company would need black box data is if there were some dispute in liability, or if accident reconstruction was needed for some reason (lawsuit, injuries, question of product liability, etc...).
The bottom line is that stupidity, recklessness, and lack of driving skill are all covered by your insurance policy.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 04:34 PM
Quote:
Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing.
For most states the insurance company can't access the data without the car owners permission. Courts have ruled the owner of the car also owns control of the data. Police can access the data if there is a fatality with a subpoena.
Of course if the vehicle is in a body shop lot and someone has access to the vehicle and keys with the right equipment who is to stop them from plugging in and retrieving the data?
BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering.
Posted By: Blusmbl
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 05:14 PM
Quote:
The bottom line is that stupidity, recklessness, and lack of driving skill are all covered by your insurance policy.
Yes!!!
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 07:44 PM
Quote:Quote:
Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing.
For most states the insurance company can't access the data without the car owners permission. Courts have ruled the owner of the car also owns control of the data. Police can access the data if there is a fatality with a subpoena.
Of course if the vehicle is in a body shop lot and someone has access to the vehicle and keys with the right equipment who is to stop them from plugging in and retrieving the data?
BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering.
It can be obtained by suboena in other instances as well if there is a compelling reason to do so. It's rare that it's needed at all. The vehicle owner owns everything in the car...insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission. Lacking that, they can try a subpoena.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 08:41 PM
Quote:
insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission.
While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door.
No one would be the wiser.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 09:17 PM
Quote:Quote:
insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission.
While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door.
No one would be the wiser.
Not likely
1)Body shops usually are not equipped with scan tools. They normally sublet having modules reflashed/reprogrammed.
2) Crash data isn't something you can pull up with a code reader, I doubt it's available at a normal dealer level access, but OE at minimum.
3) If the Insurance Co wanted the data they could get it, either via a subpoena, or access it after they total it without any marginally legal shenanigans.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 11:11 PM
Quote:
BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering.
Is that where the data recorder is? I was under the impression that it is positioned elsewhere in the vehicle so that it can easily be removed and "read" by big brother. The case that comes to mind is from the late '90's and it was in regards to a Firebird/camaro that had the black-box hidden inside a door panel. The Owner was sueing someone for using the info against Him........
I agree with what Not-a-Charger is saying for the time being. But since our society keeps moving towards a "SOL, Buddy" model, eventually people can expect nothing out of an insurance company, kinda like "warranty" on a new vehicle.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/11/15 11:51 PM
Quote:
Not likely
1)Body shops usually are not equipped with scan tools. They normally sublet having modules reflashed/reprogrammed.
I never stated the body shop would scan it, I was referring to the insurance adjuster. The body shop isn't going to stop them and the owner isn't there.
Quote:
2) Crash data isn't something you can pull up with a code reader, I doubt it's available at a normal dealer level access, but OE at minimum.
The equipment is available for sale if you have the coin. An average shop isn't going to have any need for it but an insurance company might invest in the equipment.
Quote:
3) If the Insurance Co wanted the data they could get it, either via a subpoena, or access it after they total it without any marginally legal shenanigans.
1) Who is saying shenanigans? Could be as innocent as asking the body shop for access to a vehicle that is wrecked so an appraisal can be performed. Body shop isn't going to say boo.
2) A longtime friend of mine runs a body shop, I have witnessed some funky stuff from adjusters. Saw an adjuster once total a car after it needed a few more hundred bucks worth damage. I think wrecker backed into it by "accident" and got the number where it needed to be.
oops.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 12:02 AM
Quote:
Depends on the vehicle but they are either on vehicle network bus or directly integrated into the ECM. I had lots of training from Mopar on the various buses and protocols used but don't recall the subject ever coming up in training but its been a few years.
I suspect on Chryslers its in the ECM or TIPM (if they still call it that) or the airbag module would be a logical place. I don't recall a separate module anywhere and it would be cheaper to integrate it into a module that is already there and has access to the data stream.
I'm sure Chrysler can read the information sans vehicle and in a big case they might send the module in to be read. Not really sure on that point though as I don't recall any big cases off the top of my head that "black box" data was a pivotal piece of info.
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Posted By: 73MagDuster
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 01:20 AM
I have 2 Crash Data Retreival (CDR) machines at work. That is the only way to read most Event Data Recorders "black boxes" in cars. The only reason to have a CDR is to do accident investigation. Almost nobody except police and independent reconstruction firms have one. The full kit is about $8k and software runs about $1200 a year.
They are NOT mandated by the Feds. In 2013 the Feds made a minimum list of data a company had to store IF THEY CHOSE TO HAVE AN EDR.
Suprisingly some high end vehicles like BMW and Benz only started putting these in cars recently. GM started in the mid 90s.
Chrysler does have one of the more comprehensive data streams in theirs, including tire pressures and steering wheel angle.
Most EDR data is stored in the Airbag control module. There are some Fords that also save info in the PCM.
They are NOT mandated by the Feds. In 2013 the Feds made a minimum list of data a company had to store IF THEY CHOSE TO HAVE AN EDR.
Suprisingly some high end vehicles like BMW and Benz only started putting these in cars recently. GM started in the mid 90s.
Chrysler does have one of the more comprehensive data streams in theirs, including tire pressures and steering wheel angle.
Most EDR data is stored in the Airbag control module. There are some Fords that also save info in the PCM.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 01:26 AM
I wrote "Not Likely"- Not Impossible 
I just dove down the rabbit hole and discovered that cars/light trucks can be accessed by the Bosch CDR tool, GM cars and trucks have the most coverage, back to 1994. Before vehicles built pre 9-2012 it's a crap shoot as far as how much data there is or how to get it. This is the latest release software and supported vehicles.
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best. I still call shenanigans. The data would be useless in a legal case without a subpoena. If the car is totaled, then in Ins Co owns the car and has every right to access the modules.
I just dove down the rabbit hole and discovered that cars/light trucks can be accessed by the Bosch CDR tool, GM cars and trucks have the most coverage, back to 1994. Before vehicles built pre 9-2012 it's a crap shoot as far as how much data there is or how to get it. This is the latest release software and supported vehicles.
Quote:
Who is saying shenanigans? Could be as innocent as asking the body shop for access to a vehicle that is wrecked so an appraisal can be performed.
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best. I still call shenanigans. The data would be useless in a legal case without a subpoena. If the car is totaled, then in Ins Co owns the car and has every right to access the modules.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 01:41 AM
73MagDuster:
Where does your machine plug into: the OBD port, or directly to the EDR?
Where does your machine plug into: the OBD port, or directly to the EDR?
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 02:04 AM
Quote:
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best.
It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at.
Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed.
I'm glad I'm out now.
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 03:03 AM
Quote:Quote:
insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission.
While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door.
No one would be the wiser.
The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner. Plus, no insurance company is going to waste money on a ridiculously expensive piece of equipment that their appraiser is unlikely to ever need or utilize. THEY DON'T CARE if you were drunk, speeding, etc...all of that is covered by your insurance. It doesn't get the insurance company off the hook at all. Even if the insurer did as you suggest, they wouldn't be able to use the info anyway, since it would've been obtained illegally.
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 03:05 AM
Quote:
I have 2 Crash Data Retreival (CDR) machines at work. That is the only way to read most Event Data Recorders "black boxes" in cars. The only reason to have a CDR is to do accident investigation. Almost nobody except police and independent reconstruction firms have one. The full kit is about $8k and software runs about $1200 a year.
^ pay attention to this guy. He's correct.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 03:41 AM
Quote:
The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner.
I have already pointed this out, if you have the coin you can buy the proper unit for retrieving the data.
Just so were clear, we both understand a normal scan tool will not obtain the data. If you wish to pop $8000 or so you can get the tool that does.
Posted By: jcc
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 03:53 AM
Does this $8K? tool delete the info also?
Posted By: 73MagDuster
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 04:08 AM
Quote:
73MagDuster:
Where does your machine plug into: the OBD port, or directly to the EDR?
It depends. Most newer vehicles can be accessed through the OBD, some you don't even need the keys. If the wiring is damaged or it is not safe to power the car up you can direct connect to the module.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 07:07 AM
Quote::yawn: I've been a mechanic for over 30 years so I've seen a lot myselfQuote:
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best.
It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at.
Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed.
I'm glad I'm out now.
You claim it is "innocent" I say it's not. You seem to have some delusion that an adjuster is going to spend 8 LARGE for a tool and 1100 per year to illegally access data- with NO financial incentive. 
People do unethical Sh!t to MAKE money. 
Posted By: Stoga
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 07:34 AM
Quote:
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Sorry, couldn't let this slide. For being "not at fault", Toyota sure paid one heck of large fine for not doing due diligence. The myth of the superior Toyota needs to be drowned in a bucket.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 12:23 PM
Quote::yawn: I've been a mechanic for over 30 years so I've seen a lot myself
You claim it is "innocent" I say it's not. You seem to have some delusion that an adjuster is going to spend 8 LARGE for a tool and 1100 per year to illegally access data- with NO financial incentive. People do unethical Sh!t to MAKE money. I never said the the adjuster would spend the money for the tool, the logical choice to do so would be the insurance company the adjuster works for.
And we all know insurance companies are fair when paying out for claims right?
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 12:27 PM
Quote:Quote:
The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner.
I have already pointed this out, if you have the coin you can buy the proper unit for retrieving the data.
Just so were clear, we both understand a normal scan tool will not obtain the data. If you wish to pop $8000 or so you can get the tool that does.
An adjuster and/or an insurance company would have virtually no incentive to spend that kind of coin on a piece of equipment that would provide no tangible benefit whatsoever. Smaller companies don't have that kind of budget. Larger companies have too many appraisers. Which appraisers do you give it to? What do you do with the illegally obtained data? You can't use it in court, which makes it worthless.
And again, they would have no need for the data unless it were a fatality/serious injury/product liability type issue, in which case it could be obtained by subpoena and then utilized. It's not needed in the majority of fatality/serious injury cases anyway, so if an insurer needed the data and obtained a subpoena, it would be far cheaper to pay someone to retrieve the data than it would be to pay for expensive equipment themselves, only to have it sit around and collect dust.
20 years of handling claims, thousands of accident claims handled, and I can think of 2 times that I've been involved in claims where crash data was needed. One was a fatality, one was a product liability situation. That's 2 out of thousands, including (unfortunately), a few hundred fatalities.
It's not an ethical/unethical thing. It's a smart business thing. There's no benefit to the insurer to spend the money to have the equipment.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 12:28 PM
Quote:Quote:
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Sorry, couldn't let this slide. For being "not at fault", Toyota sure paid one heck of large fine for not doing due diligence. The myth of the superior Toyota needs to be drowned in a bucket.
ahem- http://www.nhtsa.gov/UA
Its called a shakedown. Toyota paid money to make bad press go away.
I never stated Toyota was superior, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I'd wager that in the majority of cases driver error is the problem.
Just like this poor schmuck who let his Hellcat get away from him.
Posted By: not_a_charger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 12:39 PM
^ Agreed that most of the Toyota problem was driver error, just as it was with the Jeep Grand Cherokee issue from several years back.
Driver error has put food on my table since I was 23 years old.
Driver error has put food on my table since I was 23 years old.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/12/15 08:59 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration"
Sorry, couldn't let this slide. For being "not at fault", Toyota sure paid one heck of large fine for not doing due diligence. The myth of the superior Toyota needs to be drowned in a bucket.
ahem- http://www.nhtsa.gov/UA
Its called a shakedown. Toyota paid money to make bad press go away.
I never stated Toyota was superior, thanks for putting words in my mouth. I'd wager that in the majority of cases driver error is the problem.
Just like this poor schmuck who let his Hellcat get away from him.
Yep, the Toyota deal was nothing more than a shakedown by greedy lawyers. Bad thing is that the gov piled on for some reason. Most likely due to campaign contributions from said greedy lawyers. The Audi deal was the same thing years ago. Same deal with "exploding gas tanks" and other such nonsense. I went to law school with some of the scum who perpetuate this mess.
Back to the topic on hand. If I was a Hellcat engineer I'd love to see the black box data. Just be interesting to see if the stabilty control was turned off or not. If it was on I'd like to crunch the numbers to see what if anything could've been solved. Maybe the dude was just going too fast for anything to save him but I don't know. The 4 wheel slide job tells me that he could've been saved by a computer who knew more about driving than the driver.
Posted By: Blusmbl
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 03:31 PM
Quote:
^ Agreed that most of the Toyota problem was driver error, just as it was with the Jeep Grand Cherokee issue from several years back.
I'd agree- most, but not all. There are several reports of stack overflow issues in their ECU's. I doubt the majority of their claims were legitimate computing errors though:
http://www.safetyresearch.net/blog/artic...i%E2%80%9D-code
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 04:01 PM
Quote:Quote:
^ Agreed that most of the Toyota problem was driver error, just as it was with the Jeep Grand Cherokee issue from several years back.
I'd agree- most, but not all. There are several reports of stack overflow issues in their ECU's. I doubt the majority of their claims were legitimate computing errors though:
"Skid marks notwithstanding, two of the plaintiffs’ software experts, Phillip Koopman, and Michael Barr, provided fascinating insights into the myriad problems with Toyota’s software development process and its source code – possible bit flips, task deaths that would disable the failsafes, memory corruption, single-point failures, inadequate protections against stack overflow and buffer overflow, single-fault containment regions, thousands of global variables. The list of deficiencies in process and product was lengthy."
So how does this prevent the hydraulic brakes from functioning?
Or the key from shutting the engine off?
Or the gearshift lever being moved to neutral?
Driver error. Skid marks from parking brake? duh. I can leave you some a mile or two long if you like. Its for PARKING not stopping the car.
"Jean Bookout and Barbara Schwarz sued Toyota Motor on products liability and wrongful death theories claiming to have been injured and/or damaged in a car wreck in 2007 in Oklahoma County, Oklahoma caused by the 2005 Camry Bookout, age 82"
82? I suspect that is part of the issue right there.
I'm pushing 50 and my reaction time and situational awareness while driving isn't as sharp as it once was which is all part of growing old. 82? Don't get me started..
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 04:37 PM
Quote:Quote::yawn: I've been a mechanic for over 30 years so I've seen a lot myselfQuote:
There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best.
It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at.
Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed.
I'm glad I'm out now.
What would you say if I was on a local chrysler dealership's lot one night, picking up my serviced truck at closing time, when they were moving lot stock back behind the fence...
and the lot jockey was doing this:
1) it was wintertime (cold)
2) jockey gets in unsold vehicle
3) starts engine
4) before you can even bat an eye, puts it to the floor to move it back behind the fence
5) repeat for all the other cars
I don't know about you, but I got two things from that experience
either minimum wage lot labor is an incredibly bad idea, or they were actually trying to spin/gall bearings or cause premature engine damage for warranty work
This was not that many years ago. I want to say '09/'10. I can't speak to the motive, or if that guy was just having a bad night, but I got a sick feeling after seeing that because that's where I bought my vehicle from.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 05:16 PM
Quote:
This was not that many years ago. I want to say '09/'10. I can't speak to the motive, or if that guy was just having a bad night, but I got a sick feeling after seeing that because that's where I bought my vehicle from.
They don't care, not their car.
I berated a member of the sales staff for the same thing years ago. Got in a turbo car, turned the key and stuffed it 3 seconds later.
Posted By: VincentVega
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 05:37 PM
I'm glad you noticed and spoke up. too bad there are so many other people out there that don't care.
If I ever buy a new car again, and this may be a little extreme, I wanted to do a factory order and actually be there when they back it off the car transport.
I honestly can't imagine picking up a hellcat that's been sitting around the dealer.. yeah, no one's going to hop in that and nail it out of the dealership, all fluids cold
If I ever buy a new car again, and this may be a little extreme, I wanted to do a factory order and actually be there when they back it off the car transport.
I honestly can't imagine picking up a hellcat that's been sitting around the dealer.. yeah, no one's going to hop in that and nail it out of the dealership, all fluids cold
Posted By: Blusmbl
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 05:43 PM
Quote:
So how does this prevent the hydraulic brakes from functioning?
Or the key from shutting the engine off?
Or the gearshift lever being moved to neutral?
Driver error. Skid marks from parking brake? duh. I can leave you some a mile or two long if you like. Its for PARKING not stopping the car.
Agree that a proficient driver should be able to recover. That doesn't mean Toyota isn't without fault if the engine runs away without driver input, which is completely possible with stack overflow software issues. There is no way every one of those cars ran away with somebody's foot or floor mat stuck on the pedal.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 05:43 PM
I'm in the same boat. If I were to buy a modern car at today's prices, Id just as soon custom order it and be there at the factory to pick it up as it rolls off the line. Especially in the case of a high performance model.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 07:48 PM
Had an interesting lunch yesterday and learned some new things about CDR data.
I learned that they can GPS your location and rebuild the point in time that your engine blows on track to make sure you don't get warranty. Even to the point of identifying which corner it was. Even if your car does not have any other GPS antennae visible... Yes, we discussed disabling the antennae and all I got was "Good luck finding it".
It was very enlightening to say the least.
I also confirmed that CDR data is available via the OBD port, but not part of the standard OBD signal. Officers (maybe not all) have the capability to download this data. An OBD port lock was suggested (didn't know they existed) to avoid data being collected without your permission (not at scene, unconscious, etc). The idea that the data is yours until subpoena seemed plausible, but I'm not a lawyer and don't get paid enough to act like one.
Just food for thought... believe it or not, don't ask where it came from.
I learned that they can GPS your location and rebuild the point in time that your engine blows on track to make sure you don't get warranty. Even to the point of identifying which corner it was. Even if your car does not have any other GPS antennae visible... Yes, we discussed disabling the antennae and all I got was "Good luck finding it".
It was very enlightening to say the least.
I also confirmed that CDR data is available via the OBD port, but not part of the standard OBD signal. Officers (maybe not all) have the capability to download this data. An OBD port lock was suggested (didn't know they existed) to avoid data being collected without your permission (not at scene, unconscious, etc). The idea that the data is yours until subpoena seemed plausible, but I'm not a lawyer and don't get paid enough to act like one.
Just food for thought... believe it or not, don't ask where it came from.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 07:59 PM
Quote:
Even to the point of identifying which corner it was. Even if your car does not have any other GPS antennae visible... Yes, we discussed disabling the antennae and all I got was "Good luck finding it".
http://www.spyville.com/gps-detector.html
Posted By: Consulier
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 08:32 PM
Quote:Quote:
Even to the point of identifying which corner it was. Even if your car does not have any other GPS antennae visible... Yes, we discussed disabling the antennae and all I got was "Good luck finding it".
http://www.spyville.com/gps-detector.html
"The GPS unit itself does not put any signal out so our GPS detector will not locate any passive gps trackers."
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 09:18 PM
Yeah, so in other words whoever gets to play big brother (insurance company, law enforcement, or the vehicle manufacture) with your VIN, has access from HQ to retrieve CDR data.
No surprise.
A Friend bought a new '99 Duramax and in the first year he owned it, took it hunting. He was backing his hunting shack into their camp and heard a pop in the front-end. Broken CV shaft.
So, he presses onstar. Tells them he needs it out and to the dealer for warranty repair. After confirming some info with him, the Operator says "we can see here that you are not on a public road, therefore you have to tow it yourself and pay the dealer to fix it".
As a Man who would never own anything but a general motors product he stopped everything he was doing, got a flat-bed and literally parked the duramax on the doorstep of the nearest dealer. He cancelled his credit card and stopped payment on his lease. He went to a Ford dealership, made a deal on a Powerstroke and told general motors they would never see him again. He's a hot-head and had the whole thing wrapped up in about 2 days.
That was in late '99 and He still tells that story and proudly drives his Ford.
15 years ago this happened. Imagine what will be available to them 15 years from now.
So, this huge state of denial to honor warranty, pay insurance claims and proof of innocence has quietly taken a gigantic leap in big brothers' favor. As usual, follow the money.
Lastly, for anyone who believes toyota's going WFO on their own was caused by floormats, you really need to do some reading. When a manufacturer comes up with three BS excuses for one problem you really should stop believing what comes next. If they come up with brake-by-wire will you buy one?
Toyota paid dearly to sweep that one under the rug, and it paid off. They are still in business.
No surprise.
A Friend bought a new '99 Duramax and in the first year he owned it, took it hunting. He was backing his hunting shack into their camp and heard a pop in the front-end. Broken CV shaft.
So, he presses onstar. Tells them he needs it out and to the dealer for warranty repair. After confirming some info with him, the Operator says "we can see here that you are not on a public road, therefore you have to tow it yourself and pay the dealer to fix it".
As a Man who would never own anything but a general motors product he stopped everything he was doing, got a flat-bed and literally parked the duramax on the doorstep of the nearest dealer. He cancelled his credit card and stopped payment on his lease. He went to a Ford dealership, made a deal on a Powerstroke and told general motors they would never see him again. He's a hot-head and had the whole thing wrapped up in about 2 days.
That was in late '99 and He still tells that story and proudly drives his Ford.
15 years ago this happened. Imagine what will be available to them 15 years from now.
So, this huge state of denial to honor warranty, pay insurance claims and proof of innocence has quietly taken a gigantic leap in big brothers' favor. As usual, follow the money.
Lastly, for anyone who believes toyota's going WFO on their own was caused by floormats, you really need to do some reading. When a manufacturer comes up with three BS excuses for one problem you really should stop believing what comes next. If they come up with brake-by-wire will you buy one?
Toyota paid dearly to sweep that one under the rug, and it paid off. They are still in business.
Posted By: gdonovan
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/15/15 09:51 PM
Quote:
"The GPS unit itself does not put any signal out so our GPS detector will not locate any passive gps trackers."
Passive GPS trackers to be effective you need access to the vehicle to download the data, you are pretty much boned at that point if someone is doing that.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/16/15 12:18 AM
GM's OnStar is a different case, it is totally remotely downloadable and as such is also interceptable. I know a guy that drinks, to much, and now has a Ram 1500 because his last DWI, in his Duramax, was thanks to OnStar calling the EMT's and law enforcement when he was in a single vehicle accident while drinking. I laughed my butt off when I heard about it, but he still blames OnStar for HIS drinking problem lol!
Posted By: Sxrxrnr
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/19/15 01:26 AM
Quote:Quote:
So how does this prevent the hydraulic brakes from functioning?
Or the key from shutting the engine off?
Or the gearshift lever being moved to neutral?
Driver error. Skid marks from parking brake? duh. I can leave you some a mile or two long if you like. Its for PARKING not stopping the car.
Agree that a proficient driver should be able to recover. That doesn't mean Toyota isn't without fault if the engine runs away without driver input, which is completely possible with stack overflow software issues. There is no way every one of those cars ran away with somebody's foot or floor mat stuck on the pedal.
Some 28 years after 60 minutes broadcast likely one of the most egregious displays of yellow journalism by host Ed Bradley(yea the same guy who almost destroyed the Apple industry in his scare piece on Alar and apples), I still remember this well as a neighbor at he time owned an Audi 5000.
I remember very well Bradley's handwringing over Audi's running thru the back garage wall and ending up in the swimming pool and in particular a lady reporting that she had suffered a broken ankle because she had pushed her brake pedal so hard and still unable to stop the car. All this with a 5 cylinder engine and likely German brakes of world class quality.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2007/05/in-defense-of-the-audi-5000/
This almost destroyed Audi's baby steps as it sought to find a place in the American marketplace.
As I viewed this episode, I said to myself,,,,this was an example of inept drivers starting their engines from cold, fast warmup idle would give excessive engine speed, the driver upon starting would jerk their gearshift from park without first placing their foot on the brake, the car would jump either forward or backward depending on the selected gear, hence the panicked inept driver would have no idea what to do and the rest makes 60 Minutes on Sunday night television.
Does anyone remember when the brake interlock (cannot shift from park or start car unless brake pedal depressed) became standard fair on all cars,,not that many years later.
Does anyone remember the psychosis on the runaway Prius's and the video presentation by Steve Wozniak,,,yea the same guy from Apple. He reportedly breathlessly of driving his Prius at,,,don't recall exact numbers,,,at 65 mph, when suddenly without warning the car accelerated to 90 mph. . As I recall,,not certain,, that as all of this drama was unfolding, he at the same time engaged in a blow by blow account with a news reporter. I am likely mixing several stories and tales together here. My point again, not floor mats, not computers its bad drivers who have not the wit to take the transmission out of gear or to shutdown the engine. Yes Charley they lurk everywhere among us on our freeways and byways. Yes often even Mr. Darwin was wrong,,,or perhaps always correct but just a bit off in timing.
I kid you not,,,,,even 60 minutes,,,oops forgot NBC on their segments of saddle fuel tanks blowing up,,,,could not make this stuff up.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-10/news/mn-1335_1_gm-pickup
Of particular interest this all seems to come from the same loon wing of the body politic.
Nothing personal Mr. Nader
Posted By: Uberpube
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/19/15 02:53 AM
Quote:
Yeah, so in other words whoever gets to play big brother (insurance company, law enforcement, or the vehicle manufacture) with your VIN, has access from HQ to retrieve CDR data.
No surprise.
A Friend bought a new '99 Duramax and in the first year he owned it, took it hunting. He was backing his hunting shack into their camp and heard a pop in the front-end. Broken CV shaft.
So, he presses onstar. Tells them he needs it out and to the dealer for warranty repair. After confirming some info with him, the Operator says "we can see here that you are not on a public road, therefore you have to tow it yourself and pay the dealer to fix it".
As a Man who would never own anything but a general motors product he stopped everything he was doing, got a flat-bed and literally parked the duramax on the doorstep of the nearest dealer. He cancelled his credit card and stopped payment on his lease. He went to a Ford dealership, made a deal on a Powerstroke and told general motors they would never see him again. He's a hot-head and had the whole thing wrapped up in about 2 days.
That was in late '99 and He still tells that story and proudly drives his Ford.
15 years ago this happened. Imagine what will be available to them 15 years from now.
So, this huge state of denial to honor warranty, pay insurance claims and proof of innocence has quietly taken a gigantic leap in big brothers' favor. As usual, follow the money.
Lastly, for anyone who believes toyota's going WFO on their own was caused by floormats, you really need to do some reading. When a manufacturer comes up with three BS excuses for one problem you really should stop believing what comes next. If they come up with brake-by-wire will you buy one?
Toyota paid dearly to sweep that one under the rug, and it paid off. They are still in business.
He must have had a really big time machine to get a duramax in 1999..
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/19/15 05:12 AM
Was looking through owners manual of wifes 2012 Charger and on the first or second page its says the car is equipped with an EDR, Event Data Recorder, that can be accessed from THE CAR if accident occurs and there is reason to investigate.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: SRT Hellcat wreck - 01/19/15 06:32 PM
Quote:
He must have had a really big time machine to get a duramax in 1999..
Thank-you!
It's the one with the squashed headlights (not the avalanche style) and whatever year they came out with that dark orange color. Maybe you know what year that is?
I should just say it was first-year duramax which is 2001 according to Wiki. It was the first one in this area, that's for sure.
*Edit* Same as this one:
Posted By: TC@HP2