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Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714165 01/10/15 07:23 PM 01/10/15 07:23 PM
Joined: May 2007 Posts: 553 Sac, CA, USA N ntstlgl1970 mopar
ntstlgl1970 mopar N Joined: May 2007 Posts: 553 Sac, CA, USA	I had an 09 SRT8 challenger, the ABS/ESC stuff can be pretty intrusive depending on how you drive. Turning all that stuff off and driving is a pretty eye opening experience - not like the "old" days. It would be really easy to wreck one of those cars without it - not even considering the 392 or hellcat....

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: ntstlgl1970] #1714166 01/10/15 08:35 PM 01/10/15 08:35 PM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,383 north of coder moparx "Butt Crack Bob"
moparx "Butt Crack Bob" Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 19,383 north of coder	anybody know if that car has been sold for salvage ? if so, what did it bring ?

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: ntstlgl1970] #1714167 01/11/15 09:52 AM 01/11/15 09:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: I had an 09 SRT8 challenger, the ABS/ESC stuff can be pretty intrusive depending on how you drive. Turning all that stuff off and driving is a pretty eye opening experience - not like the "old" days. It would be really easy to wreck one of those cars without it - not even considering the 392 or hellcat.... If I recall from an interview with the SRT team you really can't turn it off 100% it just scales back how intrusive it is. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: AndyF] #1714168 01/11/15 10:09 AM 01/11/15 10:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles... not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles...	Quote: My guess is that the insurance company has already taken a look at the black box data and they know exactly what the poor dude was up to. Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing. The accident happened on a public street, and the car was being driven by the owner. The accident is clearly his fault. The only reasons the insurance company would need black box data is if there were some dispute in liability, or if accident reconstruction was needed for some reason (lawsuit, injuries, question of product liability, etc...). The bottom line is that stupidity, recklessness, and lack of driving skill are all covered by your insurance policy. Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck. DBAP

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: not_a_charger] #1714169 01/11/15 12:34 PM 01/11/15 12:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing. For most states the insurance company can't access the data without the car owners permission. Courts have ruled the owner of the car also owns control of the data. Police can access the data if there is a fatality with a subpoena. Of course if the vehicle is in a body shop lot and someone has access to the vehicle and keys with the right equipment who is to stop them from plugging in and retrieving the data? BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: not_a_charger] #1714170 01/11/15 01:14 PM 01/11/15 01:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,164 Plymouth, MI Blusmbl master
Blusmbl master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,164 Plymouth, MI	Quote: The bottom line is that stupidity, recklessness, and lack of driving skill are all covered by your insurance policy. Yes!!!

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714171 01/11/15 03:44 PM 01/11/15 03:44 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles... not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles...	Quote: Quote: Insurance company doesn't care what he was doing. For most states the insurance company can't access the data without the car owners permission. Courts have ruled the owner of the car also owns control of the data. Police can access the data if there is a fatality with a subpoena. Of course if the vehicle is in a body shop lot and someone has access to the vehicle and keys with the right equipment who is to stop them from plugging in and retrieving the data? BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering. It can be obtained by suboena in other instances as well if there is a compelling reason to do so. It's rare that it's needed at all. The vehicle owner owns everything in the car...insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission. Lacking that, they can try a subpoena. Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck. DBAP

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: not_a_charger] #1714172 01/11/15 04:41 PM 01/11/15 04:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission. While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door. No one would be the wiser. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714173 01/11/15 05:17 PM 01/11/15 05:17 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,395 The Pale Blue Dot Skeptic master
Skeptic master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,395 The Pale Blue Dot	Quote: Quote: insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission. While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door. No one would be the wiser. Not likely 1)Body shops usually are not equipped with scan tools. They normally sublet having modules reflashed/reprogrammed. 2) Crash data isn't something you can pull up with a code reader, I doubt it's available at a normal dealer level access, but OE at minimum. 3) If the Insurance Co wanted the data they could get it, either via a subpoena, or access it after they total it without any marginally legal shenanigans.

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714174 01/11/15 07:11 PM 01/11/15 07:11 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,003 Salem Grizzly Moparts Proctologist
Grizzly Moparts Proctologist Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,003 Salem	Quote: BTW there is a company the sells OBD locking covers for diag port to prevent unwanted tampering. Is that where the data recorder is? I was under the impression that it is positioned elsewhere in the vehicle so that it can easily be removed and "read" by big brother. The case that comes to mind is from the late '90's and it was in regards to a Firebird/camaro that had the black-box hidden inside a door panel. The Owner was sueing someone for using the info against Him........ I agree with what Not-a-Charger is saying for the time being. But since our society keeps moving towards a "SOL, Buddy" model, eventually people can expect nothing out of an insurance company, kinda like "warranty" on a new vehicle. Mo' Farts Moderated by "tbagger".

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: Skeptic] #1714175 01/11/15 07:51 PM 01/11/15 07:51 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Not likely 1)Body shops usually are not equipped with scan tools. They normally sublet having modules reflashed/reprogrammed. I never stated the body shop would scan it, I was referring to the insurance adjuster. The body shop isn't going to stop them and the owner isn't there. Quote: 2) Crash data isn't something you can pull up with a code reader, I doubt it's available at a normal dealer level access, but OE at minimum. The equipment is available for sale if you have the coin. An average shop isn't going to have any need for it but an insurance company might invest in the equipment. Quote: 3) If the Insurance Co wanted the data they could get it, either via a subpoena, or access it after they total it without any marginally legal shenanigans. 1) Who is saying shenanigans? Could be as innocent as asking the body shop for access to a vehicle that is wrecked so an appraisal can be performed. Body shop isn't going to say boo. 2) A longtime friend of mine runs a body shop, I have witnessed some funky stuff from adjusters. Saw an adjuster once total a car after it needed a few more hundred bucks worth damage. I think wrecker backed into it by "accident" and got the number where it needed to be. oops. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: Grizzly] #1714176 01/11/15 08:02 PM 01/11/15 08:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Is that where the data recorder is? I was under the impression that it is positioned elsewhere in the vehicle so that it can easily be removed and "read" by big brother. Depends on the vehicle but they are either on vehicle network bus or directly integrated into the ECM. I had lots of training from Mopar on the various buses and protocols used but don't recall the subject ever coming up in training but its been a few years. I suspect on Chryslers its in the ECM or TIPM (if they still call it that) or the airbag module would be a logical place. I don't recall a separate module anywhere and it would be cheaper to integrate it into a module that is already there and has access to the data stream. I'm sure Chrysler can read the information sans vehicle and in a big case they might send the module in to be read. Not really sure on that point though as I don't recall any big cases off the top of my head that "black box" data was a pivotal piece of info. Aside from the Toyota cases that is which helped prove Toyota was not at fault for "unintended acceleration" "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: keyser soze] #1714177 01/11/15 09:20 PM 01/11/15 09:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 198 Hershey, PA 7 73MagDuster member
73MagDuster member 7 Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 198 Hershey, PA	I have 2 Crash Data Retreival (CDR) machines at work. That is the only way to read most Event Data Recorders "black boxes" in cars. The only reason to have a CDR is to do accident investigation. Almost nobody except police and independent reconstruction firms have one. The full kit is about $8k and software runs about $1200 a year. They are NOT mandated by the Feds. In 2013 the Feds made a minimum list of data a company had to store IF THEY CHOSE TO HAVE AN EDR. Suprisingly some high end vehicles like BMW and Benz only started putting these in cars recently. GM started in the mid 90s. Chrysler does have one of the more comprehensive data streams in theirs, including tire pressures and steering wheel angle. Most EDR data is stored in the Airbag control module. There are some Fords that also save info in the PCM. Last edited by 73MagDuster; 01/11/15 09:22 PM.

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714178 01/11/15 09:26 PM 01/11/15 09:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,395 The Pale Blue Dot Skeptic master
Skeptic master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 4,395 The Pale Blue Dot	I wrote "Not Likely"- Not Impossible I just dove down the rabbit hole and discovered that cars/light trucks can be accessed by the Bosch CDR tool, GM cars and trucks have the most coverage, back to 1994. Before vehicles built pre 9-2012 it's a crap shoot as far as how much data there is or how to get it. This is the latest release software and supported vehicles. Quote: Who is saying shenanigans? Could be as innocent as asking the body shop for access to a vehicle that is wrecked so an appraisal can be performed. There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best. I still call shenanigans. The data would be useless in a legal case without a subpoena. If the car is totaled, then in Ins Co owns the car and has every right to access the modules.

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: 73MagDuster] #1714179 01/11/15 09:41 PM 01/11/15 09:41 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,003 Salem Grizzly Moparts Proctologist
Grizzly Moparts Proctologist Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 6,003 Salem	73MagDuster: Where does your machine plug into: the OBD port, or directly to the EDR? Mo' Farts Moderated by "tbagger".

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: Skeptic] #1714180 01/11/15 10:04 PM 01/11/15 10:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: There is nothing innocent about it, unethical at best. It's the automotive trade- I have seen more unethical crap in 30 years most of it at the dealer level than you can shake a stick at. Someone backing a wrecker into a car for an adjuster to bump a claim would be the least trifling of offensive things I have witnessed. I'm glad I'm out now. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714181 01/11/15 11:03 PM 01/11/15 11:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles... not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles...	Quote: Quote: insurers can't access the black box, can't pull a fluid sample from any of the vehicle systems, etc...without the owner's permission. While this is true, like I said if someone has access to the car and keys at the body shop who is to stop them? Not the body shop owner who wants to keep that sweet, sweet insurance job money flowing in the door. No one would be the wiser. The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner. Plus, no insurance company is going to waste money on a ridiculously expensive piece of equipment that their appraiser is unlikely to ever need or utilize. THEY DON'T CARE if you were drunk, speeding, etc...all of that is covered by your insurance. It doesn't get the insurance company off the hook at all. Even if the insurer did as you suggest, they wouldn't be able to use the info anyway, since it would've been obtained illegally. Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck. DBAP

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: 73MagDuster] #1714182 01/11/15 11:05 PM 01/11/15 11:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles... not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator
not_a_charger Mr. Big Shot Moparts Moderator Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 19,888 Puttin' on the foil in Charles...	Quote: I have 2 Crash Data Retreival (CDR) machines at work. That is the only way to read most Event Data Recorders "black boxes" in cars. The only reason to have a CDR is to do accident investigation. Almost nobody except police and independent reconstruction firms have one. The full kit is about $8k and software runs about $1200 a year. ^ pay attention to this guy. He's correct. Earning every penny of that moderator paycheck. DBAP

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: not_a_charger] #1714183 01/11/15 11:41 PM 01/11/15 11:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: The data you're referring to isn't accessible with the typical hand-held scanner. I have already pointed this out, if you have the coin you can buy the proper unit for retrieving the data. Just so were clear, we both understand a normal scan tool will not obtain the data. If you wish to pop $8000 or so you can get the tool that does. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: SRT Hellcat wreck [Re: gdonovan] #1714184 01/11/15 11:53 PM 01/11/15 11:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia J jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
jcc If you can't dazzle em with diamonds.. J Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 22,696 Bitopia	Does this $8K? tool delete the info also? Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.

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