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B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
#1688784
10/21/14 11:23 PM
10/21/14 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Am dealing with an steering box issue on our 70 Challenger.
My question is: Are or should all PS steering boxes be fully interchangeable and identical between E Body and B Body K members.
I am trying to figure out why a Borgeson box that has been installed on the Challenger cannot be brought into proper 'toe' alignment without the need for one tie rod end to be 9/16 inch longer than the opposite one and even then the steering box shaft must be clocked some 60 degrees off top center in order that pitman arm ball joint will drop into drag link hole when toe is correct.
I am suspecting any of the following in order of importance.
1. Steering box not clocked properly on K member, either because of out of spec K member,,,,which I doubt or out of spec mounting ears on steering box.
2. Pitman splines on steering box out of spec.
3. Pitman splines on pitman arm out of spec. Just Suspensions arm.
4. Pitman arm itself is not to spec on its angle/shape from steering box to drag link.
All was well with stock box modified to Firm Feel specs. Additionally steering shaft that once was a straight shot into coupler, now requires a sharp angle in order to be inserted into it.
Been dealing with this some 9 months. Car drives well with some caveats,,,steering box not on top center, can turn car over 2 full revolutions of steering wheel one direction, less than 1 3/4 turns other, and a tendency to experience bump steer,,,not a severe issue the way I normally drive
Currently gathering information hoping to find the cause and solution for what the car is experiencing.
Have considered shimming the box, grinding off guide spline in pitman and cold bending pitman. None particularly attractive options.
I posted this in another thread that deals with a multitude of steering box issues, but think that this particular issue kind of gets lost there, hence a new post
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 10/21/14 11:30 PM.
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: tahoechallenge]
#1688786
10/21/14 11:57 PM
10/21/14 11:57 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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More than likely its another out of square Borgeson steering box.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1688788
10/22/14 02:58 PM
10/22/14 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Sxrxrnr,
Could you look on the front center of your K-member and record the stampings numbers found there.
That will give the part number for that K-member. And number of the round coin if welded to the K-member?
Not all B and E body K-members are completely 110% identical. They will interchange, but there will be some differences in the steering box pad.
For instance:
Last edited by autoxcuda; 10/22/14 02:59 PM.
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1688789
10/22/14 03:05 PM
10/22/14 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
|
Quote:
Am dealing with an steering box issue on our 70 Challenger.
My question is: Are or should all PS steering boxes be fully interchangeable and identical between E Body and B Body K members.
I am trying to figure out why a Borgeson box that has been installed on the Challenger cannot be brought into proper 'toe' alignment without the need for one tie rod end to be 9/16 inch longer than the opposite one and even then the steering box shaft must be clocked some 60 degrees off top center in order that pitman arm ball joint will drop into drag link hole when toe is correct.
I am suspecting any of the following in order of importance.
1. Steering box not clocked properly on K member, either because of out of spec K member,,,,which I doubt or out of spec mounting ears on steering box.
2. Pitman splines on steering box out of spec.
3. Pitman splines on pitman arm out of spec. Just Suspensions arm.
4. Pitman arm itself is not to spec on its angle/shape from steering box to drag link.
All was well with stock box modified to Firm Feel specs. Additionally steering shaft that once was a straight shot into coupler, now requires a sharp angle in order to be inserted into it.
Been dealing with this some 9 months. Car drives well with some caveats,,,steering box not on top center, can turn car over 2 full revolutions of steering wheel one direction, less than 1 3/4 turns other, and a tendency to experience bump steer,,,not a severe issue the way I normally drive
Currently gathering information hoping to find the cause and solution for what the car is experiencing.
Have considered shimming the box, grinding off guide spline in pitman and cold bending pitman. None particularly attractive options.
I posted this in another thread that deals with a multitude of steering box issues, but think that this particular issue kind of gets lost there, hence a new post
Do you have a stock ratio pitman or the longer Fast Ratio pitman on it?
Do you have your old pitman to compare the Just Suspension pitman to? Can you borrow a used pitman from someone else to compare to?
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1688791
10/22/14 05:01 PM
10/22/14 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 321
Massachusetts
Sneke_Eyez
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 321
Massachusetts
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Quote:
This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.
Wow, that is not confidence inspiring at all.
Guess I am firmly sold on a Firm Feel now.
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1688793
10/22/14 05:13 PM
10/22/14 05:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.
is he running another aftermarket pitman arm? Just curious, seems the thread engagement issues coincided with aftermarket arms IIRC.
Well they are all aftermarket. You mean certain brands?
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1688794
10/22/14 05:34 PM
10/22/14 05:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
This isn't a big mystery, we solved it a few months back. The boxes are tweaked. If you swapped in a factory box for reference, you'd find everything lines up perfectly and all is right in the world. We had to shim the drivers-side mounting tab with 2 williams washers to get it right. On that note as well, the owner of the car called us after a few hundred miles of driving and the pitman arm nut had completely backed off and fell off the car. He purchased and new nut, re-torqued it to the required torque and staked it to ensure the nut wouldn't fall off. Well wouldn't you know it, the nut has backed off/gotten loose 2 more times as the pitman arm has worked itself in and loose then traveled UP the shaft on the box. Every time he tightens it, the pitman arm seats higher and he gets more thread engagement.
Good Stuff.
is he running another aftermarket pitman arm? Just curious, seems the thread engagement issues coincided with aftermarket arms IIRC.
I've put on the stock arm and moog arm, same problem
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: dangina]
#1688795
10/22/14 05:37 PM
10/22/14 05:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Yes we did cover that, the arm loosening is a huge issue. It the arm or the shaft causing it ?
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1688798
10/22/14 07:03 PM
10/22/14 07:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Seems all the small shaft boxes have good spline and thread engagement but the large spline have most all had issues. Could it be that the large spline have a different amount of taper from the factory and Borgeson is not compensating or aware of this? Just grabbing at straws here.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1688799
10/23/14 12:00 AM
10/23/14 12:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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Had a tough day today. I had removed original Borgeson a couple of days ago,,,after removing battery, it's tray, MSD box etc. and as with a Chinese puzzle managed to wiggle it out. Had been installed while K member was out of car.
Noted when removing mounting bolts that the came out very hard, as though cross threaded. Sure enough when I went to check out the original 12 point bolts, even without box in the way, they would go in very hard. Knew this was bad, spent a couple hours doing thread chasing and buying some grade 8 6 point bolts. Finally got this all sorted out and mounted box and pitman arm.
No difference, flat spot on input shaft still at 11 o'clock, never moved tie rod ends(remember left side 1/2 inch longer than right). Front wheels had not been moved.
So did some shim checking,,,,,looks as though will require 5/16 shims on engine side 2 bolts,,,,this will bring box to top center with flat spot at 9 o'clock.
Tie rod ends I will worry about later. I am exhausted and frustrated. These boxes are definitely clock wrong on their mounting ears.
More tomorrow after I get some shims,,,just have box pried out on engine side with pry bars.
Watching series now and having a bite to eat.
Thanks everyone for tips and moral support.
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1688801
10/23/14 04:56 AM
10/23/14 04:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
|
Quote:
...
I have looked without success for a standard ratio pitman without 'Judas Spline' or master spline as commonly called. Does anyone know of one.
Someone PM'd me about that in your situation. And there are only 36 splines. Then you do the math.
So he said:
"...You mentioned eliminating the master spline so the pitman can be clocked where you need it…. Well there are 36 splines so each step is 10 degrees so assuming the pitman arm is 8” each tooth moves the outboard end 1.4” that’s a pretty big adjustment… "
Quote:
Can anyone explain what so called 'bump steer' impact that non equal length tie rod ends might cause me if I were not to expend effort to bring them to same length. Also would this cause different turning radius's left or right, or is this purely a function of an off top center steering box. Steering geometry has always been a bit of mystery.
You mentioned on the other thread it was about 1/2" off center. Yes that will change some bumpsteer. I really don't think it will be enough to notice. When the factory installed "T/A fast ratio steering" with the longer pitman arm only, that also changed bumpsteer. Have you heard anyone complain about those cars having bumpsteer?
Moving the inner tie rod point up and down has a much great effect on bumpsteer than moving the point left and right.
For as far as you got into this adding some shims to help certainly isn't a ton of effort since everything taken apart and tools are ready.
Your factory setup does not have perfect bumpsteer. Even when you adjust for bumpsteer with an accurate dial indicator bumpsteer gauge, you usually never get a 0.000" toe steer change. And many time when you improve compression or extension, the other condition changes for the worse.
This is a bumpsteer check on my Barracuda with a Longacre bumpsteer gauge:
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Re: B body and E body K member steering box mounting.
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1688802
10/23/14 05:26 AM
10/23/14 05:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
|
Quote:
Had a tough day today. I had removed original Borgeson a couple of days ago,,,after removing battery, it's tray, MSD box etc. and as with a Chinese puzzle managed to wiggle it out. Had been installed while K member was out of car.
Noted when removing mounting bolts that the came out very hard, as though cross threaded. Sure enough when I went to check out the original 12 point bolts, even without box in the way, they would go in very hard. Knew this was bad, spent a couple hours doing thread chasing and buying some grade 8 6 point bolts. Finally got this all sorted out and mounted box and pitman arm.
No difference, flat spot on input shaft still at 11 o'clock, never moved tie rod ends(remember left side 1/2 inch longer than right). Front wheels had not been moved.
So did some shim checking,,,,,looks as though will require 5/16 shims on engine side 2 bolts,,,,this will bring box to top center with flat spot at 9 o'clock.
Tie rod ends I will worry about later. I am exhausted and frustrated. These boxes are definitely clock wrong on their mounting ears.
More tomorrow after I get some shims,,,just have box pried out on engine side with pry bars.
Watching series now and having a bite to eat.
Thanks everyone for tips and moral support.
the flat spot on input shaft is not at 9 o'clock when pitman is centered and steering wheel is centered on my car either. It is at 11ish. I asked Peter about this back when I installed mine and he said just center steering wheel where I want it and lock it down.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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