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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662759
08/25/14 06:38 PM
08/25/14 06:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
It is possible "streetable" has different definition to me. A lot of people like a choppy idle on their street cars. I did explain to engine builder the use of the car, weight, rear gear, trans, tire size, etc. In their defense, it does have enough vacuum to run power brakes. The builder was Muscle Motors, who came very recommended on this forum when I was asking around. The dyno run sheet shows total timing of 36. I don't think it has initial timing. My mechanic did the install, and I have as much confidence in him and his abilities as any mechanic. Super good. That doesn't mean the timing or something else doesn't need to be tweaked to, or adding something like an X pipe as suggested. I hadn't thought of that. I want to have some info written down when I talked to him so I don't waste any of his time. I will see what he has to say. Today I checked the firing order just to be sure. there wasn't a loose wire or crossed wires (I doubted it but easy to check). I figured it runs too good to have that issue, but it idles like it might have. Thx.
What camshaft is in this thing?
What distributor?
There is a very good chance that 36 is fine for total, but if that distributor has 24+ of mechanical advance built in it, it's going to run like junk at idle and off idle. This is the "WORK" part of the program.
Unfortunately, sometimes parts get tossed at engines with no desire to get them sorted out properly. Dynos shops and most operators run for one thing in general, max HP/TQ. They don't usually worry about idle quality.
Put a timing light on it and see where you are.
A very easy test, find where it's set now. Warm it up, loosen the dist clamp and give a little twist CCW to the housing, did it pick up RPM? If so it wants the timing and the distributor mechanical advance will need adjusting. If you aren't going to fix it right then, reset it to where it was before the test and know that the initial timing setting is not correct for your engine.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: ademon]
#1662760
08/25/14 07:17 PM
08/25/14 07:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
master
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master
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bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Rhodes lifters,
X2  work great for me. no "lump-a-lump"!
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: dogdays]
#1662763
08/25/14 08:32 PM
08/25/14 08:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
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master
Joined: Apr 2010
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bethlehem pa
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Quote:
Rhoads.
I believe he said it was a roller cam.
not seeing where that was said. 
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1662764
08/25/14 09:48 PM
08/25/14 09:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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His second or third post, he said, "It is a brand new internally balanced engine, and I sprung for the roller cam upgrade and other goodies, so I really can't afford nor want to start unbolting and replacing parts."
All this leads me to believe that it's a Muscle Motors crate engine. It could be a hydraulic roller, even.
MM's website isn't very specific about the camshafts.
The fact that it idles with quite a bit of vacuum tells me that it's probably not too big and the rest of you are probably on the right track with suggestions about timing, or else the carb is out of adjustment, something like that.
I'd still like to know what the cam is, though.
R.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: dogdays]
#1662765
08/25/14 10:26 PM
08/25/14 10:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
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Quote:
His second or third post, he said, "It is a brand new internally balanced engine, and I sprung for the roller cam upgrade and other goodies, so I really can't afford nor want to start unbolting and replacing parts."
All this leads me to believe that it's a Muscle Motors crate engine. It could be a hydraulic roller, even.
MM's website isn't very specific about the camshafts.
The fact that it idles with quite a bit of vacuum tells me that it's probably not too big and the rest of you are probably on the right track with suggestions about timing, or else the carb is out of adjustment, something like that.
I'd still like to know what the cam is, though.
R.
re-read it again and you're right, also right about it probably being hydraulic roller and I agree, probably timing or carb tweek. 
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: mikemee1331]
#1662766
08/25/14 11:29 PM
08/25/14 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
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Central Florida
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I am so grateful for all the information, and I am listening. Yes, turning the idle up a bit did help but still choppy/shaky.
Yes, it is a hydraulic roller cam upgrade. I did ask for the cam specifics when first shopping, and was told their builds are proprietorial. I think this engine is called their Killer Street Krate, with the hyd/roller cam and windage tray upgrade.
I am going to do my best to get specifics on the cam. I am hearing what you are saying, and that will be a help in making a decision on what to try. Then I will call install mechanic and see when I can go by and talk to him about all the timing and carb settings. I feel like the carb is set right, but if anything, maybe a little lean by the smell of the exhaust. I know that isn't exactly scientific. Carb was set on dyno. Really everything in this engine is new and designed to work together, except the MP electronic ignition (distributor too) with orange box. I am very strongly considering replacing that, then having mechanic work on timing and possible carb mixture. Thanks again to all.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662768
08/26/14 07:01 AM
08/26/14 07:01 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
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Northern Calyfornua
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Several things of some importance I have not seen, or am I missing them.
1. Auto or manual transmission?
2. Current idle speed?
3. Current vacuum reading at idle?
4. Does car have AC
5. Any other conditions causing rough idle,,,carb issue(running rich or lean)spark plug/wire misfiring, Vacuum leaks, etc.
6. Current timing initial advance?
7. Solid or hydraulic lifters,,,I got the roller part.
8. What is meant by rough idle,,,there are different types. Hurky/jerky, lopping like big rpm swings or sense that engine is searching or wants to die,,,etc.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: NachoRT74]
#1662769
08/26/14 12:20 PM
08/26/14 12:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
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Well, Nacho, I did say, " You may be able to advance the cam, which closes the intake valve sooner, which can cut down somewhat on the choppy idle." a while ago on the page.
This poor guy spent a lot of money on this engine and expected it to run right out of the box. That's what a crate engine from a specialty shop is supposed to do. Muscle Motors' reluctance to give the specs on their camshaft is understandable if they spent money to develop it, but now that a customer is having trouble with it, they should pitch in and help.
OP, have you talked to MM about your situation?
R.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1662770
08/26/14 03:00 PM
08/26/14 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
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Central Florida
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Quote:
Several things of some importance I have not seen, or am I missing them.
1. Auto or manual transmission?
2. Current idle speed?
3. Current vacuum reading at idle?
4. Does car have AC
5. Any other conditions causing rough idle,,,carb issue(running rich or lean)spark plug/wire misfiring, Vacuum leaks, etc.
6. Current timing initial advance?
7. Solid or hydraulic lifters,,,I got the roller part.
8. What is meant by rough idle,,,there are different types. Hurky/jerky, lopping like big rpm swings or sense that engine is searching or wants to die,,,etc.
Trans is an HD 727. I can't tell you what the vacuum is at idle or intial timing. As mentioned, I have to get with install mechanic soon and am taking notes on what to discuss with him as to not waste any of his time. NO a/c. No vacuum leaks. No misfires. New plugs and 8mm wires. Hydraulic lifters. I would call it choppy idle more than rough. No doesn't want to stall. RPM swings I guess is a good discription, along with shaking.
I am sure it's a big cam. Just didn't know if there were tricks to lessen the signs of such.
Yes, I spent big money. Looking at 10 grand right now. It's complete from carb ($700 Quick Fuel) to oil pan (Milodon 8qt), with all the best parts (ARP, Felpro, etc), Kb Hyp. pistons, scat parts (heard Eagle is having issues, braided fuel line, windage tray/roller setup upgrade, RPM air gap intake, and other good stuff like filter relocation, BM Super Engine Oil Cooler all with braided 10AN steel hose. Had it all painted black for stealthy-ness. Also paid an additional $700 for Dyno Test and Tune so that I wouldn't (presumably) have to wonder where to have mechanic set everything from carb to timing.
I WILL get cam specs today. I am so grateful for the outpouring of help.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662771
08/26/14 04:07 PM
08/26/14 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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OP
Stud Muffin
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Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
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Ok, got it. Cam is a Comp Cam Hydraulic Roller with;
Lift .541 intake .537 exhaust
Duration .230 intake .236 exhaust
Compression is 10.1
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662772
08/26/14 04:53 PM
08/26/14 04:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Ok, got it. Cam is a Comp Cam Hydraulic Roller with;
Lift .541 intake .537 exhaust
Duration .230 intake .236 exhaust
Compression is 10.1
Proprietary??? That's a XR280HR
They may have cut it on a LSA tigher than the shelf 110* to make it "custom".
That thing shouldn't idle real choppy.
Look at the initial timing FIRST! Use a vacuum gauge or just turn the housing CCW and see if it picks up RPM. You'll likely need to work on the mechanical advance to clean it up. My guess, 18-22 initial timing and 14-18 in the mechanical advance.
It should idle easily at 800-850rpm, with very little chop to it. Shouldn't smell like a fuel truck out the tailpipes either.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662774
08/26/14 07:36 PM
08/26/14 07:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 4,154
bethlehem pa
mikemee1331
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master
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bethlehem pa
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Quote:
What ignition system would you recommend if I decide to spend just a little more and replace the MP orange box/distributor/ballast resistor system i have now? MSD?
just suggestion but take of one problem at a time. what you have should work just fine to get it running good. start a different thread on the ignition upgrade. just my  
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: RobX4406]
#1662776
08/26/14 09:27 PM
08/26/14 09:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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We might be getting somewhere here. It's a brand-new engine. My assumption is that the distributor is the newest MP (mallory) unit that E-berg and others have said has a really hard time keeping timing stable at idle. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post8230660Go back and read some of the posts about this, or email E-berg and ask him directly, he sometimes answers posts. The camshaft at 230 intake duration is not that big, it is ground 4 degrees advanced, so intake centerline is 106 on a 110 LSA. Check the ignition first. There's nothing wrong with the MP electronics, but the distributor thing might be the culprit. That'd be the one with the bronze colored shaft end (where the rotor goes.) If so, swapping on any other distributor, even one out of a 1974 Dart, should make a real difference. Then you would indeed buy and put in an MSD electronic distribut or Firecore, you can hook it to the MP box or use the MSD-6 or whatever. For example: https://www.customwiresets.com/product.php?productid=16293&cat=252&page=1 R.
Last edited by dogdays; 08/26/14 09:45 PM.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: dogdays]
#1662777
08/26/14 09:48 PM
08/26/14 09:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
larrymopar360
OP
Stud Muffin
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Stud Muffin
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Posts: 15,840
Central Florida
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I am so glad to have this information! The distributor in it came with the kit and I bought the kit probably 3 years ago now. I will look at the color of the shaft as soon as I get home later tonight. What would I do without this forum???!!! Such a wealth of knowledge here.
Eherenberg has answered some questions for me, so I may shoot him an email and a couple dollars for his "divorce fund" I think he calls it. First I will check the color of the distributor shaft.
Last edited by larrymopar360; 08/26/14 09:55 PM.
Facts are stubborn things.
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Re: Possible to lessen choppy idle due to cam?
[Re: larrymopar360]
#1662778
08/26/14 11:24 PM
08/26/14 11:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
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master
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las vegas
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MP switched to the Mallory based Distributor in the late 90s or early 2000s..I have a MP distributor with a 2001 date on it..and it is a Mallory...Hard to believe anything bought new in the last couple of years would not be a Mallory unit.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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