Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi

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Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi #1653107
07/30/14 04:44 PM 07/30/14 04:44 PM

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx

AlexP

OP
I Live Here

AlexP

OP
I Live Here

Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx

Trying to see what the world of moparts thinks about the following. Friend is doing a major revamp of his 70 Charger 500 clone. It's got a low compression 440 in unknown condition that we need to go through before it can be a very reliable driver.

440 Pro's and con's:

I'd like to build a copy of AndyF's 470ci B motor for his car. 3.900 crank, Eddy heads, Small Solid cam, Performer RPM intake and an Eddy 800 Thunder Series. I'd like to see about 450rwhp with his HP manifolds. He wants to use the car to corner carve around the Texas hill country. Just a weekend driver that he could hop in and knock off a few hundred miles in.

Pros:

It's already a bit block car. Ease of install.
We can reuse his existing HP manifolds
Doesn't need a whole lot of power out of it.
Looks like it should be there.
No need for EFI.(but it would be nice)
Can use all current accessories and fan.

Cons:

No EFI.
Limited by the cylinder head (Eddy Performer RPM or E-street)
Hydraulic or Solid cam (are they still wiping lobes?)
Will take some work to get his AC to work.

The other option is a box stock 6.4 Hemi.

Just a factory crate motor with TTI headers and a Milodon pan.

Pros:

Instant fire up and run
470hp with great torque out of the box.
Comes with a limited warranty
Will get better mileage.
Will live better with the EFI controling the AC.
Could be funded partly by the sale of old parts. Complete 440 and 727...

Cons:
EFI and swap accessories are $$$
Won't look as "appropriate"
Will require fuel system upgrades.

My Build thread: Let the hemi swap begin!

1968 wanna be pro touring whatchamacallit with some fancy stuff and a new roof skin.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653108 07/30/14 05:39 PM 07/30/14 05:39 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx Uhcoog1 super stock
Uhcoog1 super stock Joined: May 2005 Posts: 723 Houston Tx	Quote: Trying to see what the world of moparts thinks about the following. Friend is doing a major revamp of his 70 Charger 500 clone. It's got a low compression 440 in unknown condition that we need to go through before it can be a very reliable driver. 440 Pro's and con's: I'd like to build a copy of AndyF's 470ci B motor for his car. 3.900 crank, Eddy heads, Small Solid cam, Performer RPM intake and an Eddy 800 Thunder Series. I'd like to see about 450rwhp with his HP manifolds. He wants to use the car to corner carve around the Texas hill country. Just a weekend driver that he could hop in and knock off a few hundred miles in. Pros: It's already a bit block car. Ease of install. We can reuse his existing HP manifolds Doesn't need a whole lot of power out of it. Looks like it should be there. No need for EFI.(but it would be nice) Can use all current accessories and fan. Cons: No EFI. Limited by the cylinder head (Eddy Performer RPM or E-street) Hydraulic or Solid cam (are they still wiping lobes?) Will take some work to get his AC to work. The other option is a box stock 6.4 Hemi. Just a factory crate motor with TTI headers and a Milodon pan. Pros: Instant fire up and run 470hp with great torque out of the box. Comes with a limited warranty Will get better mileage. Will live better with the EFI controling the AC. Could be funded partly by the sale of old parts. Complete 440 and 727... Cons: EFI and swap accessories are $$$ Won't look as "appropriate" Will require fuel system upgrades. I vote for a 470"! -'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar -'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: Uhcoog1] #1653109 07/30/14 05:46 PM 07/30/14 05:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,791 Hamilton, Ontario Canada Magnum master
Magnum master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,791 Hamilton, Ontario Canada	Corner carver. No poll required because weight is the enemy. 6.4L 69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653110 07/30/14 07:00 PM 07/30/14 07:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets Senior Management
feets Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	As much as I like a big engine I went with the 6.4 hemi. You can do a LOT more with less work in the engine. The architecture of the heads is far more capable than the old big wedge. It's also a significantly lighter engine which is what you want on a car built for handling. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: feets] #1653111 07/30/14 07:08 PM 07/30/14 07:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI J Jerry master
Jerry master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI	budget wise you'd be better off with the 440. forget stroking it, reuse the stock crank, get some better rods and pistons. edelbrock heads, use the MP528 cam and you'll have all the torque you want in the corners. that will save enough money to go with efi and getting the ac fixed. especially if you want to keep the stock exhaust manifolds. you can do a lot with the engine as is. maybe even step up to a custom ground cam for better performance, but personally I like the MP528. its got a wide flat torque curve and acts like a stocker in a 440. I'm running a the MP557 in my engine now, a little lumpier, but very tolerable. doesn't have the vacuum the MP528 does. also get as many aluminum parts onto the front of the engine as you can. water pump and housing, intake, heads it will get you close to the 6.4L hemi Superior Design Concepts 2574 Elliott Dr Troy MI 48083 jerry@sdconcepts.com www.sdconcepts.com Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts www.bcrproducts.com

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: Jerry] #1653112 07/30/14 07:19 PM 07/30/14 07:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 10,645 Houston, Tx A AlexP OP I Live Here
AlexP OP I Live Here A Joined: Sep 2003 Posts: 10,645 Houston, Tx	We will build the new motor on the side and swap accessories at the time of install. Nothing off the longblock will be reused. That's why I'd rather gain some stroke while were at it. I'm leaning towards a 400 block. My Build thread: Let the hemi swap begin! 1968 wanna be pro touring whatchamacallit with some fancy stuff and a new roof skin.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653113 07/30/14 07:35 PM 07/30/14 07:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	The new Hemi is the way to go, it's a lot lighter than even an aluminum head B/RB. It's also smaller, and can be put back farther in the chassis because of its size. The kind of money you are talking about is substantial either way. R.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: dogdays] #1653114 07/30/14 09:26 PM 07/30/14 09:26 PM
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,142 Central NC gch master
gch master Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,142 Central NC	If you have the funds then the 6.4 is great and with some boost could be nasty. I don't have funds so I would do a stroker and if you want torque and are going to do a crank anyway then might as well do a 493/505.Go with alum heads.intake/water pump and housing and switch to a late model sanden compressor for the a/c. Next question is what gearing and trans??Lots more money for the 6.4 swap but the best of both worlds. With a BB stroker you don't need deep gears or high stall converter so a lot less money spent on the drive train.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: gch] #1653115 07/30/14 09:47 PM 07/30/14 09:47 PM
Joined: May 2005 Posts: 4,727 Florida BDW master
BDW master Joined: May 2005 Posts: 4,727 Florida	If he' going to drive the car, it doesn't even seem like a fair comparison. Why in the world would you not put a modern motor in it? New Hemi is a no-brainer

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653116 07/30/14 11:35 PM 07/30/14 11:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 699 Cooperstown, NY jrlegacy23 mopar
jrlegacy23 mopar Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 699 Cooperstown, NY	Hellcat motor!!!!!! [color:"#00FF00"]68 Fastback Barracuda with some stuff[/color]

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: jrlegacy23] #1653117 07/31/14 12:39 AM 07/31/14 12:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	The BB stroker and Hemi will act different in the car. The BB will have "effortless" mid range torque and the Hemi will like/need RPM. Rear gearing would need adjusted accordingly and the Hemi would be happier with more gears (4 speed auto or 5 speed manual or better) vs the RB. An RB built with aluminum heads and WP won't be that much heavier than the Hemi. With suspension mods and battery in trunk, balance and handling can be pretty good with the RB. It comes down to what you like. If you do choose the RB, suggest you go for the 4.15 stroke option (493" or what ever). There is no real durability or cost penalty vs a 470 and more torque. It should work well with mildly worked Ed heads (minimum) and a moderate cam. For reference, I run a 496" lowdeck in a '70 E with Ed heads/aluminum WP and battery in trunk. 3.23 rear, 25.x" tires and 5 speed. With beefed suspension, it handles the twisties quite well and I enjoy the mid range torque.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: ahy] #1653118 07/31/14 02:03 AM 07/31/14 02:03 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	I think you know what my choice would be. To me that Charger just looks right with the bigblock 440/stroker in it. The 6.4 is a great eng but it just dont look right in that Charger to me. My 493 is very streetable as I drive it all the time on the street and pushes my 63 into the 10's but I do use headers. Honestly though he has to do what he wants as it is his car. Ron

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: 383man] #1653119 07/31/14 02:21 AM 07/31/14 02:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 795 Glendale Az D Darryls-Demon super stock
Darryls-Demon super stock D Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 795 Glendale Az	470 low deck with Indy SR heads.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: Darryls-Demon] #1653120 07/31/14 03:21 AM 07/31/14 03:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,976 Chilliwack B.C. Canada R RUNCHARGER I Live Here
RUNCHARGER I Live Here R Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,976 Chilliwack B.C. Canada	Injected big block with aluminum heads and WP. Everything is a bolt in and 500 inchs of torque will move that heavy Charger. Sheldon

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653121 07/31/14 06:25 AM 07/31/14 06:25 AM
Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado 451Mopar master
451Mopar master Joined: May 2008 Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado	Hard decision, I have done the stroker big block with EFI, overdrive trans, aftermarket accessory drive, and it is alot of work, and can get expensive if using the expensive stuff. There is no way I could have done it if I had to pay labor for someone else to do the work. Early this year I picked up a 6.1L Hemi with the NAG transmission for another project. So far this looks like it may be less expensive (and easier), even if I get the Altercation K-Member which makes installing a new Hemi easier than trying to fit it around the stock K-member? For me the fuel tank / EFI fuel pump was the biggest issue. Currently I am using a stock style reproduction tank with a sump and external EFI pump (The pump that came in the EFI kit.) It works fine, and is quiet, but I don't like the way it looks. I have been thinking of making a custom stainless fuel tank that is a bit deeper than stock, with baffles, internal fuel pump, and fuel cell foam to reduce the fuel sloshing around. Having 100 lbs of fuel sloshing side-to-side is not good for handling

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: Jerry] #1653122 07/31/14 10:13 AM 07/31/14 10:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant mopar
Steve Bryant mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	On my Cuda, I went with a 440 since it was an option on the car plus for the 440 are very, very easy to find. Mopar continued to make 440s even until the late-seventies for their vans and trucks. They were also one of the most popular blocks for motor-homes. This means if you need parts they are usually cheap and readily available. I bought my 6-Pack/forged crank 440 block for $600 and the engine shop had few problems getting it knocked back into shape. The sky is the limit with these engines with the right heads, exhaust, fuel system, etc. Want to hook up electronic ignition and EFI? No problem.

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653123 07/31/14 10:59 AM 07/31/14 10:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck Not enough dumb comments...yet Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 24,562 Brookeville, Md	440 on a budget 6.4 if you have the funds. As you know it's a little more involved than just an engine swap. With modern cam grinds you can have a very street freindly BB. Top it w/ a six pack if you want max MPGs. I get 15 to and from the track. That's w/ an auto and 3.91's and why do you need to "clone" a 70 500? Does he just want the stripe? Mine is an XH car (came w/ no tail panel and unpadded door uppers and no pockets on the door panels) [IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG] Coming soon!!!!

Re: Poll: 446"-470" B/RB or stock 6.4 Hemi [Re: AlexP] #1653124 07/31/14 07:59 PM 07/31/14 07:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 4,679 Wichita G GY3 master
GY3 master G Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 4,679 Wichita	I have a mild 440 and have driven friends SRT8 6.1's. (Yeah, I know, not a 6.4) Totally different animals! Personally? I like the brutal torque of a mildly modified 440/500. If you're doing a B or RB go with the biggest stroke you can (500+) and Indy EZ heads. You will have more power than you can use in a very mild package. To me, anything over 550 HP on the street is silly anyway. Ron's combination is perfect for a street/strip car IMO! Oh yeah, Ive used the solid .528 cam and absolutely loved it in a 440 urged '71 Cuda.

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