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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: andy3965]
#1652881
08/07/14 04:54 PM
08/07/14 04:54 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
MRMOPAR622
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,008
Sweet Home Alabama
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Being a Bracket Racer like you while I may not can answer your question as good as Monte,but I might can answer it better in Bracket Racing terms. When you build a NOS engine like Monte says you use less camshaft & CR and therefore it makes less Horse-Power than an all out NA engine,but you can Safely Spray more NOS to it.Which ends up making more hp on NOS than the NA built engine will make on NOS! PS the question of price on them two engines was an unfair question,I already knew the answer! 
Last edited by MRMOPAR622; 08/07/14 04:55 PM.
"To Be The Man'You Have Got To Beat The Man"
"T/D and Pro-Bracket Racer"
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#1652886
08/07/14 11:42 PM
08/07/14 11:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
So do tell. How much Horsepower does it take to get a it two weeks ago. Predator headed TS car belonging to a friend of mine. It was built with the intention of spraying said motor with a 500 hit eventually. Just dont take that out here to get in. While I agree that is not 3 stages and 1000+ the motor seems to run fairly well for a Predator. He did hit it with a 150 shot, added the required 150lbs(2450 min) and went 6.96. He had the motor built for the larger hit in case he wanted to travel to the Midwest to race. He prefers to be at the top side of the ladder and it would likely take that much to do it.
Having said that believe me I understand the limitations. Bore is HP, period!! I am in the middle of my Predator build now and will be happy to see 1200 anything. We are already making plans to change a lot of stuff in it next time. But being anew aluminum block we just want to get some data and see how it works before we make any changes.
It is REALLY hard to quantify the small tire stuff for sure. Some folks are flat out better at getting that power down to the ground than others. Most all are killing a lot of power down low and applying it later down track. That will have an affect on ultimate ET's and speed. The sooner you pour all you have at it the quicker and faster you you will be. If you are struggling to get it downtrack makes sense to put in what you can to get it down the track. Just saying when it comes to dyno numbers on small tire cars going this fast getting it to the ground is the most important factor IMO.
This is all true Al, but mph for a given car weight, does not lie as to what it takes power wise, to push a certain car to a certain speed. It mostly makes me laugh when I hear guys at the track touting all these big HP numbers their motors supposedly made on the dynos, yet guys with WAY less power are wearing them out on a regular basis. Either there are a TON of really bad tuners out there, or a TON of "happy" dynos. In my own experiences, I vote for the latter.
Digby's motor could be made lots more nitrous friendly, with some changes and he knows that..........BUT, at the end of the day, the limited bore size will NEVER let the Mopar head breathe like the GM head on a bigger bore will. It's just simple physics. You CAN'T pass more through a smaller hole. This coupled to the fact that GM head development is an ongoing thing and the Mopar stuff is dead in the water, will only make the gap bigger and bigger in the future. I feel the Predator, while a GOOD head, is likely as good right now as it can ever be given the bore limits andthere seems to be a new and better off brand head nearly every day. You can NOT fight progress with 20 year old designs
Monte
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: Gary Robbins]
#1652887
08/07/14 11:52 PM
08/07/14 11:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Monte,
Knowing that all combos will be different...What is your preferred comp ratio and quench if you don't mind saying...Thanks Gary !
Many factors come into play on that Gary, but assuming we are building an "all out" nitrous motor, that will see in excess of 600hp for a small block or 800+ on a big block, I do have some numbers I shoot for. I don't like more than 13.5 or so on compression for any combo. Chad's 632 only has 12.2 and runs like a raped ape on the spray, but a little more would probably help it. The 738 is close to 14.1..............Quench is tricky, because the head comes into play, but on most small blocks I will want .080 at an absolute min, but prefer closer to .100. Most 600" or so big motors in the .100 range and our 738 has .140. More stroke, usually means you need more quench distance to make it happy. As far as camshafts go.......Billy said smaller, that is NOT the way I go. Most of the nitrous motors I do have absolute MONSTER camshafts in them. To use a lot of nitrous, you have to get it in and out of the motor, hence I do some big stuff. I have small block cams approaching an inch of lift and many BB cams over that by a good bit. LOTS of duration at .050 and wide LSA numbers. The CAMSHAFT is where 9 of 10 guys miss the setup on a nitrous motor
Monte
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1652888
08/08/14 12:03 AM
08/08/14 12:03 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Doesn't Indy and KB make 4.84 blocks.?? 
Chris.. 
What head you gonna put on that. An INDY 600-13?...........that ain't gonna get it done. NOW if they develop a NEW Predator casting for a 4.840 bore center, we might have something going, but I doubt that is EVER going to happen. Just not enough market share to warrant the development cost
Monte
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: a493demon]
#1652891
08/08/14 12:23 AM
08/08/14 12:23 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 162
monticello,ms
andy3965
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 162
monticello,ms
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Pics I took at South Georgia and Holly Springs
MOPAR BORN,MOPAR BRED,AND WHEN I DIE I'LL BE MOPAR DEAD!!!
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: Airwoofer]
#1652894
08/08/14 12:40 AM
08/08/14 12:40 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
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Most likely a dumb question...... Has anyone built a 99 motor with spraying it in mind? To much rpm's needed? Is that even a sensible platform 
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: andy3965]
#1652896
08/08/14 12:45 AM
08/08/14 12:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Many Mopar guys want to label me a Mopar hater and that is FAR from the truth. I LOVE Mopar but am also a racer and mostly a "realist". And the simple truth remains in a realistic situation of parts, we are way behind being able to compete on an inch per inch hp basis in most situations. Now, could I build a screw blown HEMI or a twin turbo HEMI and have just as good of a chance as anyone else regardless of brand.........yes I could. But that is not what I WANT to do. If I wanted a boosted combo, I would have one. None of the OTHER brands are limited to ONE single combo that could compete, so why do I have to be. Same as if I was running an N/A class that say had a 632in limit and allowed any cylinder head. As a Mopar guy, you are out. At the absolute BEST you could be given those rules, you will be 150+ HP down to the best Chevy and Ford combos. So why in the world would I be willing to go out and beat my head against the wall, knowing I can't compete, but possibly being able to say I have the "fastest 632 N/A Mopar"..........yeah, that gains me a lot of satisfaction. I like to WIN.
I realize most of my arguments fall on deaf ears, because the percentage of Mopar guys who choose to race in a "heads-up" class is very small, so the lack of HP making parts is a moot point. It simply doesn't matter to most who are die hard brand loyal, because most are looking to go as fast as THEY can, not faster than everyone else..........So just because I choose to be a heads up racer and constantly lament the fact that I can't get the parts to compete on a heads up level makes me NO LESS of a Mopar guy than anyone else, just a different TYPE Mopar guy. While having the "fastest Mopar" so and so may appeal to some, it doesn't to me. I don't find much solice in this "moral" victory and "everybody gets a ribbon" society we live in today. I want to win in my chosen class and crush the other guy while doing it, regardless of the brand he drives. This is the reason I ran very little of the KOS stuff when it was going good. I think I was number one qualifier at every KOS race I ran by a good margin, yet was just a top half car at NMCA or HOT ROD events. I always wanted to race the best of the best, not just the best of my brand. Brian Hicks was the same way and we both felt the same way about that. He flew the Mopar colors with the Chicago "Wise Guys" and I did the best I could with the NMCA and Hot Rod crowds. We were both very proud that we had two of the fastest small tire Mopars on the planet, but both wanted more. Nothing wrong with that.
Monte
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1652898
08/08/14 01:00 AM
08/08/14 01:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,675
On the parachute mount
n20mstr
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,675
On the parachute mount
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Quote:
Many Mopar guys want to label me a Mopar hater and that is FAR from the truth. I LOVE Mopar but am also a racer and mostly a "realist". And the simple truth remains in a realistic situation of parts, we are way behind being able to compete on an inch per inch hp basis in most situations. Now, could I build a screw blown HEMI or a twin turbo HEMI and have just as good of a chance as anyone else regardless of brand.........yes I could. But that is not what I WANT to do. If I wanted a boosted combo, I would have one. None of the OTHER brands are limited to ONE single combo that could compete, so why do I have to be. Same as if I was running an N/A class that say had a 632in limit and allowed any cylinder head. As a Mopar guy, you are out. At the absolute BEST you could be given those rules, you will be 150+ HP down to the best Chevy and Ford combos. So why in the world would I be willing to go out and beat my head against the wall, knowing I can't compete, but possibly being able to say I have the "fastest 632 N/A Mopar"..........yeah, that gains me a lot of satisfaction. I like to WIN.
I realize most of my arguments fall on deaf ears, because the percentage of Mopar guys who choose to race in a "heads-up" class is very small, so the lack of HP making parts is a moot point. It simply doesn't matter to most who are die hard brand loyal, because most are looking to go as fast as THEY can, not faster than everyone else..........So just because I choose to be a heads up racer and constantly lament the fact that I can't get the parts to compete on a heads up level makes me NO LESS of a Mopar guy than anyone else, just a different TYPE Mopar guy. While having the "fastest Mopar" so and so may appeal to some, it doesn't to me. I don't find much solice in this "moral" victory and "everybody gets a ribbon" society we live in today. I want to win in my chosen class and crush the other guy while doing it, regardless of the brand he drives. This is the reason I ran very little of the KOS stuff when it was going good. I think I was number one qualifier at every KOS race I ran by a good margin, yet was just a top half car at NMCA or HOT ROD events. I always wanted to race the best of the best, not just the best of my brand. Brian Hicks was the same way and we both felt the same way about that. He flew the Mopar colors with the Chicago "Wise Guys" and I did the best I could with the NMCA and Hot Rod crowds. We were both very proud that we had two of the fastest small tire Mopars on the planet, but both wanted more. Nothing wrong with that.
Monte
No one on here cares......lol
They all still purple shafts and Dana 60.....
What about ultra street ? Think a mopar can compete? The pontiacs seem to be doing ok
....BAD A$$ STREET CAR.....
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Re: Attn Steff
[Re: n20mstr]
#1652899
08/08/14 01:47 AM
08/08/14 01:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
Many Mopar guys want to label me a Mopar hater and that is FAR from the truth. I LOVE Mopar but am also a racer and mostly a "realist". And the simple truth remains in a realistic situation of parts, we are way behind being able to compete on an inch per inch hp basis in most situations. Now, could I build a screw blown HEMI or a twin turbo HEMI and have just as good of a chance as anyone else regardless of brand.........yes I could. But that is not what I WANT to do. If I wanted a boosted combo, I would have one. None of the OTHER brands are limited to ONE single combo that could compete, so why do I have to be. Same as if I was running an N/A class that say had a 632in limit and allowed any cylinder head. As a Mopar guy, you are out. At the absolute BEST you could be given those rules, you will be 150+ HP down to the best Chevy and Ford combos. So why in the world would I be willing to go out and beat my head against the wall, knowing I can't compete, but possibly being able to say I have the "fastest 632 N/A Mopar"..........yeah, that gains me a lot of satisfaction. I like to WIN.
I realize most of my arguments fall on deaf ears, because the percentage of Mopar guys who choose to race in a "heads-up" class is very small, so the lack of HP making parts is a moot point. It simply doesn't matter to most who are die hard brand loyal, because most are looking to go as fast as THEY can, not faster than everyone else..........So just because I choose to be a heads up racer and constantly lament the fact that I can't get the parts to compete on a heads up level makes me NO LESS of a Mopar guy than anyone else, just a different TYPE Mopar guy. While having the "fastest Mopar" so and so may appeal to some, it doesn't to me. I don't find much solice in this "moral" victory and "everybody gets a ribbon" society we live in today. I want to win in my chosen class and crush the other guy while doing it, regardless of the brand he drives. This is the reason I ran very little of the KOS stuff when it was going good. I think I was number one qualifier at every KOS race I ran by a good margin, yet was just a top half car at NMCA or HOT ROD events. I always wanted to race the best of the best, not just the best of my brand. Brian Hicks was the same way and we both felt the same way about that. He flew the Mopar colors with the Chicago "Wise Guys" and I did the best I could with the NMCA and Hot Rod crowds. We were both very proud that we had two of the fastest small tire Mopars on the planet, but both wanted more. Nothing wrong with that.
Monte
No one on here cares......lol
They all still purple shafts and Dana 60.....
What about ultra street ? Think a mopar can compete? The pontiacs seem to be doing ok
I think so...........I mean my 446 B-1 MC combo went teens and .20s 15 years ago, with a bad engine combo and a crappy nitrous tune in a single fogger. I had really good heads, but some new PSOs on a bigger shortblock and a sharp plate tune would make a lot more power than I did then. My car did work good and was going teen 60fts. That was the only reason it was as fast as it was. My stock block 451 INDY motor went 5.30s on the fogger before that.
Monte
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