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Overheating issue #1623010 05/21/14 01:06 PM 05/21/14 01:06 PM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Missouri C Citation_SP OP member
Citation_SP OP member C Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Missouri	I have a 1969 Plymouth with a recently blueprinted and balanced 383- 4 bbl engine with a 4 speed. The entire engine, water pump, fan, carb, dist and radiator is per OEM spec. The thermostat is a 160 degree part. The issue is this; the engine runs at around 170 degrees on an 85 degree outside temperature day while driving. While idling the temperature will climb to 200 plus degrees within about 10 minutes and that is when we shut it off. Glen-Ray radiators sent us a max cooling 22 inch radiator with 57 tubes versus the stock 45 tubes, 3 row versus the stock 2 row and larger cross sectional area tubes than the stock radiator. The car still overheats the same way. We have tried a stock 22 inch radiator, a 22inch aluminum radiator and the max cooling 22 inch radiator with the same results. On the highway the engine runs at around 170-180 degrees with no overheating. The bottom line appears that the engine is generating more heat at idle than the radiator can dissipate. I believe the issue has to do with something with the casting of the block. Anyone every run into this problem and was able to correct it? We are not looking for any �magic fixes� since the car is OEM and if it worked in 1969 there is no reason it should not work now. Thanks, Mike

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623011 05/21/14 01:23 PM 05/21/14 01:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,073 Niles , Ohio T therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah. T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,073 Niles , Ohio	What fan are you running and does it have a shroud?My 65 with built 440 runs at 180 or so all day.Even at the strip and hot lapping it never gets over 190.What type of gauge do you have elec or mechanical?My kids 413 also runs the same as mine.Mine has a OE stock 22 inch C body rad.Never touched with shroud.My hids 62 is stock 22 recored to 4 core no shroud.Rocky Chrysler Firepower

Re: Overheating issue [Re: therocks] #1623012 05/21/14 02:08 PM 05/21/14 02:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376 D dogdays I Live Here
dogdays I Live Here D Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 16,376	If the engine generates too much heat at idle, making what, 3hp? Then on the highway generating 50hp it doesn't overheat? That doesn't work for me. Also, if you have a decent radiator and pressure cap you can run safely up to around 250 degrees F. You need to see what the temperature will do at idle. Turning it off at 200F doesn't tell you anything. It may rise to 205F and stay there. Have you looked at your water pump? What's your fan look like? What's your actual spark advance at idle? The water pump is a centrifugal pump. That's the only part of this that makes sense. The pressure a centrifugal pump makes goes up as the square of the rpm. I could postulate a condition where there is enough frictional loss in the system that at idle the pump can't overcome it, but at higher rpm it can. This could be a faulty thermostat, for instance. But it'd have to be on the outlet side of the pump. R.

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623013 05/21/14 02:16 PM 05/21/14 02:16 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	either there ain't enough airflow (likely) at idle or not enough water flow or a combo of both. what fan/shroud & how far into the shroud is the fan? best is the MP thermal thermostatic clutch type fan spaced properly into the shroud (~1/2-3/4 into it iirc). If no shroud then how far is the fan from the rad? Post the crank and wp pulley diameters. On an unrelated issue the 160 stat needs to go & use a 180 or 185 after we solve this live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Overheating issue [Re: RapidRobert] #1623014 05/21/14 06:33 PM 05/21/14 06:33 PM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Missouri C Citation_SP OP member
Citation_SP OP member C Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 90 Missouri	Thanks for the info, however everything is NOS with the exception of the radiator which has been recored. The issue is that there is nothing that has not been checked or rebuilt other than the NOS items. The pulley ratios are what are called out in the service manual as far as the ratio is concerned, the thermostat is a 160 degree unit and the temp gauge is installed right above the temp sending unit in the water pump adapter casting and is a new laboratory gauge that is calibrated. There are no restrictions to the airflow and the radiator has been flow tested twice and flows as it should. The car did not come from the factory with a shroud. The short of it is there is nothing that has been checked that is not correct other than a casting defect in the block. The car runs very cool on the highway but at idle it overheats; this would lead one to believe it is a coolant flow or air flow issue but when we ran the engine before installing it in the car the water pump flowed properly. The fan is a standard 18 inch non clutch type that is correct for the car. Everything is correct for the car but it still overheats.

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623015 05/21/14 06:45 PM 05/21/14 06:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 8,672 A Andrewh master
Andrewh master A Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 8,672	so a couple of things. 1. 160 degree thermostat and it still runs 170 or 180 on the highway tells me you might have a flow problem anyway. it should run at the thermostat temp if you have sufficent cooling period. 2. you say the gauge is calibrated, but is the sending unit? 3. did this set up work properly before you replaced everything? regardless of what the service manual says, and regardless of what other cars run, did any of this work before?

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623016 05/21/14 06:46 PM 05/21/14 06:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,162 CT GTX MATT master
GTX MATT master Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,162 CT	YOU DONT HAVE ENOUGH INITIAL TIMING. Hook the vacuum advance to manifold vacuum for the easiest fix. What is the timing set at, 0 or 5 degrees before TDC? Last edited by GTX MATT; 05/21/14 06:47 PM. Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623017 05/21/14 07:04 PM 05/21/14 07:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX feets Senior Management
feets Senior Management Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 28,067 Irving, TX	Last summer I wrote a lengthy post about trouble shooting overheating issues. It addresses your situation and gives you a how-to on identifying the root cause. overheating thread Take a look. Once you have concrete data to use for troubleshooting the members of the forum won't have to guess at the cause. As it sits now, you've given just enough info to make each person give you a different answer. Get real world temps from different parts of the engine and cooling system when the engine is getting hot. Once you do that the speculation will die down and you'll get concrete answers. We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind. - Stu Harmon

Re: Overheating issue [Re: dogdays] #1623018 05/21/14 09:19 PM 05/21/14 09:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,945 WI Dcuda69 master
Dcuda69 master Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 4,945 WI	I agree with dogdays! 200 is NOT overheating. Leave it run a little if it never goes over 205-210 I'd say you're golden.You're kidding yourself if you think some of these cars didn't run hot when they were new. A shroud will be a big help at idle(even if the car didn't have one originally)

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623019 05/21/14 10:45 PM 05/21/14 10:45 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: While idling the temperature will climb to 200 plus degrees within about 10 minutes and that is when we shut it off. With an accurate gauge (or IR gun) let it max out (as long as it dont get too high) & post what you get live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Overheating issue [Re: RapidRobert] #1623020 05/22/14 12:26 AM 05/22/14 12:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN A ahy master
ahy master A Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 7,664 IN	I wouldn't (and don't) sweat 200 or 210 at extended idle if it cools off on a roll. 220 would get me a little worried and at 230 I would be worried. Suggestions to make it even better.. 1) install a 180 stat. Cooler than 180 can meaningfully reduce engine life. A 180 stat should be fully open at 190 and won't contribute to overheating. 2) Check WP specs vs OE. With AC and w/o AC used different pumps and pulley ratios 3) Install shroud if not there already as posted above 4) Check fan clutch if so equipped. Hayden (NAPA) makes a decent replacement clutch 5) As posted above, check tuneup especially timing. Inadequate initial advance can make more heat at idle. If a hotter cam is installed, more initial timing is needed... but max mechanical advance should be limited to 34-36 degrees.

Re: Overheating issue [Re: ahy] #1623021 05/22/14 12:41 AM 05/22/14 12:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,801 McGregor,Iowa 52157 5 500ciDuster top fuel
500ciDuster top fuel 5 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,801 McGregor,Iowa 52157	Check out the timing, retarded timing will heat um up quick

Re: Overheating issue [Re: 500ciDuster] #1623022 05/22/14 12:49 AM 05/22/14 12:49 AM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Timing Timing Timing --it is never and will never be the thin block idea--

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Citation_SP] #1623023 05/22/14 09:42 AM 05/22/14 09:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	Quote: I have a 1969 Plymouth with a recently blueprinted and balanced 383- 4 bbl engine with a 4 speed. The entire engine, water pump, fan, carb, dist and radiator is per OEM spec. The thermostat is a 160 degree part. The issue is this; the engine runs at around 170 degrees on an 85 degree outside temperature day while driving. While idling the temperature will climb to 200 plus degrees within about 10 minutes and that is when we shut it off. Glen-Ray radiators sent us a max cooling 22 inch radiator with 57 tubes versus the stock 45 tubes, 3 row versus the stock 2 row and larger cross sectional area tubes than the stock radiator. The car still overheats the same way. We have tried a stock 22 inch radiator, a 22inch aluminum radiator and the max cooling 22 inch radiator with the same results. On the highway the engine runs at around 170-180 degrees with no overheating. The bottom line appears that the engine is generating more heat at idle than the radiator can dissipate. I believe the issue has to do with something with the casting of the block. Anyone every run into this problem and was able to correct it? We are not looking for any �magic fixes� since the car is OEM and if it worked in 1969 there is no reason it should not work now. Thanks, Mike Like said timing could affect it. The main thing that is different today than from 1969 is the gasoline. It is not the same as 1969 gas so the carburetor jetting and timing can't be the same. I know folks get tired of hearing me say it may be lean and lean makes more heat. I promise and guarantee you that 10% ethanol gasoline runs leaner that straight gas of years ago. I sell fuel for living. Just a thought...

Re: Overheating issue [Re: ] #1623024 05/22/14 10:09 AM 05/22/14 10:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,794 Greer, SC TooMany62s top fuel
TooMany62s top fuel Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,794 Greer, SC	I'm voting for a fan issue. I had the same problem on my '62 convertible. Factory A/C, 22" 3 core radiator, stock fan clutch, stock shroud, correct pulleys, high flow water pump. I suspected that the fan clutch may be the culprit so I installed a seven blade fixed fan like the ones used on Daytonas and Superbirds. Sure enough the problem went away. Now the only problem I have is the car sounds like a giant Hoover vacuum cleaner. A shroud is a genuine potential fix if you don't already have one. I think a contributor to cooling problems on these old cars could be gasoline octane and quality. Keep in mind in the 60's 98 to 102 octane leaded fuel was readily available. Last edited by TooMany62s; 05/23/14 11:09 AM.

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Challenger 1] #1623025 05/22/14 12:11 PM 05/22/14 12:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,162 CT GTX MATT master
GTX MATT master Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,162 CT	Quote: I promise and guarantee you that 10% ethanol gasoline runs leaner that straight gas of years ago. And the straight gas of years ago runs hotter than the leaded gas of years before that Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street

Re: Overheating issue [Re: GTX MATT] #1623026 05/22/14 08:50 PM 05/22/14 08:50 PM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	Generally speaking, low road speed cooling issues are air flow related. High road speed cooling issues are water flow related. Assuming you are not lean and your timing isn't retarded and OEM specs are no longer relevant today due to changes in gas formulation. Also, the thermostat has no affect on top end temperature, just minimum temperature and running a 160 degree thermostat is probably not "Stock" and almost never a good choice for a street car. Get a shroud, it is specifically there for the exact issues you have. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: Overheating issue [Re: Supercuda] #1623027 05/22/14 09:57 PM 05/22/14 09:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,073 Niles , Ohio T therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah. T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,073 Niles , Ohio	Millions of Mopars came minus shrouds.Its a good idea but they didnt use them on the majority of new cars.Ive had them since the 60s and only a few had a shroud.My kids 62 300 none my 65 none 69 Bee none et.Rocky Chrysler Firepower

Re: Overheating issue [Re: therocks] #1623028 05/23/14 12:13 AM 05/23/14 12:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	Yes and when I rebuilt the 413 in my 64 300 I had nothing but low speed overheating issues, real ones with coolant puking. Till I got a shroud. New pump, new fan, new radiator, etc did nothing. A shroud fixed it. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

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