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Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: mike s] #1611389 04/26/14 12:58 PM 04/26/14 12:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	I had misread that the idle was now in spec. I would stay on that/get it right before I moved on to "cruise" live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611390 04/26/14 07:42 PM 04/26/14 07:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 117 Aus H hysteric member
hysteric member H Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 117 Aus	" but I am still too rich on the idle" You need a rich idle. Desired Carburetor AFR Characteristics At Different % Load Hysteric

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: hysteric] #1611391 04/26/14 11:02 PM 04/26/14 11:02 PM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	Almost there. I have the 1411 running pretty sweet on the 440 with Eddy RPM Intake. Tomorrow I will play around with the springs to see if I can help smooth down the cruise-power transitions a little bit. Idle - 13-14 (No change here) Cruise - Now 13.5-14.5 (Was 10-12 before adjustments) WOT - Now 12.5-14.5 depending on load occasional spike to 16 (Was 14-15 before changes) What I have done from the stock carb is: A) Change linkage on accelerator pump to use the lowest setting. This helped to slightly lean out my off-idle acceleration (It was bogging down at an A/F of 9-10) B) Changed secondaries to 1433 (Two steps richer that stock) C) Changed Rods to 1458 (This gave me 4% richer mixture at power and WOT Tomorrow I will change the main jet down a notch to see if I can get the off-idle and cruise a tad leaner. I will also play around with the springs a little but to see if I can smooth the transitions. Plus, I still see an intermittent lean spike of 15-16 during power and WOT. The one thing I have learned in this is that jet, rod and pump position changes are far more gradual than I expected. A change in jet size for example changed A/F by about 1/2 point.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611392 04/27/14 10:44 AM 04/27/14 10:44 AM
Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,520 West Palm Beach, Florida Copper Dart pro stock
Copper Dart pro stock Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,520 West Palm Beach, Florida	Great thread! Please keep the info comming. I don't have the O2 sensor but your results are helping me with mine. 383 auto with a eddy1407. Common sense, the least common of all the senses. Mom. For fear of ridicule, society stifles creativity. Ricky Valdes

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: hysteric] #1611393 04/27/14 12:40 PM 04/27/14 12:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	Hysteric, that is an excellent post. Thank you for the link. I am looking at the chart now and I agree that my 440 is far happier with an idle between 11.7-12.6. I get far better vacuum readings with that A/F My problem is when RPMs increase off-idle, the mixture drops in A/F to 10-11 and I get a stumble in power. After the quick stumble it starts to lean out as it should. I only get this from idle. If I lean the idle mixture to 13-14 then the drop and stumble is not as bad. On the other end, the power is 1-2 points too lean even with the jet and rod changes and my WOT is still too lean as well. I am hoping some spring changes today may help with those too. As for the low-end rich stumble, I may replace the nozzle on the accelerator to get a leaner injection to help me get that smooth transition from idle to cruise that is shown in the chart you posted.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611394 04/27/14 02:46 PM 04/27/14 02:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA	I like and use 14.3 to 15.3 AFR at idle on the fuel and altitude where I live, that being said the plugs at 11.8 to 12.5 at idle will be very black, not good A lean mixture burns much hottor and is more efficient, not all motors like rich mixtures, most Chevys do Lots of ways to tune On the WOT try using some 1000 grit sand paper or some scotchbrite on the bottom step of your metering rods to enrichen it, measure it first and often, shoot for .002 smaller at first Make one jet size change bigger on the secondarys also Tune it until you like it, don't be suprised if you get it to lean or to fat before you have it perfect Watch the sparks plugs while tuning it, all 8 Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611395 04/27/14 05:07 PM 04/27/14 05:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi B bee1971 master
bee1971 master B Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi	Quote: Hysteric, that is an excellent post. Thank you for the link. I am looking at the chart now and I agree that my 440 is far happier with an idle between 11.7-12.6. I get far better vacuum readings with that A/F My problem is when RPMs increase off-idle, the mixture drops in A/F to 10-11 and I get a stumble in power. After the quick stumble it starts to lean out as it should. I only get this from idle. If I lean the idle mixture to 13-14 then the drop and stumble is not as bad. On the other end, the power is 1-2 points too lean even with the jet and rod changes and my WOT is still too lean as well. I am hoping some spring changes today may help with those too. As for the low-end rich stumble, I may replace the nozzle on the accelerator to get a leaner injection to help me get that smooth transition from idle to cruise that is shown in the chart you posted. All Classic Symptoms Of The 1407/1411 That You Are Experiencing With that said , I will keep my negative comments to myself , and the one thousand other negative threads that I could post about the 1407/1411 Good Luck , At Least Your Making Progress Last edited by bee1971; 04/27/14 05:09 PM. 1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: bee1971] #1611396 04/27/14 08:21 PM 04/27/14 08:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 117 Aus H hysteric member
hysteric member H Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 117 Aus	Quote: All Classic Symptoms Of The 1407/1411 That You Are Experiencing With that said , I will keep my negative comments to myself , and the one thousand other negative threads that I could post about the 1407/1411 Good Luck , At Least Your Making Progress With that said: Eddie 750 thread on Speedtalk From what i understand the you are encountering another issue with it going rich. You can also disconnect the accelerator pump and test the transfer slot and see how it runs. You will have to ease into the throttle though but it will still drive just dont do any sudden accelerating as it will bog. Hope this helps Hysteric

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611397 04/27/14 10:45 PM 04/27/14 10:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa dvw master
dvw master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa	Quote: Hysteric, that is an excellent post. Thank you for the link. I am looking at the chart now and I agree that my 440 is far happier with an idle between 11.7-12.6. I get far better vacuum readings with that A/F My problem is when RPMs increase off-idle, the mixture drops in A/F to 10-11 and I get a stumble in power. After the quick stumble it starts to lean out as it should. I only get this from idle. If I lean the idle mixture to 13-14 then the drop and stumble is not as bad. On the other end, the power is 1-2 points too lean even with the jet and rod changes and my WOT is still too lean as well. I am hoping some spring changes today may help with those too. As for the low-end rich stumble, I may replace the nozzle on the accelerator to get a leaner injection to help me get that smooth transition from idle to cruise that is shown in the chart you posted. Are the metering rods lifting early? Try softer metering rod springs. Doug

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: bee1971] #1611398 04/27/14 10:51 PM 04/27/14 10:51 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa dvw master
dvw master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa	Quote: Quote: Hysteric, that is an excellent post. Thank you for the link. I am looking at the chart now and I agree that my 440 is far happier with an idle between 11.7-12.6. I get far better vacuum readings with that A/F My problem is when RPMs increase off-idle, the mixture drops in A/F to 10-11 and I get a stumble in power. After the quick stumble it starts to lean out as it should. I only get this from idle. If I lean the idle mixture to 13-14 then the drop and stumble is not as bad. On the other end, the power is 1-2 points too lean even with the jet and rod changes and my WOT is still too lean as well. I am hoping some spring changes today may help with those too. As for the low-end rich stumble, I may replace the nozzle on the accelerator to get a leaner injection to help me get that smooth transition from idle to cruise that is shown in the chart you posted. All Classic Symptoms Of The 1407/1411 That You Are Experiencing With that said , I will keep my negative comments to myself , and the one thousand other negative threads that I could post about the 1407/1411 Good Luck , At Least Your Making Progress I find it quite comical that you seem to show up on every Edelbrock carb post. Never any helpful tips or information, just that they're terrible. Why do you bother? Doug

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: dvw] #1611399 04/27/14 11:59 PM 04/27/14 11:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi B bee1971 master
bee1971 master B Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,810 Sobieski Wi	Quote: Quote: Quote: Hysteric, that is an excellent post. Thank you for the link. I am looking at the chart now and I agree that my 440 is far happier with an idle between 11.7-12.6. I get far better vacuum readings with that A/F My problem is when RPMs increase off-idle, the mixture drops in A/F to 10-11 and I get a stumble in power. After the quick stumble it starts to lean out as it should. I only get this from idle. If I lean the idle mixture to 13-14 then the drop and stumble is not as bad. On the other end, the power is 1-2 points too lean even with the jet and rod changes and my WOT is still too lean as well. I am hoping some spring changes today may help with those too. As for the low-end rich stumble, I may replace the nozzle on the accelerator to get a leaner injection to help me get that smooth transition from idle to cruise that is shown in the chart you posted. All Classic Symptoms Of The 1407/1411 That You Are Experiencing With that said , I will keep my negative comments to myself , and the one thousand other negative threads that I could post about the 1407/1411 Good Luck , At Least Your Making Progress I find it quite comical that you seem to show up on every Edelbrock carb post. Never any helpful tips or information, just that they're terrible. Why do you bother? Doug Its not my problem that 90% of the Edelbrock posts on this website are directed at the 1407/1411 Series Carbs And I only state that the 1407/1411s are terrible , so lets clear that up right away Anyways , to answer your question To save people alot of headaches , alot of wasted time spent working on something that cant bee fixed without drilling this that and , alot of money also - But I guess guys like you cant read very well - Click on the link that Hysteric posted , some pretty valuable info in there - I could post some more links if you like ??? Chances are you wouldn't read those either ,or just read what you want or might understand - There was a thread a few weeks ago - Even an Edelbrock Tech basically said the very same thing in that thread , Don't you find that kind of comical , An Edelbrock Tech would say such a thing ??? Helpful , its called - EDELBROCK 800 1412/1413 Series or EDELBROCK 650/800 AVS Series !!! You can thank me later Last edited by bee1971; 04/28/14 12:12 AM. 1971 Dodge Charger Superbee 2011 Ram Sport 1500 Quad Cab Deep Water Blue Loaded Siberian Huskies

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: hysteric] #1611400 04/28/14 12:34 AM 04/28/14 12:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	Just about through with this little tuning endeavor and I am close enough to consider it a win. I will monitor and tweak it a little more but my 440 is running pretty strong with the 1411. For me, Warm Idle is happiest with a vacuum of 16 and an average mixture of around 13. It will bounce between 12-13. I have no lean stumble but from a stop in first I will get a very slight rich stumble that I can probably adjust out with a smaller idle nozzle. Cruise is nearly perfect ranging between 13.5 and 14.5 depending on hills and terrain. Power has a large range depending on the Vacuum/RPM. At low RPM the mixture drops to about 12.5-13 and as the RPMs come up it climbs as high as 15.9. With WOT, it takes about a full second before I see the A/F drop from the High-Power 15-16 down to the rich 12-13 mixture I was looking for. I am not 100% sure how this transition should work so I will research more before I change any more springs. I can say that the transition I have is smooth. From the base 1411, this is what I have done: Primaries - Stock 1432 (.110) Secondaries - 1433 (.113) Two steps larger Rods - 1458 (75/37) Stock Primary, Richer Secondary Springs - Silver 8-in Hg Moved the Accelerator Pump linkage to the lowest spot to lean out the Rich stumble I was getting off-idle My numbers are not perfect but I have no dead spots during fast or slow acceleration or at WOT. The car drives effortlessly once I get it rolling into first. The important takeaways I would give myself if I was starting over are: 1) Use an O2 Sensor/Gauge but don't ignore Vacuum or drivabilty 2) Changes in jets and rods are VERY gradual so document each change and its result 3) Take your time and read/learn as you go. Once you really understand the relationship between the Carb and your Vacuum system you will find the process easier. 4) 14.1-14.9 is the overall goal for cruising only. Idle needs to be be richer and your power will range based on Vacuum and load. Once the Power starts to near WOT, the vacuum will drop and the metering spring will release and allow a richer flow. In short, the mixture should be as low as 12 for some situations and even as high as 15-16 in some situations. Once you understand the components and vacuum then you are set. 8126609-mixture.jpg (153 downloads)

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: bee1971] #1611401 04/28/14 12:38 AM 04/28/14 12:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa dvw master
dvw master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,834 MI, usa	And I only state that the 1407/1411s are terrible , so lets clear that up right away My point exactly. I see this as "very useful and helpful information". Is it you mission in life to spread the word of doom and gloom to all 1407/1411 owners? If you can't give any useful information to help with the problem, why do you always post on the Edelbrock carb questions? By the way mine isn't drilled and works fine. Doug

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: dvw] #1611402 04/28/14 07:35 AM 04/28/14 07:35 AM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	DVW, today I am going to do the spring test where I watch the metering rod assembly to see how it reacts with a little throttle. I do not think it is opening too soon though. However, I am not convinced that I have the right springs so I am going to monitor the system for a few days for drivability and some quick glances at A/F. The rich "dip" for lack of a better word is very fast and only comes into play when I try to get the car rolling into first. It is for a split second, at low RPM (and I assume high vacuum) and it is just enough to make a stumble. It is exactly as the common lean complaint except my O2 gauge drops to 10 instead of shooting up to 16.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: bee1971] #1611403 04/28/14 07:54 AM 04/28/14 07:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	Bee1971, I read the threads and complaints before I bought the carb but I wanted to give it as shot. The only reason I decided to do this level of work and documentation was my discovery that my stumble problem was due to a rich condition and not lean. Nearly all of the 1411 stumble threads tell the reader to make the carb richer automatically and to drill, enlarge and/or bend the pump rod. If I had taken that advise I would have made things worse. I am hoping that the next person who has a stumble problem will see these threads and consider other possibilities before getting out the drill. There are thousands of 1411's out there and my bet is many of them could be tuned to work. I have gotten 99% of the bugs out of mine and am now just down to the fine-tuning.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611404 04/28/14 10:28 AM 04/28/14 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan I Live Here
gdonovan I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: There are thousands of 1411's out there and my bet is many of them could be tuned to work. A very large number of them work fine right out of the box, it baffles me the Holley boys wade right into these threads with no constructive advice at all. If you look on the board there are dozens and dozens of Holley threads where people are told to swap/drill/repair + jet/airbleed/powervalve/shooter/cam to resolve some issue and I have yet to see any Carter or Edelbrock owner tossing around the amount of invective that Holley owners do. The selective memory is something to behold, its a heads I win tails you lose mentality. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: gdonovan] #1611405 04/28/14 02:26 PM 04/28/14 02:26 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,157 Bend,OR USA	Many if the problems people have with carbs. is related to the motor combination, a SB Chevy with a single palne intake is a lot different than a BB Mopar with a dual plane intake, they won't even like the same AFR in all modes of operation with the same carb. Been there done that Steve, keep tuning, perfection is near Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Cab_Burge] #1611406 04/28/14 02:37 PM 04/28/14 02:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Steve I gonna compliment on your high level of tech & your dedication in staying with this & not getting distracted by the little bit of nonsense that's been tossed out here & there. I too have one (1407) that I bought used from a member here & I went ahead & bought a kit and a strip kit but I ain't up & running yet. Time will tell. Stay on this you're doing great man that innovate is a hell of a tool, I gotta get that bung welded live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: RapidRobert] #1611407 04/29/14 01:56 PM 04/29/14 01:56 PM
Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia S Steve Bryant OP mopar
Steve Bryant OP mopar S Joined: Aug 2013 Posts: 518 Georgia	Thanks RapidRobert. What did distract me was a bent rod! I just replaced it and am getting back to the carb as soon as these storms blow past. I would definitely get that bung welded The A/F meter takes a lot of guesswork out of it also means I pull the plugs about 1/10 the time during my checks. Now that the #3 intake valve can open fully again, I expect to see different A/F numbers. I'll be back in a couple of days. We have some bad storms sweeping through the south right now.

Re: 440 - Eddy 750 - Stumble but rich and not lean [Re: Steve Bryant] #1611408 04/29/14 10:08 PM 04/29/14 10:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,976 Chilliwack B.C. Canada R RUNCHARGER I Live Here
RUNCHARGER I Live Here R Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,976 Chilliwack B.C. Canada	Thanks for the post. I love actual, hands on posts with reasoning and results. Sheldon

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