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-.005 timing chain with standard sprokets #1607657 04/15/14 01:22 AM 04/15/14 01:22 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky W wyoming OP top fuel
wyoming OP top fuel W Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky	Is it ok to put a -.005 timing chain on standard sprockets? On a -.005 set is the chain shorter, or are the sprockets bigger? My old engine was linebored a few years back, when I rebuilt it I put a standard rollmaster set on it, and honestly the chain wasnt as tight as I liked. Ive ran it and it hasnt improved, imagine that, its a little bit looser, but the sprokets look new. They are the good steel ones, would it be ok to put a .-005 chain on it?

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607658 04/15/14 12:15 PM 04/15/14 12:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A.	I think I have seen shorter chains listed edit ... and here is a Cloyes http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-134-5/overview/make/chrysler Last edited by JohnRR; 04/16/14 11:54 AM.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: JohnRR] #1607659 04/15/14 04:09 PM 04/15/14 04:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	Interesting as in the new Muscle Car Review mag they have an article on a Pontiac 428 build and they tell how they line bored the mains. Says they cut .015 off the main cap and only enough to square the block cap surface which was .002 I think. When they line bore it they cut .014 out of the main cap and only .001 from the block. Said it barely effects the timing chain slack that way. But I would think if your new chain feels loose then why not try the -.005 chain and see if it goes on and helps. Ron

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: 383man] #1607660 04/15/14 06:42 PM 04/15/14 06:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,560 S.E. Michigan cl440 master
cl440 master Joined: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,560 S.E. Michigan	I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response: Chuck, The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: cl440] #1607661 04/15/14 07:19 PM 04/15/14 07:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response: Chuck, The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears. Thats what I was thinking.. if it was the chain then it would bind a roller... I use a tensioner on my SB

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: cl440] #1607662 04/15/14 07:46 PM 04/15/14 07:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A.	Quote: I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response: Chuck, The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears. Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ...

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: JohnRR] #1607663 04/15/14 07:53 PM 04/15/14 07:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky W wyoming OP top fuel
wyoming OP top fuel W Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky	They do offer -005 and -010 chains and chain and sprockets sets, just not sure what is differnt about them. Not sure is the differnce is in the sprockets or the chain, seems it would be hard to make a chain -005 shorter than another?

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: JohnRR] #1607664 04/15/14 08:01 PM 04/15/14 08:01 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	Quote: Quote: I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response: Chuck, The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears. Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ... If you are going to go back and delete ALL of your posts that are wrong, it may be a while till we hear back from you....which Would be a good thing

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607665 04/15/14 09:38 PM 04/15/14 09:38 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,190 Bend,OR USA C Cab_Burge I Win
Cab_Burge I Win C Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 43,190 Bend,OR USA	I had to use a -.005 shorter Cloyes timing chain on one of thier new True double roller timing sets to get it tight in one of the motors I did last year I beleive the gears are different between the different Cloyes part number timing sets, standard OEM replacement set versus a True Roller set versus a Billet 9 way set I have tried using a .005 shorter timing chain from a True Rller set on the cheaper Cloyes OEM timing sets, that didn't work Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: JohnRR] #1607666 04/16/14 11:56 AM 04/16/14 11:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Quote: I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response: Chuck, The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears. Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ... My SFB stalker gave me the motivation to look around ... Cloyes Chrysler chain at summit , .005 AND .010 shorter . Here is the -.005 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-134-5/overview/make/chrysler

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607667 04/16/14 12:00 PM 04/16/14 12:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Quote: They do offer -005 and -010 chains and chain and sprockets sets, just not sure what is differnt about them. Not sure is the differnce is in the sprockets or the chain, seems it would be hard to make a chain -005 shorter than another? Same confusion here... I had to use a .005"-shorter Pro-Gear set on my align-bored 440 block to reduce the side play in the chain to an acceptable amount. I've also been able to purchase a .005"-shorter chain separately like what came w/ the Pro-Gear set, so I don't understand how it can be the gears/sprockets; are the short(er) chains simply not pre-stretched as much as the long(er) chains? FWIW, my two Rollmaster sets really didn't hold up well and I pitched them after about 5K of street/strip usage. The Pro-Gear set I replaced the last one with didn't appear to have stretched a bit after a few thousand miles of street/strip usage and is going back into the rebuild just as tight as it started. I think Rollmaster may offer higher-grade chain sets (heat treated / coated gears & sprockets?) that "should" hold up better, but that's not what I see most U.S. vendors offering. I think Scott Brown's web site showed the high-end Rollmaster sets for BBM, but the price was $30-40 higher IIRC than the "standard" Rollmaster sets I think most people sell. EDIT: Here's the high-end Rollmaster set that Scott Brown offers. I noticed it has std / -.005" /-.010" options listed: http://www.buyracingparts.com/timing-sets/rollmaster-bb-mopar-timing-set---3-bolt.html Last edited by BradH; 04/16/14 01:26 PM.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: BradH] #1607668 04/16/14 06:15 PM 04/16/14 06:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky W wyoming OP top fuel
wyoming OP top fuel W Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky	The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607669 04/16/14 06:29 PM 04/16/14 06:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys When you talk diameter of the TWO gears you are only making it about .0005 bigger(and thats on the large size since you talking PI)... if the rollers have enough slop between each other then they could make just the chain shorter... or if they are built to a CLOSE spec then a shorter chain would have bind on the rollers to gear... you cant change just one gear vs the other... givin enough rotations it would start to change the cam location to the crank

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607670 04/16/14 07:05 PM 04/16/14 07:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,015 U.S.S.A.	Quote: The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys The picture of a chevy V6 Cloyes chain I found showed one link that was a different color , I'm assuming they make the chain shorter by that one link ???

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: JohnRR] #1607671 04/16/14 07:43 PM 04/16/14 07:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	Quote: When you talk diameter of the TWO gears you are only making it about .0005 bigger(and thats on the large size since you talking PI)... if the rollers have enough slop between each other then they could make just the chain shorter... or if they are built to a CLOSE spec then a shorter chain would have bind on the rollers to gear... you cant change just one gear vs the other... givin enough rotations it would start to change the cam location to the crank Uh, no! When they talk "oversize" they actually mean the difference in the line bore from the stock position. So a .005" o/s would be a line bore that id .005" closer to the cam. The top sprocket ONLY is made oversize. For a .005" o/s, the top sprocket needs to shorten each side of the chain by .005". Since only half the sprocket is in contact with the chain, half the circumference has to take up .010" total. Half the circumference of a 6" diameter sprocket is close to 9.5" so the sprocket has to have about .001" per inch added to its diameter for a total of about .020". No chain will ever notice that. As to enough rotation changing the position of the crank ... can't happen. The number of teeth is what counts and as long as its the two-to-one ratio, the crank position will never move.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: Stanton] #1607672 04/16/14 07:44 PM 04/16/14 07:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	Did you notice the nifty gauge on the rollmaster site to determine what o/s size you need ?!?!

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: Stanton] #1607673 04/16/14 09:41 PM 04/16/14 09:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky W wyoming OP top fuel
wyoming OP top fuel W Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky	Stanton, will a .005 chain be tighter on stock size sprockets? Both Rollmaster double roller? Im still not sure if the chain is shorter or the sprocket bigger, seems they offer shorter chains?

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607674 04/16/14 09:57 PM 04/16/14 09:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky W wyoming OP top fuel
wyoming OP top fuel W Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,152 Fancy Farm Ky	After doing some reading on the rollmaster site it apears that rollmaster uses a slightly larger cam sproket to take up the slack in a stock chain for linebore caused slack, it apears looking at some other sites that other manufacturers sell a chain that is shorter, and I think that is done with one link.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607675 04/16/14 11:34 PM 04/16/14 11:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio S Sport440 master
Sport440 master S Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio	Quote: After doing some reading on the rollmaster site it apears that rollmaster uses a slightly larger cam sproket to take up the slack in a stock chain for linebore caused slack, it apears looking at some other sites that other manufacturers sell a chain that is shorter, and I think that is done with one link. With that said , your best bet is the shorter chain, since you already have sprockets. Your loose so the .005 will be tighter. But would the .010 be better. As someone stated the Rollmaster site has info to help you with that. Last edited by Sport440; 04/17/14 12:22 AM.

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets [Re: wyoming] #1607676 04/16/14 11:54 PM 04/16/14 11:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada S Stanton Don't question me!
Stanton Don't question me! S Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 8,872 Ontario, Canada	Quote: Stanton, will a .005 chain be tighter on stock size sprockets? Both Rollmaster double roller? Im still not sure if the chain is shorter or the sprocket bigger, seems they offer shorter chains? I imagine it would be tighter in the sense that it will take up the slack - not tighter as in not fitting the sprocket. I'd always doubted the existence of shorter chains but it never occurred to me that one or two links could do the job.

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