-.005 timing chain with standard sprokets

Posted By: wyoming

-.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 05:22 AM

Is it ok to put a -.005 timing chain on standard sprockets? On a -.005 set is the chain shorter, or are the sprockets bigger? My old engine was linebored a few years back, when I rebuilt it I put a standard rollmaster set on it, and honestly the chain wasnt as tight as I liked. Ive ran it and it hasnt improved, imagine that, its a little bit looser, but the sprokets look new. They are the good steel ones, would it be ok to put a .-005 chain on it?

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 04:15 PM

I think I have seen shorter chains listed

edit ... and here is a Cloyes

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-134-5/overview/make/chrysler

Posted By: 383man

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 08:09 PM

Interesting as in the new Muscle Car Review mag they have an article on a Pontiac 428 build and they tell how they line bored the mains. Says they cut .015 off the main cap and only enough to square the block cap surface which was .002 I think. When they line bore it they cut .014 out of the main cap and only .001 from the block. Said it barely effects the timing chain slack that way. But I would think if your new chain feels loose then why not try the -.005 chain and see if it goes on and helps. Ron

Posted By: cl440

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 10:42 PM

I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response:

Chuck,
The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 11:19 PM

Quote:

I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response:

Chuck,
The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Thats what I was thinking.. if it was the chain then
it would bind a roller... I use a tensioner on my SB

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 11:46 PM

Quote:

I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response:

Chuck,
The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ...

Posted By: wyoming

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/15/14 11:53 PM

They do offer -005 and -010 chains and chain and sprockets sets, just not sure what is differnt about them. Not sure is the differnce is in the sprockets or the chain, seems it would be hard to make a chain -005 shorter than another?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 12:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response:

Chuck,
The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ...

If you are going to go back and delete ALL of your posts that are wrong, it may be a while till we hear back from you....which Would be a good thing

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 01:38 AM

I had to use a -.005 shorter Cloyes timing chain on one of thier new True double roller timing sets to get it tight in one of the motors I did last year

I beleive the gears are different between the different Cloyes part number timing sets, standard OEM replacement set versus a True Roller set versus a Billet 9 way set

I have tried using a .005 shorter timing chain from a True Rller set on the cheaper Cloyes OEM timing sets, that didn't work

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 03:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I emailed Rollmaster a while back about this. Here is the response:

Chuck,
The chains themselves do not make the c/c shorter. That is made up in the cam and crank gears.

Well I'll be , I'll have to go fishing to see what it is I saw ... when I have nothing to do ...

My SFB stalker gave me the motivation to look around ...

Cloyes Chrysler chain at summit , .005 AND .010 shorter .

Here is the -.005
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-134-5/overview/make/chrysler

Posted By: BradH

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 04:00 PM

Quote:

They do offer -005 and -010 chains and chain and sprockets sets, just not sure what is differnt about them. Not sure is the differnce is in the sprockets or the chain, seems it would be hard to make a chain -005 shorter than another?

Same confusion here... I had to use a .005"-shorter Pro-Gear set on my align-bored 440 block to reduce the side play in the chain to an acceptable amount.

I've also been able to purchase a .005"-shorter chain separately like what came w/ the Pro-Gear set, so I don't understand how it can be the gears/sprockets; are the short(er) chains simply not pre-stretched as much as the long(er) chains?

FWIW, my two Rollmaster sets really didn't hold up well and I pitched them after about 5K of street/strip usage. The Pro-Gear set I replaced the last one with didn't appear to have stretched a bit after a few thousand miles of street/strip usage and is going back into the rebuild just as tight as it started.

I think Rollmaster may offer higher-grade chain sets (heat treated / coated gears & sprockets?) that "should" hold up better, but that's not what I see most U.S. vendors offering. I think Scott Brown's web site showed the high-end Rollmaster sets for BBM, but the price was $30-40 higher IIRC than the "standard" Rollmaster sets I think most people sell.

EDIT: Here's the high-end Rollmaster set that Scott Brown offers. I noticed it has std / -.005" /-.010" options listed:

http://www.buyracingparts.com/timing-sets/rollmaster-bb-mopar-timing-set---3-bolt.html

Posted By: wyoming

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 10:15 PM

The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 10:29 PM

Quote:

The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys

When you talk diameter of the TWO gears you are only
making it about .0005 bigger(and thats on the large
size since you talking PI)... if the rollers have
enough slop between each other then they could make
just the chain shorter... or if they are built to
a CLOSE spec then a shorter chain would have bind
on the rollers to gear... you cant change just one
gear vs the other... givin enough rotations it would
start to change the cam location to the crank

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 11:05 PM

Quote:

The Rollmaster I have was the best quality one they sell, the chain has not stretched a whole lot but it was a little loose when I put it on,and isnt getting better. The shop that machined the block for the new caps told me a standard would be fine he thought. I just thought if I could buy a shorter one I would since my spockets look excellent. I then got to thinking about the manufaturing of those and wondered how they make a chain that long .005 shorter, and wondered if the real differnce was in the sprocket od, it would seem to be much easier to do than shorten a chain? I havent counted the links in the chain but there are enough that each link would have to be .000? shorter for the chain to be .005 shorter. That seems like challenge as far as manufacturing? Would think it would be easier to make one sproket a hair bigger to take up the .005? Just got to wondering about it. I think Ill give a short one a try and see how it does, thanks guys

The picture of a chevy V6 Cloyes chain I found showed one link that was a different color , I'm assuming they make the chain shorter by that one link ???

Posted By: Stanton

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 11:43 PM

Quote:

When you talk diameter of the TWO gears you are only
making it about .0005 bigger(and thats on the large
size since you talking PI)... if the rollers have
enough slop between each other then they could make
just the chain shorter... or if they are built to
a CLOSE spec then a shorter chain would have bind
on the rollers to gear... you cant change just one
gear vs the other... givin enough rotations it would
start to change the cam location to the crank

Uh, no!
When they talk "oversize" they actually mean the difference in the line bore from the stock position. So a .005" o/s would be a line bore that id .005" closer to the cam.
The top sprocket ONLY is made oversize. For a .005" o/s, the top sprocket needs to shorten each side of the chain by .005". Since only half the sprocket is in contact with the chain, half the circumference has to take up .010" total. Half the circumference of a 6" diameter sprocket is close to 9.5" so the sprocket has to have about .001" per inch added to its diameter for a total of about .020". No chain will ever notice that.

As to enough rotation changing the position of the crank ... can't happen. The number of teeth is what counts and as long as its the two-to-one ratio, the crank position will never move.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/16/14 11:44 PM

Did you notice the nifty gauge on the rollmaster site to determine what o/s size you need ?!?!

Posted By: wyoming

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/17/14 01:41 AM

Stanton, will a .005 chain be tighter on stock size sprockets? Both Rollmaster double roller? Im still not sure if the chain is shorter or the sprocket bigger, seems they offer shorter chains?

Posted By: wyoming

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/17/14 01:57 AM

After doing some reading on the rollmaster site it apears that rollmaster uses a slightly larger cam sproket to take up the slack in a stock chain for linebore caused slack, it apears looking at some other sites that other manufacturers sell a chain that is shorter, and I think that is done with one link.

Posted By: Sport440

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/17/14 03:34 AM

Quote:

After doing some reading on the rollmaster site it apears that rollmaster uses a slightly larger cam sproket to take up the slack in a stock chain for linebore caused slack, it apears looking at some other sites that other manufacturers sell a chain that is shorter, and I think that is done with one link.

With that said , your best bet is the shorter chain, since you already have sprockets. Your loose so the .005 will be tighter. But would the .010 be better. As someone stated the Rollmaster site has info to help you with that.

Posted By: Stanton

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/17/14 03:54 AM

Quote:

Stanton, will a .005 chain be tighter on stock size sprockets? Both Rollmaster double roller? Im still not sure if the chain is shorter or the sprocket bigger, seems they offer shorter chains?

I imagine it would be tighter in the sense that it will take up the slack - not tighter as in not fitting the sprocket.

I'd always doubted the existence of shorter chains but it never occurred to me that one or two links could do the job.

Posted By: BradH

Re: -.005 timing chain with standard sprokets - 04/18/14 05:52 PM

Jeez... this post has got me questioning my memory on what parts I bought for my future 451 build: Did I buy a new Pro-Gear standard set with a spare -.005" chain, or a -.005" set with an extra standard chain?

I figured since the block had been align-bored for aluminum caps that I might need to run a shorter chain (like I do w/ my 452 block), but was hoping to have both bases covered when trial-fitting everything.