TX9hemi
Moparts Member
Posts: 1293
From: Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-24-2002 11:41 PM
Hmmmm. Just read a well researched article about the elusive and mysterious 3 '70 Daytona's. According to the article(for those who haven't recieved the new MCG):
* Those close to actor Robert Goulet say he never owned any such car.
* The 'Green car', with the moulded nose was a custom, built by a Detroit shop.
* Jerry Jueneman's car is a dealer-conversion out of a Washington D.C dealership.
I'll bet ol' Jerry isn't to happy about that article, as he want 1/4 mil for his car..
I know this was debated here a few months ago..so whaddaythink now?
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EV2DEMON
Moparts Member
Posts: 3276
From: LaPorte, IN
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-24-2002 11:58 PM
I don't think it matters. Jerry has had that car for sale for 3 years now. If someone was gonna pay that kind of money, it would be gone by know. To me, it is nothing more than a 70 R/T Charger.
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MOPAULY
Moparts Member
Posts: 5488
From: 742 Evergreen Terrace, Souderton, PA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-25-2002 12:00 AM
I thought Jerry got out of the business?
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Chuck West
Moparts Member
Posts: 984
From: St.Pete., FL USA
Registered: Jan 2002
posted 07-25-2002 12:05 AM
Jerry doesn't need the money. Im sure he does not loose any sleep whether he sells it or not.
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RUNCHARGER
Moparts Member
Posts: 1763
From: Abbotsford B.C.
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 07-25-2002 12:13 AM
I always thought the car was exactly as the article stated. I kind of enjoyed reading that I was right. I don't know what Jeunneman has into the car, but imagine if someone had paid him the big bucks for it!
Sheldon
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badgtx
Moparts Member
Posts: 2699
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 07-25-2002 12:17 AM
Finally the truth comes out about a bullshit story that has been told for years. Thanks Rob! As usual MCG does great investigative reporting. That`s two in a row, first the fake Cuda Barracuda, and now the one of none Daytona!
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Scott Smith
Moparts Member
Posts: 3977
From: P.O. Box 160278, Clearfield, Utah 84016
Registered: Mar 2002
posted 07-25-2002 12:18 AM
Yes, I was thinking about the previous Pilot 383 Barracuda convertible story the entire time I was reading it! That 70 Daytona (dealer add on, whatever) is sure a pretty car! Plum crazy, sun roof, etc. I'd deffinately be proud to own it! But not for 250K!
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69sixV2Bee
Moparts Member
Posts: 1877
From: Egg Harbor, NJ USA
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-25-2002 12:24 AM
Read the article. Although its not factory built, its a dealer put together and as close as you'll get to the real thing I guess. It ain't worth no $250,000. I'd buy two real birds and have money left over.
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badgtx
Moparts Member
Posts: 2699
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 07-25-2002 12:39 AM
Exactly! It never was built by the factory and so it is not one of three built and the only one known to survive. It was a dealer job and that puts a big dent in what the owner wants to sell it for in all the ads I`ve seen on it. I love the car, but not at the current asking price. I wish that Chrysler would have built those in 70 as I really like those door scoops.
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442w30
Moparts Member
Posts: 722
From: South Beach
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-25-2002 12:46 AM
I thought the article was very interesting and well-done. However, to equate the fake 'Cuda article as similar investigative reporting is pushing it a bit. I don't really know how I feel, but my impression is that they did not handle themselves too well with that issue.
The story of Galen and the pink ragtop also was interesting.
The GSS Dart had a major gaffe. The 383 was not introduced mid-year 1968 and allowed for the possibility of the 440, as the article stated. I'm sure most A-body people know the 383 was available on the GT in 1967 ( = GTS).
It was nice to receive my mag on time, though.
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gtxmonte
Moparts Member
Posts: 1892
From: Trinity, AL. USA
Registered: Oct 2000
posted 07-25-2002 01:01 AM
What these cars are "worth" is up to whatever someone will pay. IMHO, there is not a muscle car out there of ANY kind worth 1/4 mil. I know HEMI Cuda converts and such trade hands for this kind of scratch, but are they worth it, not to me. It continually amazes me what people will pay for these cars and then lock them away, afraid to let them outside because they are "worth" too much to be driven. No matter what kind of car it is, it is still just a pile of parts and can be fixed.
Monte Smith
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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2141
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-25-2002 03:10 AM
The story was interesting but I would'nt pay anywhere near that either if it was real. But to each there own.
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4speeds4me
Moparts Member
Posts: 3593
From: Sicamous, B.C., CANADA
Registered: Sep 2001
posted 07-25-2002 04:06 AM
In some ways, I've always felt the Charger Daytona should have been a 70 anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong, but did they not use 70 fenders for the 69 Daytonas? As much as I am not a fan of the 70 door scopps, somehow they look like they belong on a Daytona...
My .02...
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Blakcharger440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1367
From: Wichita, Kansas
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 07-25-2002 07:15 AM
I had been up to Hays Kansas a zillion times to look at that 70 Daytona and drool all over it. Although I suspected that it was not factory I still liked it. I think the investigative work of MCG is great for the hobby. Now the 70 Daytona myth is put to rest there were none made and the car is a fraud.
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TX9hemi
Moparts Member
Posts: 1293
From: Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-25-2002 08:42 AM
I think everybody's spider senses told them that the car just couldn't be legit. If it was, the car would have likely sold fairly easily for a 1/4mil, to some heavy-hitter. That photo of the green car in '69 really makes you wonder though...
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MOPARHOUND!
Moparts Member
Posts: 290
From: EMERALD CITY, KS (Toto says Hi!)
Registered: Feb 2002
Here are some pics...
And a link to the For Sale ad...
http://www.cars-on-line.com/70daytona2977.htmlA great in-depth article on the Purple '70 Daytona and more pic's at this link...
http://wwnboa.org/70csed.htm====================================
rhinodart
Moparts Member
Posts: 552
From: Round Lake Beach, IL
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-25-2002 09:15 AM
I almost cringed when I read the story of the GSS. I went out to the Spring Fling and went over the car extensively for the owner. There have been so many stories written about how Mr. Norm showed Chrysler how the 383 would fit into the '67 Dart and Chrysler started making them in late '67 that you think journalists would get it right by now. It does not take a lot to talk to experts before a story is written.
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jeff968
Moparts Member
Posts: 935
From: Connecticut
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 07-25-2002 09:15 AM
I pick up MCG occasionally and just subcribed. That was my first issue. It was an excellent article on the 70 Daytona. The writer did a lot of work finding all that information. Interesting read. However, I was disappointed seeing the 70 Challenger R/T 340 clone feature. I'm not a clone fan and I haven't seen them featured in MCG before.
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onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-25-2002 09:17 AM
OK, just had to put my two cents in. I am not trying to take anything away from MCG and their awesome reporting but I saw Jerry's car ten years ago and after carefully studying the documentation Jerry displays with the car, it certainly don't take a master's in Mopar History to make the determination that MCG just revealed in their latest issue. The dealer invoice CLEARLY shows what came on the car from the factory and what was added by the dealer. As for the car being a FRAUD, that was a low blow. No, the car was not FACTORY built but it is by no means worthless. If that is the case, then one would have to call a Mr. Norm's car a fraud too then wouldnt they? And what would that mean for Yenko Camaros? And then what about all the Baldwin-Motion Performance cars? See what I am saying? Yes, $250K is out there in the upper atmosphere but this IS a very significant car. Think about it.
John
OneBadSuperbird
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Beep Beep Dave
Moparts Member
Posts: 1698
From: Brantford, Ontario.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-25-2002 09:46 AM
I agree with Onebadsuperbird.
None of the original 69 Daytonas were "factory" either...I really like MCG, but the article was far from conclusive...they have one guy who doesn't really remember seeing the green car...a head honcho who doesn't recall...do you think he might have had a million other things on his mind since 1970. The word of a celebrity watcher that didn't see the car 30+ years ago.
What if the green car shows up...is that one not "factory" either???
C'mon guys don't be so quick to jump off the bandwagon...the article was far from conclusive...the article never proved who did the conversion....if a zone rep had Creative Industries toss together the 70 purple car, it is much a Daytona as the 69's???
The article was a good start opening your mind to a new theory but nothing has really changed, the same paperwork still exists for the purple car for all to see as it has for the last 30 years...if they proved that was faked then you would have something!!!
Plus you still have a pic of the green car with a factory dealer plate(and what's up with that front bumper) 1 0f 1, 1 of 2, 1 of 3??? Its not like it is an airbrushed 1971 T/A, is it?
I like MCG to find out who makes the illegal VIN tags and bring them down, that would be good for the hobby.
Dave
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442w30
Moparts Member
Posts: 722
From: South Beach
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-25-2002 10:41 AM
I did not get the impression that they were saying the car was a fraud. I thought they just were investigating the history of a group of cars with an obscure history.
To me, this Charger is like a Demon GSS (is that what they were called?) with a supercharger. It's a dealer-mod'd car with some pedigree, so that pedigree adds some value. I don't think the car is worth as much as a stock '70 Hemi Charger though, or at least I would not pay more than that.
Also, how can a 340 R/T be a clone if none were ever made to begin with?
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paris401
Moparts Member
Posts: 1422
From: new york,new york,usa
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 07-25-2002 10:59 AM
rhinodart... just interested in what your thoughts are on the dart after seeing it... i know the car from new york...
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Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-25-2002 11:13 AM
There has always been some underlying doubt about the purple 70 Daytona. I think that is why it has not sold, despite the high asking price.
I do have some letters and correspondence from the original owner in 1978, but have never seen the paperwork that says "assemble at dealer". Previously, I had believed the story that it was a Creative assembled car. If the MCG article is factual, it certainly is damaging to the car. But the 250K asking price has been completely out to lunch from day one anyway.
For years I have felt the 70 Daytona(s)were never "real" Daytonas. There is no special rear window. They are not part of the homologation story that the 500 real cars are.
It's an interesting car, with an interesting history and chain of ownership. But it's always been a nicely optioned '70 Charger with a nose and a wing. Would I love to own it? You bet. Would I trade my '69 Daytona to get it? No way. (I would have loved to have bought it at the 1978 asking price of $6500 though!)
Now if that green car were to surface, now THAT would be interesting!
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Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-25-2002 11:28 AM
4-speeds... The reason the Daytonas are 1969 models are because Chrysler was getting their butts kicked on the big tracks, and the Charger 500 was not good enough. They could not afford to wait for 1970, and would have had to make more cars for '70 anyway.
The 1970 Charger fenders and 1970 type hood happened to be the items in the parts bin that mated up best to a nose - so they used them.
Beep Beep Dave - As far as the '69 Daytonas not being "factory", I disagree. Creative Industries was the factory authorized contractor that finished the 1969 cars (with a paper trail). The 70 Daytonas, who knows?
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WingCars
Moparts Member
Posts: 1342
From: Cherry Hill New Jersey USA
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-25-2002 12:20 PM
I had bought a muscle cars magazine in 1985.Featuring the 70 purple Daytona on the cover.I had instant doubts even back then.After reading no metal nosecone no a pillars no flush backwindow and with this seen info and whats come out recently no XX vin etc.And with all the points made in mcg article.Unless this car was owned by Bob Mc Curry himself or titled in a Ex Chryslers personals name .As if we were led to believe these cars were made for the executives.Then I dont count a dealer stock car or ordered and dealer ordered parts to be a genuine Hamtramk built Daytonas as I come to know them.But still optimistic as there was talk of a 70 Daytona Red or Orange one found.But no talk of its origins being factory built or not.As no more mention has been made.What about the green one on the aero warriors site has that car ever been found.If it turns out to be a actual EX Bob Mc Curry personal Daytona.Owned by the guy that gave the daytona program the green light.This car has alot more of rights to be called a factory Daytona.Then a dealership assembled one XS29V180849.I also came to understand the A11 code defined as a XX special Daytona with the standard conversions as a daytona would recieve.As this car from what I read has the A11 code.Does it have it on fender tag and buildsheet.As the paperwork I see it shows A11 on it .But includes in the A11 outlines a special order vinyl top.I dont recall this as part of the Daytona special modifications for A11 designation.Wasnt a vinyl top just A ordered or not ordered V1X example (V1X) black vinyl top code.
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TX9hemi
Moparts Member
Posts: 1293
From: Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-25-2002 02:14 PM
I dunno...I don't put a lot of stock in dealer-conversions, except for the Grand Spaulding stuff, which has broad acceptance in the hobby. I prefer the 'more factory' 69 m-code GTS' to the 68 for that very reason. If my local dealership cobbled up a 70 Daytona for somebody, it would be an interesting piece, but with only marginal value as a wing car IMO. BTW, nobody is calling the Purple car a 'fake', just a 'conversion'. IMO any car that doesn't have some level of factory involvement(and these cars don't appear to) should never be referred to as '1 of 3', or be legitimised as a 'real' car.
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RUNCHARGER
Moparts Member
Posts: 1763
From: Abbotsford B.C.
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 07-25-2002 03:27 PM
I agree with Andy: The Grand Spaulding stuff is special. But if my local dealer gets in a Dodge Pickup, stuffs a Hemi in it, well thats nice, just don't expect me to pay $250K for it 30 years from now.
Of course if someone else wants to pay $250k for that Hemi Pickup 30 years from now, well it isn't my money they're spending.
Sheldon
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onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
OK I had to dig deep to find the footage but here's four different pictures of the dealer invoice that Jerry has always displayed the car. It's not real easy to get a good freeze frame shot off the TV screen but I am hoping that these pics should be pretty readable.
John
OneBadSuperbird
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Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-25-2002 09:16 PM
In a nutshell , it goes like this.
There was a correct protocal you had to
go through, as a dealer, to order a 70
Daytona . Only 3 dealers crossed their
T's and dotted their I's so to speak, and
odered "sanctioned" Daytonas. There IS a paper trail on the 3 "Chrysler sanctioned"
1970 Daytonas. All three cars VINs, VONs,
destinations , etc. are on record, and the
owner of the Red car is VERY upset about the
MCG article. The Blue car is M.I.A. although
believed to be in So. California . The purple
car is the only one the general public knows about.All 3 cars have "A11" (that's your areo
code, same as 69 500 and Daytona) showing up on a shipping manifest from 1970 St. Louis.
All 3 cars are R/T SE 440 six pack, 4-speed,
PW, and sunroof . By Chryslers rules, that was the suggested "platform" from which to base your 70 Daytona.They were built at St. Louis (no Hamtramck 1970 Chargers), and the selling dealers installed the wings, nose etc. The 3 cars were not built together,
but instead over a period of several months.
I have probably spilled more beans than I should have on this subject, But those are
facts, and that's all the info I am willing
to say on the subject at this time.
Greg
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MOPARHOUND!
Moparts Member
Posts: 290
From: EMERALD CITY, KS (Toto says Hi!)
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 07-25-2002 10:15 PM
WOW! Let's see... red, purple, blue, and green. Do we have 4 '70 Daytonas?
Thanks for sharing Greg. That took guts.
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TX9hemi
Moparts Member
Posts: 1293
From: Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-25-2002 10:24 PM
Greg, with all due respect, why not tell us everything you know about these cars? Your A11 info is interesting to say the least, as that gives the cars some factory lineage.
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Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-25-2002 10:50 PM
Most Everything I have on file for these cars
came directly from the owner of the Red car.
Basically, from one "Mopar historian" to another, and was not intended to be made
public. The owner of the Red car has done
EXTENSIVE research on this subject and I respect his privacy in this matter,
but felt a need to share some of the info
to set the record straight about the cars
legitimacy. As far as the green car, I believe it was something put together by Chrysler to show what they could look like
(kind of like a pilot) and is not considered
to be one of the 3 legit cars that have the
correct "paper trail" .
Greg
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d100
Moparts Member
Posts: 907
From: pittsburg, ks.
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-25-2002 11:20 PM
whats the big deal about being made public, this is why i'm getting sick of this hobby. everyone acts like its some top secret government crap, for christs sakes ITS A CAR!!
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badgtx
Moparts Member
Posts: 2699
From:
Registered: Jan 2001
posted 07-25-2002 11:46 PM
The big deal is that one is for sale for dumb money as one of 3 1970 Daytonas, which never existed as we were led to believe all these years. I commend MCG for exposing this info as it may save someone from being duped into believing that these cars were real. I think the reason that the guy who owns the red car (which no one seems to have known about) is mad is because now the truth is published for everyone to see and the value of his investment just had the rug pulled out from under it. It boils down to those cars being factory 1970 440-6 Chargers with left over 69 parts being bolted on by someone other than the factory. Rob stated the facts and only the facts, which seem undisputable to me. In my opinion, a mint 1970 Charger with the 440-6 is worth say 30-35k add on the Daytona parts add 20k and you have a converted Charger that may be worth 50-75K tops. Who in their right mind now knowing the published facts would pay the ridiculous asking price for Charger with a Daytona package added by who knows who when you could buy a real Daytona for less! If in fact the Green car was a factory promo as someone has suggested that car may be the only real car but that also was explained in Robs article as a farce...I guess the paper trail cars could be cloned as it would now seem much easier to duplicate that paperwork than say a buildsheet, right? We might all see more 70 Daytonas in the future than the four now known.
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d100
Moparts Member
Posts: 907
From: pittsburg, ks.
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-25-2002 11:55 PM
i understand that, but all the hush hush about the "paper trail" and "whats on file" is a little ridiculous. if you know something, tell it. i think it just makes some people feel like someone, when they know something others dont.
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Moparts Member
Posts: 528
From: Bradenton, Fl
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 07-26-2002 01:06 AM
Aside from the purple one, the other two pics on the
http://aerowarriors.com/cgi-bin/af.cgi?rf=http://aerowarriors.com/70dcd.html " web site show seamless body work. Factory do that?
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onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 01:32 AM
OK, now I don't know what to believe. Is this mystery EVER gonna be solved??? Why is the owner of the "red" car being so secretive? I never understood people like that. If you're too paranoid to own a rare old car and drive or show/display it for others to enjoy, why even own it???
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rrsbdh
Moparts Member
Posts: 2141
From: Decatur Alabama
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-26-2002 02:24 AM
I guess that puts these cars somewhere in the middle value area between a Real Daytona and a 70 RT.. If The parts being installed by a dealer like Mr.Norms is true. But I can understand too why someone would'nt want to be hounded by the rest of the world wanting his car too. Maybe the story carrying a little less value to the car will in fact ease somebody's mine like that by stoping many persistent unwanted buyers. Lets face some people just don't want to sell their cars. Or maybe hes not sure of the paper trail and does'nt want to be showing something he's not completely sure of.
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TrooperDave
Moparts Member
Posts: 233
From: Dulles, Va. USA
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-26-2002 07:53 AM
like leading sheep to the slaughter...if i belived every thing i read i'd be...if the cars are there, do you think 3 strangers put their collective heads together to dupe the general public and kept quiet about it for 32 yrs...sorry, that dog won't hunt.
my $ .02
dave
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Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-26-2002 11:49 AM
It would be nice to see the owner of the red 70 Daytona come out of the closet and prove the provenance of his car with the documentation acculmulated. I would think he would be eager to do so given the 30 plus years of cloudy history on these cars.
What is the big secret?
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WingCars
Moparts Member
Posts: 1342
From: Cherry Hill New Jersey USA
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-26-2002 12:11 PM
So I still wonder if there is a paper trail as we recently now hear of .That links in house Chrysler with building or ordering the 70 Daytonas dealers.Like factory letterhead correspondances and job number invoices.As we heard of it and not privy to it. Or if Galen has been fortunate enough to have seen such documentation.And whats his take on these cars.And as the question above asks and I agree .Wouldnt the owners of such a rarity want the facts laid out.And can delete addresses and serial numbers to protect privacy .So they can substaniate a pedigree that will add dollars to future sales of these cars if there are what they are.Has Galen accepted these as true Daytonas .Might it be possible maybe the green car or the others was factory built to be a public relations showcar .Like The Diamante or RTS Show car caravan.????.The answers are in the paperwork.QUOTE from the words of Jerry Maguire SHOW ME THE
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johnrtse
Moparts Member
Posts: 1518
From: New Ulm, MN USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-26-2002 12:28 PM
As Doug has already said above, NOW would be the time for the owner of the red car, and anyone else who has genuine documentation of these cars, to come forward and PROVE their legitimacy.
Until all the info is out in the open, these 70 Daytonas are just Chargers with dealer add-ons .
I also tend to agree that the green car might be the only legit car, if it was a factory styling excercise. Even though it may have been customized by some outside shop, you have to remember that the RTS showcars were also done by other custom shops (not just Creative).
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JohnRR
Moparts
Posts: 10627
From: Ma.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-26-2002 12:45 PM
well now that some hush hush top secert info about a possible car ... i can neither confirm nor deny ... has been leaked , on the internet , no less ... the long black limo will be pulling up to all thehouses of those that have viewed this thread and dispose of any and all knowledge we have ... do the red flashy thing
gee greg , got any more top secert info we aren't supposed to know of ???
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onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 12:52 PM
No, Peelerboy, I still ain't left for Ubly yet and yes, Big Dan will once again be racing the Bird while I do the video work of the race. I think Dan is already up there and has our campsite set up. I am gonna go either tonite or tomorrow morning.
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WingCars
Moparts Member
Posts: 1342
From: Cherry Hill New Jersey USA
Registered: Aug 2001
posted 07-26-2002 01:12 PM
Paperwork is the the key to support the 70 Daytonas heritage if any is out there.I like the John RR Moderator comment about any more Top Secret Papers.I have already subbmitted this document to a wing club newsletter.But If I was claiming in Sept 1967 The Now known B Body Dodge Daytona name was going to be used on a A Body Dart.This would seem absurd and beyond belief .But Im quote from this document dated Sept 22 1967 To Chuck Bertrand to Frank Wylie subject DART CUSTOM CARS.Can we call one of these the Daytona? We own the name,but will lose it if we don,t use it soon.That would be a pity as GM is anxious to get a hold of it.Please let me know.cc Connell,James.Source of this document came to me by once Moparts Member RapidDuster
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Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 01:15 PM
Sorry guys, I shouldn't have posted what I
did. Please resume your normal daily activities, and give no more thought to
the 1970 A11 cars. Thanks for the childish,
closed-minded outlook on this matter.
For this reason , joe public WILL NOT be
getting any more facts on the subject.
I will say The owner of the Red car is not in this for the money . He's owned the car for years, the car is in need of total resto.
He's never had any desire to sell the car.
The owner is VERY knowledgable , but is
a private person, and I respect that .
He has done alot of research on the 1970
A11 cars, and has, in his possesion , FACTORY
documentation on all 3 cars .
Does anybody who has posted to this topic have acess to the 1970 St. Louis shipping manifest? I know a man that does. Has anybody
out there have a window sticker to one of these cars, along with the value label that
states "Daytona by Dodge" across the top,
with the cars VIN, VON, and $ 710 added to
the cost of the car for the A11 conversion package? I know a guy that has his. How
about you guys ? Anybody got a 1970 warranty
transfer document that denied transfer of
warranty to next owner at 26,000 miles because "Daytona coverage 12/12,000 only".
All 3 VINS, VONS, are known , and there will
be no faking a 70 Daytona.
I've said waay too much , and will probably
delete this post pretty soon . You guys just
ticked me off , that's all.
File this one with the 1966 Coronet 4 door Hemis, 1972 6 pack / 6bbl cars , and the 1
1970 300 Hurst convertible, oh yeah, and the
FK5 Superbirds.
And keep this in mind, Galen (who denies the 70 A11 cars are legit) is not the "know it all' that joe public thinks. There are
other knowledgable people out there (for example I've been doing it for 15 years,
30-50 hours per week).
OK, I'm done.
Greg
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GY3 'Cuda
Moparts Member
Posts: 5592
From: Dorothyville, Kansas.
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 07-26-2002 01:16 PM
I, for one, can respect the fact that the owner of the red car wishes to remain anonymous.
Think about this for a second, folks.
You own a very rare car to begin with even if it is only considered a 440-6 '70 Charger with add ons.
How would you like every trust fund baby with a wad of cash beating on your door wanting to buy the car after it was made public that you own it?!
It seems like there are some real heavy hitters out there today that will stop at nothing to own the rarest of the rare.
There are also quite a few rare cars out there that "Galen the Guru" doesn't know about and their owners don't want him knowing about! (for their own, personal reasons, I'm sure )
All I know is, I was a little dissappointed at the lack of research that the "Guru" did before he penned the article. It seems that with all of his connections, he should have had a lot more information than he does. Something that Jerry Junemann has displayed with the car for years does not, in my mind, qualify as groundbreaking investigative work!
Perhaps he was trying to "out" the owner of the red car and force him to divulge more of his papwerwork by writing the article in the first place?!? Just speculating here folks...
Greg:
I for one appreciate all the knowledge you've displayed on this as well as other topics in our hobby. Please don't let a few people discourage you from posting the very informative stuff you post.
====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 01:25 PM
And one more thing, I agree $ 250,000
is way too much money for a 1970 A11 car.
That's Jerry Juneman. Personally , I think
the price should parallel a 6 barrel Superbird ( around $ 75,000). Just know this,
at the least, they are all 3 1970 Charger
R/T SE 440 six Pack , 4-speed dana, power windows, sunroof cars . Ad in the fact that
all the cars came up on the St. Louis
shipping manifest with the A11(Daytona package) notation
in the "other" field, and the other docs that
go along with these rare cars, and I think
you will have to agree, that is worth a few
dollars more(above a standard Charger).
Again, Money is certainly not the motive in me arguing these cars existance. I am just
making a legitimate attempt to educate the public. If you don't want to hear it, I'll
shut up.
Greg
======================================
MOPAULY
Moparts Member
Posts: 5488
From: 742 Evergreen Terrace, Souderton, PA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-26-2002 01:26 PM
Well hey Greg, thanks for posting the info. These car really don't intrest me much either way, but it was neat to hear another side of the story.
I imagine that the perception would change if the paperwork/facts are ever brought to the surface.
=====================================
paris401
Moparts Member
Posts: 1422
From: new york,new york,usa
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 07-26-2002 01:28 PM
greg ward.. u should have stopped your last 'rant' (for lack of a better word)after the 3rd line..
b u t since u did continue, your comment abt 'the guru' certainly hit the nail on the head
=====================================
RUNCHARGER
Moparts Member
Posts: 1763
From: Abbotsford B.C.
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 07-26-2002 01:41 PM
I see no problem: If the fellow with the red car has the paperwork, thats great, he can prove the cars legit if he ever wants to sell it. I personally would much prefer a 69 Daytona with the proper window plug, so I won't be buying a 70 even if they are real. If the fellow with the red one wants to remain private, well I can sure understand that, theres a lot of Dickheads out there in the hobby (every other hobby too).
Sheldon
=====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 01:54 PM
See, that's EXACTLY why I don't like to
publish info . By the way, have you EVER
seen anything written by Govier that did not have errors ? I haven't.
Greg
===================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 02:00 PM
Paris401 , I need for you to elaborate
on your last comment, not quite sure
what you are suggesting. Are you saying
you have more info on file on than I
do on the 1970 Daytona cars ?
Boy, I'd sure like to hear it.
OK, Show me what you got!
Greg
=====================================
The KISSAlien
Moparts Member
Posts: 512
From: Farmington, CT, USA
Registered: Jan 2002
posted 07-26-2002 02:06 PM
Greg,
Most of us really appreciate your information. But I have a couple of questions/points for you.
1) I'm not sure why you are annoyed with this thread. You posted some information on a topic that people are interested in. I know that you now regret that, but you then posted a few more times. What part are you objecting to? You offered some info and people are understandably curious. Is it the way they are going about it? Am I making it worse by asking?
2) This I really don't understand AT ALL!
The owner of the red car supposedly has all this documentation about these cars. However he isn't willing to come forward with it. That's cool. I don't have a problems with that. BUT THEN he is pissed because this article comes out??? Why would he care? He is keeping his car and his info to himself, but then he cares what other people say about it? I'm sorry, but he can't have it both ways. he has decided to take his ball and go home so he should have no more interest in the outcome of the game.
Just one man's opinion.
=====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 02:20 PM
I'll admit when I first heard about the
1970 Daytonas about 6 years ago, my first
thought was XX VINS, Areo back glass, A pillar trim, you know, the usuall stuff.
Well, that doesn't apply with the 70 Daytona.
You have to clear your minds, take a deep breath, and understand that , as I previously
mentioned, the 1970 Daytona was a "Dealer"
conversion . But now, and read this carefully, Chrysler put out a bulliten on this, outlying how the dealer shold order
their "platform" from which to build their
Daytona. That's why they are optioned the same(except color). The parts were ordered under an "SPO" kit.
The Blue car was built in December 69, The
Purple one in January, and the Red one in March. Although other dealers probably ordered parts and built their own Daytonas,
only 3 dealers actually went through the correct protocal to order their Chrysler
endorsed "platform' Daytona from which to
ad the Daytona parts. Therefore , only 3
"A11" cars show up for the entire 1970 model
year on the St. Louis shipping manifest.
Keep in mind, these 3 cars were ordered ,for the specific reason of becoming converted, and that's why the paper trail exists on these 3 units. What more can I say!?
Greg
=====================================
442w30
Moparts Member
Posts: 722
From: South Beach
Registered: Apr 2002
posted 07-26-2002 02:23 PM
I'd like to quote Rodney King, but Bob Dylan is more interesting. What song should I use.
I for one am appreciative of Greg's posts. I imagine that he's torn between telling us about his experiences over the past 15+ years and maintaining the red owner's privacy in some manner. If Greg truly didn't want us to know the truth, I am sure he'd keep mum. Let's at least give him the credit for educating those of us who like this stuff.
====================================
onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 02:23 PM
Hey, this is getting really interesting. I can kinda sorta see where the guy with the "red car" is coming from but then again, if people hound ya to buy your car, all's ya gotta do is say NO. I have had one of my Superbirds for 22 years and living on a main road, have had all kinds of folks come up to the door and ask if I want to sell "that old Plymouth". I just smile and say "nope". I agree totally that the owner of the "red car" has absolutely NO reason to gripe about the MCG article if he ain't willing to lay his cards down on the table. I'll even stir the broth a little more and say that until he comes forward with his "documentation", that there were NO '70 Daytonas authorized or built by Chrysler. Bear in mind that I am NOT saying that these three cars were not built but that I am saying that until REAL documentation surfaces, there is nothing to validate anything.
John
OneBadSuperbird
=====================================
Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-26-2002 02:34 PM
Greg (and this is not with one drop of hostility):
Thank you for your posts and the information.
I don't care or need to know who owns the car. I can respect his desire for privacy.
But if there is factory paperwork, let's see to what extent it is. This can be done third party.
Is there a memo from Chrysler detailing how to order a 1970 Daytona?
Let's see the build sheet.
Let's see the fender tag.
I would love to conclusively say that there ARE real 1970 Daytonas.
Hopefully one day soon, the information will be made available and put the legend to rest. Please urge the owner to pass along the documentation. The rest of the winged car world wants to know.
Doug Schellinger
Daytona-Superbird Club
===================================
EV2DEMON
Moparts Member
Posts: 3276
From: LaPorte, IN
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 02:36 PM
Good info Greg. Thanks for sharing it. You can't really blame people in this hobby for being interested in a subject like this. Hopefully the owner of the red car will not be upset. I don't see why he would be. His privacy was maintained, while at the same time, a lot of people have a better understanding of the story behind these cars.
===================================
RUNCHARGER
Moparts Member
Posts: 1763
From: Abbotsford B.C.
Registered: Nov 2000
posted 07-26-2002 02:47 PM
I can see why the fellow with the red car would keep quiet. He lays everything out, shows what he has, then Joe Blow decides "hey why not build my own and do up some paperwork for it". As for maintaining a low profile, I don't need guys showing up at my door wondering if the old Plymouth is for sale, then coming back at 2 AM, and taking what I don't want to sell.
Sheldon
====================================
Paul
Moparts Member
Posts: 2263
From: Port Huron, MI area
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 07-26-2002 03:03 PM
Hey Greg, tell us more about these shipping manifests. What other info is on that report, is that what Galen bases his "options and Accesories" reports on? And it lists all the VIN numbers of cars shipped? If that is the case, that would be a huge tool to prevent fraud in hobby like what happened to the guy from Canada with the 71 Barracude 'vert that becam a 383 'Cuda. Does Chrysler still have these reports?
====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 03:15 PM
To answer the question about why the
owner of the red car is upset about the
article , it's very simple. He knows what
he has , he has his documentation, and his
car is genuine. Now, a national publication,
that didn't do much research, with the help
of ol Galen , says no way, no day, no can do.
Let's look at it this way, lets say Dan Rather on the 6 o clock news just said your
wife is a two bit whore, and you know that is
not true. You might be upset , right?
Although the Red car is not for sale, never
been for sale, and is a total project car ,
the owner can still have pride in what he ownes , can't he? Of course he is upset that
now a national publication says what he has
doesn't exist. He knows it does, and that's why it is upsetting.
This is kind of like those 3 1970 Torino
King Cobras. If you owned one of those, and
all of a sudden Muscle car Review says, 'Ol
Fordo Groviereo says no way , they never made
any, you'd be mad too.
Greg
===================================
gd9704
Moparts Member
Posts: 905
From: Willoughby Hills, OH USA
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 03:23 PM
I'd punch Dan Rather in the nose, run Galen and the writer of the offending article over with the 70 'bird, and then go have a nice glass of Scotch...
Problem solved!
=====================================
The KISSAlien
Moparts Member
Posts: 512
From: Farmington, CT, USA
Registered: Jan 2002
posted 07-26-2002 03:28 PM
Personally, I wouldn't have sat on the information if I owned it. Especially if I was concerned what others said about it. (If I got a copy from someone else who owned the rights to it then I would keep it to myself.) But if I chose to keep it secret, and wasn't selling my car then I wouldn't give a rat's ass what MCG says. God knows they are wrong A LOT. I'm no expert and even I know that. This guy should contact them about printing a retraction if he can prove it.
I'm with a few others on this list. I don't get all this Men in Black secrecy that seems to be endemic to Mopars though.
What's this button for? CLICK
What's this button for? CLICK
What's this button for? CLICK
What's this ...
======================================
onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 03:39 PM
Hey RUNCHARGER, yes the possibiity does exist of someone coming back at 2 in the morning but is it THAT probable? And Greg, like I said, the owner of the "red car" has absolutely NO room to complain at all if he is not willing to come out of his litte shell and prove to the rest of the Wing Car and Mopar world that by God, these things really do exist. As devoted Wing Car and Mopar fans, we deserve to know if these things did or didn't exist. What makes the owner of the "red car" think that he is almighty and that his little "secret" is worth keeping a secret? It actually sounds to me like the owner of the "red car" is one of them goofball paranoid hillbillies who has a bunch of cars sitting rotting somewhere that he says he is going to do something one day with and that one day will never come. What favor are these people doing by hoarding these rare cars and letting them sit and rot? Is this really healthy for the old car hobby in general? These cars were made to be driven and the fact that they are now worth significant amounts of money is not near reason enough to keep them secretly hidden away. Being a very proud owner of two Superbirds, I am not afraid to take the Superbird that I have owned for 22 years out on the streets and also to actively bracket race it. The enjoyment I have gotten out of the old Superbird in the last 22 years by cruising it, showing it and racing it has to be FAR greater than anything the owner of the "red car" has ever done with his "rough" project car. Give it a rest, come out of your little shell and sell the car to someone who will appreciate it and be proud to restore it and show it. I am sure Bob and Sharon Malcom would be most interested in it. Sorry to carry on and sound mean but the owner of the "red car" ain't worthy of it.
John
OneBadSuperbird
====================================
A990
Moparts Member
Posts: 1755
From: Sacramento California USA.
kened@yahoo.comRegistered: May 2000
posted 07-26-2002 03:48 PM
I don't really care about the car.
What bothers me is Mr Red has a papertrail that will educate people about something that happened in 1969 or 1970. So because he has a problem, he wont share it. The document may be his to keep, but that information isn't for any one person to hoard, it belongs to everyone.
As to the scribe in Wisconsin, the major players in this hobby are giving him an awful lot of power, and I question his motives.
One last thing for Mr. Red-
He may like sitting on his car, and all that, but if he ain't taking care of it, will it soon look like this 'cuda 'vert?
Or would being in this stage means its time to sell?
*edit*
Onebad, it looks like we posted at the same time
======================================
onebadsuperbird
Moparts Member
Posts: 1031
From: Beverly Hills, MI 48025
Registered: Jun 2001
posted 07-26-2002 03:57 PM
A990, yeah we did! And it looks like we were on the same track too! I agree with ya all the way!
John
OneBadSuperbird
===================================
Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-26-2002 04:06 PM
"This is kind of like those 3 1970 Torino
King Cobras. If you owned one of those, and
all of a sudden Muscle car Review says, 'Ol
Fordo Groviereo says no way , they never made
any, you'd be mad too."
Greg
Greg, you are correct. The whole King Cobra situation is another can of worms depending on who you talk to. It is pretty clear there are a couple of "factory" cars delivered to Bud Moore on MSO, and another one with no MSO, but a Holman & Moody VIN. In addition, there are folks now stating there is a Mercury version out there - but others in the know feel it only existed in clay.
====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 04:08 PM
The owner of the red car is no hillbillie.
Heck, he lives on the other side of the country . He doesn't "hoard" cars and
hasn't restored the red car because, quite
frankly, It's not cheap to do a correct resto
and the car deserves to be done right.
He's just a common man, not some big CEO ,
and not a nutcase "cars in barns" guy either.
He is VERY knowledgable about Mopars, has thousands of cars on file (alot more than me,
I am sure)and what he knows would put Galen
to shame, but that's another story.
As far as selling the car to someone else
who would restore it, It ain't going to happen. First off, in order to "respect' and
fully appreciate the car, you must be knowledgeable about what it is. In my opinion, the owner is the the most knowledgable person out there on this subject. He's done his homework .
Nobody else understands what the car is,
and therefore could not possibly respect ,
or "love" the car more than it's current
owner. Give the man a break, when he gets his
finances in order, he will restore it.
He's already got his rotessire ready, and it may even be on the rotessire right now, I
don't know. It's just going to take alot of time and alot of money. Trust me, the car is
in good hands, and not in a "speculators"
hands. Preserving Mopar history is the motivation here, not money.
I think the owner wants to wait till his car
is done before he "comes out of the closet"
so to speak. That's understandable.
Can't you people respect that ?
If Galen is such a hot shot Mopar guru,
why can't he do the same legwork my friend did to uncover the facts ?
Greg
===================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 04:20 PM
One last thing , the "paper trail" on
the 3 Daytonas wasn't just handed to my
friend. He had to do alot of work to
find all this info. It took a strong passion
and desire to learn all the facts, and he went that extra mile. No reason Galen can't
earn his dinner by doing the same.
Greg
==================================
dr dodge
Moparts Member
Posts: 780
From: houston, tx
Registered: Jun 2002
posted 07-26-2002 04:20 PM
privacy is great
its everyones right to not be hounded to sell your car
its also your right to not sell it for whatever reason you have (even hillbilly's)
but knowledge is different
IMHO it is everyones responsiblity to preserve and share knowledge
because when you die all your knowledge that is not passed on dies, too.
that is the best thing about the internet
we can all share with each other, and in turn recieve 10 times in return (if you're open minded)
always pass the knowledge
dr dodge
=====================================
GY3 'Cuda
Moparts Member
Posts: 5592
From: Dorothyville, Kansas.
Registered: Dec 1999
posted 07-26-2002 04:21 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------
If Galen is such a hot shot Mopar guru,
why can't he do the same legwork my friend did to uncover the facts ?
---------------------------------------------
Why bother if you can write a monthly column in a national publication, ask readers to write in or give any information they have, and then use that information to pad your own bank account?
====================================
meepmeep69
Moparts Member
Posts: 592
From: Sunny California
Registered: Jun 2002
posted 07-26-2002 04:22 PM
Greg:
First of all, thanks for all your postings. A little information (or, a lot, in your case), is better than no information at all.
I can understand why Mr. Red. is upset about the article, but he really only has two choices: (1) ignore it and enjoy the 70 Daytona knowing full well that it is 100% legit, or (2) Mount an open campaign to bring the documented truth out about the cars.
If he wants to keep all the evidence to himself, while disappointing to those of us in the hobby, it is surely his right. He has, however, little grounds for offense at the article if he isn't willing to dispute it with his own material.
(By the way, I would be happy to write an opposing article using Mr. Red's documentation as the core of the proof, fully maintaining his anonymity. I have been published in the New York Times, in case he would consider it).
Meanwhile, I would like to add a comment about Galen Govier's business. This is not a comment about him as a person, as I do not know him from a can of paint. I would not be surprised if he has commented authoritatively on things where he was not correct. I guess that is my biggest problem with his business, and a lot of 'Guru' types have the same issues.
No one person, Galen or otherwise, is going to be as knowledgeable as the collective smarts of an interested community. Blame the Internet for that. Galen, or any other 'Guru' can claim that "All 70 Vitamin C Cudas used Dow paint #1502" or whatever. What will happen is someone will say that they got one that was a little different, and that the dealer/factory noted that Dow was out of pigment for a run and that they had to substitute some other manufacturer and that all the Vit C out of LA on such-and-such day were actually a little darker. Then people will start looking around and five or ten people will pop up and say "yep, so is mine!", some with documentation (maybe a dealer invoice showing a discount for factory error paint, or whatever).
My point is that no Guru, Galen included, can know everything about a subject. It kinda bugs me, though, that he does come off professionally as though his OPINIONS are 100 percent certifiable FACT, which they are not, and, by logic and by experience, cannot be. People then take his opinions and wave them around like they are gospel.
I have gotten better answers from this community than I could get from paying a Guru. That's it.
===================================
Doug Schellinger
Moparts Member
Posts: 220
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Oct 2001
posted 07-26-2002 04:30 PM
Food for thought - wouldn't the proper time for the world to validate a special car like the red 70 Daytona be BEFORE it is restored?
====================================
meepmeep69
Moparts Member
Posts: 592
From: Sunny California
Registered: Jun 2002
posted 07-26-2002 04:34 PM
Maybe the secretive Mr. Red has already done a painstaking documentation process, with pictures, tracings, measurements, video, etc. I for sure would do something like that before I restored a 1-of-a-kind (or 1-of-3) Mopar.
But...
...who knows?
===================================
A990
Moparts Member
Posts: 1755
From: Sacramento California USA.
kened@yahoo.comRegistered: May 2000
posted 07-26-2002 06:40 PM
I may see him tomorrow at the show/swap n grudge race at Sac Raceway. I don't think I've chatted with him before, but I seem to remember a 6 BBL 'bird at one of the shows earlier this year
-KG
=======================================
Blakcharger440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1367
From: Wichita, Kansas
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 07-26-2002 07:38 PM
I do not care about whether it is real or not. Its seems to me that any paperwork can be faked or manufactured. If these cars are real which i doubt that they are (just my opinion, not be construed as actual fact)then I seriously doubt they would have been "shrouded" in mystery for all these years like bigfoot. If I had the factory paperwork for one of the cars I would verify that they are real and make MCG eat their editorial words. I doubt that people would be beating down his door in order to get ahold of it (to me thats silly)yeah,maybe the occasional big bucks caller but that would probably be the extent of it (should be more worried about telemarketing) and there are just too many other neato cars out there. It seems the more they keep these cars a secret the more doubtful people become and when the real thing presents itself (if possible) then they will be sceptical about that too because what took ya so long to produce the paperwork? Just some thoughts to mull over. I guess the bottom line is just enjoy whatever car that ya own.
=======================================
Blakcharger440
Moparts Member
Posts: 1367
From: Wichita, Kansas
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 07-26-2002 07:40 PM
Very, good point Doug.
====================================
Greg Ward
Moparts Member
Posts: 705
From: Huntsville, Alabama, U.S.A.
Registered: Jan 2000
posted 07-26-2002 09:02 PM
Sorry I tried to argue the fact these cars
exist. You guys win. I give up.
While were at it , whatever car YOU have
in your garage doesn't exist either, untill
you lay out all your documentation right here
so that we can see exactly what you have.
I will need to see your full fender tag codes, buildsheets, window stickers, and a pencil rubbing of your body stampings before
any member on here has a legitimate car .
In other words, you ALL have bogus , phooney
cars until you prove otherwise to me .
Does that make sense ? That's exactly how
most of you sound to me. VERY childish.
Accept the fact that there are things in this
world that you are not knowledgeable about,
and are NOT qualified to comment about .
It's that simple. I can't "make" the owner
of the red car show the world all his paperwork.It's HIS paperwork for god sake.
You are not automatically given the right to
look at someones personal stuff. He is a private person , and has no desire to go through this BS. Imagine how much of a pain
in the ass it would be for him to put his
legitimate documentation on display for JOE
JACKASS to look at, knowing full well the average clown has already made up their minds
100 % that these cars are bogus. Sorry guys,
we don't need this BS !!!
Everyones behavior on this post is EXACTLY
the reason someone wouldn't want to come
forward with this info. It's like a damn witch trial !
If there are any big boys on this list with
proof that there are no "A11" cars on the
ST. Louis shipping manifest , then lets see it ! I'm willing to bet money there isn't a
damn soul on this board with a copy of the
documentations in questi
