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Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: can.al] #1594527 03/18/14 11:03 PM 03/18/14 11:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 464 KY Telvis mopar
Telvis mopar Joined: Sep 2013 Posts: 464 KY	I had a similar problem with a rear disc conversion. I have a pressure bleeder and ran about 2 qts. of brake fluid trying to get the pedal firm with no luck. I worked for a week every night trying to figure out why the brakes wouldn't pump up. as a last ditch measure I took off the calipers and put the bleeders at 12 o clock (they were at about 10 o clock on the brackets). I bled them again in that position and it did the trick. I would have bet a months pay that they were fully bled with my pressure bleeder but there was air trapped in the system. I think someone already said it could be the issue. I would give it a shot before replacing anything. FYI... Make sure you put a clamp on the piston before you bleed the caliper off the rotor. Your piton will pop out otherwise. Don't ask me how I know that... That's King Weenie to you!

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: can.al] #1594528 03/18/14 11:09 PM 03/18/14 11:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,233 petaluma,ca. u.s.a. west master
west master Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,233 petaluma,ca. u.s.a.	Quote: no check or residual valves for discs... That is incorrect.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: west] #1594529 03/18/14 11:54 PM 03/18/14 11:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,315 Omaha Ne T TJP I Live Here
TJP I Live Here T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,315 Omaha Ne	Quote: Quote: no check or residual valves for discs... That is incorrect. I'll agree but the OP appears to have all the answers having done thousands of brake jobs throughout his professional career. "NOT his first RODEO". OK I'm done here. www.tandmautomotive-omaha.com

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: TJP] #1594530 03/19/14 12:25 AM 03/19/14 12:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,233 petaluma,ca. u.s.a. west master
west master Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,233 petaluma,ca. u.s.a.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: west] #1594531 03/19/14 06:59 AM 03/19/14 06:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Quote: no check or residual valves for discs... That is incorrect. If my dusty memory serves me right on some master cylinders they built in and are where the line screws in. I have included a picture from the factory service manual, drum brake only, For the hell of it I'll bleed the calipers at 12 o'clock, they are already off with blocks in them. Oh and we did bled the system again last night, at the master, line lock and calipers and it made no difference. Pedal still had a measured 5" drop when heaving on the brakes. For those interested in the lines, I observed no measurable swelling. They would "squirm" a little bit under hard application but thats it. 8080092-2014-03-1905.09.53.jpg (75 downloads) "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: TJP] #1594532 03/19/14 07:22 AM 03/19/14 07:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Quote: Quote: no check or residual valves for discs... That is incorrect. I'll agree but the OP appears to have all the answers having done thousands of brake jobs throughout his professional career. "NOT his first RODEO". OK I'm done here. You opined there was air in the system even though there isn't a single indication there is. No bubbles in the system, no surge in the master when the pedal is released and the pedal doesn't pump up to a higher/better location. I've done everything short of rotate the car 90 degree while bleeding. (have had at 45 degrees though) it hasn't changed at all. No opinion on the unevenly worn pads? There is an problem right there that will cause the described issue even though I don't think that is it totally. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594533 03/19/14 07:30 AM 03/19/14 07:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	For those leaning towards the prop valve, here is the section where the manual clearly states its for metering pressure to the rear brakes to prevent lockup. I have done this swap several times with great success, I'm starting to think I have a defective master since the rest of the system looks to be up to snuff. Stranger things have happened. I have a lightweight manual master with adapter on my Dart, I'll try swapping it and see what happens. 8080100-2014-03-1905.10.25.jpg (71 downloads) "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: Twostick] #1594534 03/19/14 07:38 AM 03/19/14 07:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Can you seal off the top of the master and then put a vacuum on the reservoir? I could fabricate something, I might try it if the other master I have doesn't work out. I really hate swapping out a manual master, I'm not as flexible as I use to be after pulling wrenches for 31 years. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594535 03/19/14 08:05 AM 03/19/14 08:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,171 Park Forest, IL slantzilla Too Many Posts
slantzilla Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,171 Park Forest, IL	Don't be surprised if your Otterzone rebuilt calipers are junk. I had the same issue on my old Duster and ended up changing calipers. Had the same experiences with an AZ master. Took 3 of them to get a good one. "Everybody funny, now you funny too."

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: slantzilla] #1594536 03/19/14 08:14 AM 03/19/14 08:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Don't be surprised if your Otterzone rebuilt calipers are junk. I had the same issue on my old Duster and ended up changing calipers. At this point the only thing I'm sure that is good is the darn hoses! "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594537 03/19/14 10:57 AM 03/19/14 10:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	Quote: For those leaning towards the prop valve, here is the section where the manual clearly states its for metering pressure to the rear brakes to prevent lockup. /quote] I take back my smart comment. I have repeatedly told you that my comments on the combination valve have NOTHING to do with your current issues. What I have said is that not running one is a bad idea and if you actually COMPREHENDED what both myself AND the FSM is saying you'd know why. BUt like others have said, you know it all. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: Supercuda] #1594538 03/19/14 11:05 AM 03/19/14 11:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: What I have said is that not running one is a bad idea and if you actually COMPREHENDED what both myself AND the FSM is saying you'd know why. BUt like others have said, you know it all. "I suggest you look into what the factory combination valve does before you dismiss having one or think just putting an aftermarket adjustable proportioning valve in is the same. " The factory combination valve does nothing but regulate the amount of pressure to the REAR brakes and provide a location for the brake warning pressure switch. If I had a problem with the REAR brakes not functioning correctly I'd look into it. Since the problem is with the FRONTS not working effectively its something that can be excluded for the moment. Opinion on the unevenly worn pads? "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594539 03/19/14 12:03 PM 03/19/14 12:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Gdonovan you sure are handling the haters on here much better than I would (or have) . It's always a pain when peoples' Mammas dont tuck em in at night then we have to deal with their attitudes. After rereading your OP, with the line lock in the line to the front discs when it's on the pedal is rock solid which tells me that the M/C is good (& it was before) & the rear drum half is good & that the problem is downstream from the line lock which is the front discs. I bet it is the calipers & rebuilt ones are cheap. Keep us updated live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: slantzilla] #1594540 03/19/14 01:09 PM 03/19/14 01:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,274 Ontario.Canada C can.al pro stock
can.al pro stock C Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,274 Ontario.Canada	why do you suspect calipers? ..the ops calipers are working and he has described no leaks. ..how did your rebuilt units fail?

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: can.al] #1594541 03/19/14 02:12 PM 03/19/14 02:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: why do you suspect calipers? I suspect ANY of the new parts myself. Some caliper seals are directional, maybe the installer bungled it and thats why they are retracting 1/8" when you lift off the brake. I didn't think the mopar single piston units were that way but its been a decades since I have rebuilt a pair. Maybe the Advance Auto caliper rebuilder is using kits from China! Time permitting the easy thing to do is swap them off my Duster, known good units. Has to be hoses or calipers. While the pads look funky they do look like there were starting to shape themselves flat and the odd pedal was still there when I substituted blocks of steel for the pads. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: RapidRobert] #1594542 03/19/14 02:20 PM 03/19/14 02:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Quote: Gdonovan you sure are handling the haters on here much better than I would (or have) . Well I try to give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe I wasn't clear on some point or left some chunk of information out hence I try to be as descriptive as possible. Perhaps I didn't grasp the meaning of what one person suggested and ask to have something expanded on. "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594543 03/19/14 02:21 PM 03/19/14 02:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,274 Ontario.Canada C can.al pro stock
can.al pro stock C Joined: Feb 2009 Posts: 1,274 Ontario.Canada	yes,1/8 travel seems far too much.perhaps using a spacer position those pistons further out and re assemble?

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: can.al] #1594544 03/19/14 08:22 PM 03/19/14 08:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,377 Ohio Todd pro stock
Todd pro stock Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,377 Ohio	Quote: yes,1/8 travel seems far too much.perhaps using a spacer position those pistons further out and re assemble? Spacer??? Maybe your forgetting how a disc brake caliper work If your pistons are retracting 1/8" that's way to far. Like I stated before the seals are pulling the pistons back to far. They should only retract far enough to let the rotor spin without touching.

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: Todd] #1594545 03/19/14 08:40 PM 03/19/14 08:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT gdonovan OP I Live Here
gdonovan OP I Live Here Joined: Jun 2008 Posts: 10,847 Oakdale CT	Swapped the calipers from Duster <---> GTX, noted the Duster had steel pistons while the GTX had the phenolic resin units. Both calipers had 3699963 part number cast into the back of the drivers side unit. No road test tonight, have to be up at some ungodly hour of the morning to pull a third shift fire drill. Dinner, Justified and bed! "I think its got a hemi"

Re: Brake pedal "meh" thinking about braided lines. [Re: gdonovan] #1594546 03/19/14 10:17 PM 03/19/14 10:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: Swapped the calipers from Duster <---> No road test tonight, We'll be waiting live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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