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Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
#1590975
03/10/14 03:00 PM
03/10/14 03:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255
Columbus, GA
Michael Ecks
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255
Columbus, GA
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I just bought a Lunati Voodoo camshaft to replace the damaged old comp cams stick in my 360.
The voodoo cam lists a LSA of 112 and an ICL of 108, which I realized and it shows on the cam card as 4 degrees advanced.
Does this mean that if I use the crank and cam sprocket "dot-to-dot" as a baseline for installing it, that is ground to be set up close to set up there without using the 4 dgree advanced keyway in the sprocket?
Or does it mean they recommend installing it at four degrees advanced using the crank sprocket keyway to get 108, but "dot-to-dot" would put it at 112.
I know it needs to be properly degree-ed in to be sure. Just wondering where to start as far as setting it up.
"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of
your thoughts" ~ Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Michael Ecks]
#1590976
03/10/14 03:05 PM
03/10/14 03:05 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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In a perfect world you would need to advance it four degrees from dot to dot. However, dot to dot will pretty much never put a cam at the actual "straight up" position. In a perfect world dot to dot would be a 112 ICL with that cam. BUT who knows what the cam manufacturer did, and what the timing set manufacturer did. Thats why you need to degree it.
I always start with a "0" degree advance setting (aka dot to dot) and check the timing. If its not right try your advanced options.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Michael Ecks]
#1590978
03/10/14 03:16 PM
03/10/14 03:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,777
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,777
Rio Linda, CA
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Every cam that I've checked recently was 4° advanced when installed dot-to-dot. I've always assumed this was to compensate for chain stretch.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: 80fbody]
#1590980
03/10/14 03:58 PM
03/10/14 03:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
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Quote:
Not sure I follow GTX Matt on this. Usually the cams come with the 4 degrees "ground in" so if you install dot to dot it should be around 108 in your case. Still need to check though.
Sure, it MAY have four degrees ground in either on purpose of by error. Depending on whos timing set your using, it may also have 6, or 2, or -5. In an ideal world though, straight up would be straight up.
Last edited by GTX MATT; 03/10/14 03:59 PM.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Michael Ecks]
#1590981
03/10/14 07:16 PM
03/10/14 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never know what you have... degree it in... and if this is a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would be better for the low end torque... even 102 EDIT To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is move the key way 4* from the 112 
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/10/14 07:20 PM.
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1590982
03/10/14 08:07 PM
03/10/14 08:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never
know what you have... degree it in... and if this is
a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would
be better for the low end torque... even 102
EDIT
To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is
move the key way 4* from the 112
When you put the cam, gears , and chain in you need a starting point ( BEFORE YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ). Dot to dot is your starting point. Quite often, you will find ( WHEN YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ), that you will be on the cam spec numbers - or very close. You can make your adjustments form there. As I said, this is a 4 degree advance web sight. I disagree with that approach for several reasons. 1. I'm not as smart as the cam designers. 2.I don't own a WEEGEE board. 3. If you did your home work correctly regarding choosing a cam, you shouldn't have to advance / retard it to make it work better. At least start with it in per the cam card. Then, if you are not happy with it, change it. If you run the motor in and get some compression readings it will be a good place to start. Then when you start moving the cam around, you can see how it might effect the compression readings. Generally, if they start to drop off, you went the wrong way ( or too far) advancing it. If you have to advance it 4-6 degrees for street use, you bought the wrong cam.
Fastest 300
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1590983
03/10/14 08:19 PM
03/10/14 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,157
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never
know what you have... degree it in... and if this is
a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would
be better for the low end torque... even 102
EDIT
To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is
move the key way 4* from the 112
  Never, EVER take anything thing on motors for granted, NEVER  I've seen cams that where ground 8 degrees retarded  I've seen timing sets marked no where near accurate   Take your time and slide that rascal in on the two O marks, line the dots up and check the lifter timing at .050 lifter rise first, that will tell you if your close  If not adjust(move the crank gear to another location, advanced or retarded, and recheck it  Always verify everything with after market parts, if you don't Mr Murphy will take a big old bite out of your Butt, you know he will  At least he does that to me regularily
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1590984
03/10/14 08:42 PM
03/10/14 08:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,391
nielsville, minn.
quickd100
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,391
nielsville, minn.
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Quote:
Quote:
Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never
know what you have... degree it in... and if this is
a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would
be better for the low end torque... even 102
EDIT
To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is
move the key way 4* from the 112
Never, EVER take anything thing on motors for granted, NEVER I've seen cams that where ground 8 degrees retarded I've seen timing sets marked no where near accurate Take your time and slide that rascal in on the two O marks, line the dots up and check the lifter timing at .050 lifter rise first, that will tell you if your close If not adjust(move the crank gear to another location, advanced or retarded, and recheck it Always verify everything with after market parts, if you don't Mr Murphy will take a big old bite out of your Butt, you know he will At least he does that to me regularily
I agree, the last cam I checked was the one in my napa rebuild 318. The guy had installed it dot to dot. The cam had a centerline of 110, dot to dot it was in at 113. The motor had zip for compression to begin with, retarding the cam surely didn't help matters.Dave
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Crizila]
#1590985
03/10/14 09:19 PM
03/10/14 09:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never
know what you have... degree it in... and if this is
a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would
be better for the low end torque... even 102
EDIT
To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is
move the key way 4* from the 112
When you put the cam, gears , and chain in you need a starting point ( BEFORE YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ). Dot to dot is your starting point. Quite often, you will find ( WHEN YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ), that you will be on the cam spec numbers - or very close. You can make your adjustments form there. As I said, this is a 4 degree advance web sight. I disagree with that approach for several reasons. 1. I'm not as smart as the cam designers. 2.I don't own a WEEGEE board. 3. If you did your home work correctly regarding choosing a cam, you shouldn't have to advance / retard it to make it work better. At least start with it in per the cam card. Then, if you are not happy with it, change it. If you run the motor in and get some compression readings it will be a good place to start. Then when you start moving the cam around, you can see how it might effect the compression readings. Generally, if they start to drop off, you went the wrong way ( or too far) advancing it. If you have to advance it 4-6 degrees for street use, you bought the wrong cam.
Theres only one problem doing it that way... being
a street car once its in and it runs... he will NEVER
move the cam to see if its better or not.. I have
never seen a guy change the C/L on a street car as
long as it ran(I am not talking about a racers street
car but the average street car guy)
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1590986
03/10/14 09:42 PM
03/10/14 09:42 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Dont even try to do the dot to dot... you will never
know what you have... degree it in... and if this is
a street car advance it more than the 108... 104 would
be better for the low end torque... even 102
EDIT
To the manu... 108 is straight up... all they do is
move the key way 4* from the 112
When you put the cam, gears , and chain in you need a starting point ( BEFORE YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ). Dot to dot is your starting point. Quite often, you will find ( WHEN YOU START DEGREEING IT IN ), that you will be on the cam spec numbers - or very close. You can make your adjustments form there. As I said, this is a 4 degree advance web sight. I disagree with that approach for several reasons. 1. I'm not as smart as the cam designers. 2.I don't own a WEEGEE board. 3. If you did your home work correctly regarding choosing a cam, you shouldn't have to advance / retard it to make it work better. At least start with it in per the cam card. Then, if you are not happy with it, change it. If you run the motor in and get some compression readings it will be a good place to start. Then when you start moving the cam around, you can see how it might effect the compression readings. Generally, if they start to drop off, you went the wrong way ( or too far) advancing it. If you have to advance it 4-6 degrees for street use, you bought the wrong cam.
Theres only one problem doing it that way... being
a street car once its in and it runs... he will NEVER
move the cam to see if its better or not.. I have
never seen a guy change the C/L on a street car as
long as it ran(I am not talking about a racers street
car but the average street car guy)
Well - - then he will never know - - and it doesn't really matter if he does or not. I, personally, would rather put it in to spec than guessing that it needs another 4 degrees of advance - even if it's an "educated" guess. As far a compensating for wear goes, I would hope that the cam Mfgs / designers have given that some thought also. 
Fastest 300
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Crizila]
#1590989
03/11/14 12:28 AM
03/11/14 12:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
TS3303
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,981
SE Michigan
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you guys are confusing the OP's numbers. The LSA is 112 not the ICL.
If all the manufacturing tolerances are correct for the cam, dowel, sprockets, chain, crank keyway.... The ICL would be 108º BUT without seeing the raw cam card numbers who knows.
IMHO no camshaft should ever be put in without a degree wheel.
I think cam companies recommend the 4º advance is because the vehicle is always heavier than thought, has less compression, less stall, less gear, etc. They've adjusted for end user optimism
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: TS3303]
#1590991
03/11/14 02:00 AM
03/11/14 02:00 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Quote:
you guys are confusing the OP's numbers. The LSA is 112 not the ICL.
If all the manufacturing tolerances are correct for the cam, dowel, sprockets, chain, crank keyway.... The ICL would be 108º BUT without seeing the raw cam card numbers who knows.
IMHO no camshaft should ever be put in without a degree wheel.
I think cam companies recommend the 4º advance is because the vehicle is always heavier than thought, has less compression, less stall, less gear, etc. They've adjusted for end user optimism
I agree that you see alot of people confuse the Lobe Seperation Angle (LSA) with the Installed Centerline (ICL) and get the cam in wrong. But you should always degree the cam as just manufactors tolorances can have it off some and unless you degree it you will never know where it really is and if your leaving some performance on the table. Ron
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Re: Camshaft Installed Center Line question.
[Re: Michael Ecks]
#1590992
03/11/14 02:15 AM
03/11/14 02:15 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
I just bought a Lunati Voodoo camshaft to replace the damaged old comp cams stick in my 360.
The voodoo cam lists a LSA of 112 and an ICL of 108, which I realized and it shows on the cam card as 4 degrees advanced.
Does this mean that if I use the crank and cam sprocket "dot-to-dot" as a baseline for installing it, that is ground to be set up close to set up there without using the 4 dgree advanced keyway in the sprocket?
Or does it mean they recommend installing it at four degrees advanced using the crank sprocket keyway to get 108, but "dot-to-dot" would put it at 112.
I know it needs to be properly degree-ed in to be sure. Just wondering where to start as far as setting it up.
It depends whether or not Lunati grinds thier cams with 4* advance in them.
If they do, Dot to Dot is the start. If they dont, the 4* advance Keyway will be the start. Then, Degree and Adjust from there!!
Also, you may consider your "overall combo" and adjust further or less based on your experience.
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