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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1568623
01/28/14 03:01 AM
01/28/14 03:01 AM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 240
Plano, Texas
68cuda440
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 240
Plano, Texas
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Quote:
Mark is a "perfect storm" of ingenuity and opportunity that I don't think exists at Mopar or Ford anymore. We would have to have had someone transplanting Viper tech into E-Bodies for the last 15 years to catch up to Stielow.
In the mid 90s when I was coming out of college it was all messed up. A GM recruiter in '92 promised to get me in to the intern program as soon as I made 60 hours. I was an ASE Certified Master Tech working my way through a Mechanical Engineering undergrad working full time, going to school full time and had a 4.0 GPA. The following year I followed up and he had been let go and they had a freeze on the program. I interviewed with Ford a few years later, but was not impressed at all by the company culture of the group I was talking to. At one point was talking to a Ford development guy who was willing to try to get me into the cylinder head development program. I was more interested in transmissions and integration than CFD. Chrysler was not hiring at all. So... I ended up in a different industry, one that actually pays well.
8-9 years ago I worked at a place where we were developing active suspension systems. We were also doing hybrid drivetrain development work. What DSE is doing is adapting production tech into older cars, it is not ahead of the curve. Stielow is doing good work. I like that he has at least added ABS and traction control. It would be even more impressive if he went all out with a stability control system (he is probably trying to do it now). I did some traction control, ABS, and tire modeling simulations in graduate school. We did a lot of interesting projects and testing in a vehicle dynamics course I took. Really interesting stuff. We make ABS controller chips for some of the big auto OEMs were I work now. I think I would have enjoyed very much doing the kind of work Stielow gets to do.
I have often felt that the aftermarket on our older cars across the board has been limited. I think that a smart enough system could be made that, with the right set-up could be on par with current traction control, ABS, and stability control. Put that in a light car with good tires and it will be pretty impressive. First issue is money. Second is time. It can all be done. Just wondering, how does someone like DSE fly low enough under the radar that they do not have to deal with the DOT and NTSB? Do these products fall under "off road use only" or some other gray area that makes it tacitly OK?
B/E-bodies? Go with the A-body and at least you can start with a weight advantage. I always wondered why so many people like those huge cars (just kidding guys).
I also wonder why DSE went with a 4 link? Is that a packaging compromise? Could a 3 link or truck arm put down better times? I see quite a few places where the design they are doing is made to work within the confines of a bolt in requirement. In the case of the rear it fits in with some welding and minor modification to the rear seats. I do not see any huge advantage other than they are leveraging production Corvette knuckles and have a few good dedicated engineers working on their systems. They also have a lot of inside connections, definitely does not hurt. Unfortunately the Mopar aftermarket probably can not support the weight of the overhead needed to compete directly. You guys are cheap and there are not enough of you.
Whatever happened to XV? They had a flurry of activity... I have not heard anything of them in a few years now. Were they not trying to do the same thing as DSE?
Last edited by 68cuda440; 01/28/14 03:04 AM.
Michael
1968 Barracuda Notchback Coupe
440 EFI 6-pack, T56 Magnum 6-spd
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1568624
01/28/14 04:26 AM
01/28/14 04:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
x2
Stielow built cars are amazing.
So this weekend I outran a ZL1 Camaro along with a few supercars. Does that put my 'stock suspension' mopar on par with the Stielow built car?
What events do the Stielow Camaro's usually run in? Preferably long road courses and near Houston, TX. I'll go line up and give you a baseline.
You got a ways to go my friend. But I like your ambition! Looking at your vids, probably 10-15 seconds. Don't be discouraged though, your car runs good.
He will probably show to some of the USCA events. We will be at Laguna Seca. Assuming a lot of the big dogs will be there.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: 68cuda440]
#1568625
01/28/14 04:28 AM
01/28/14 04:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
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Quote:
... I have often felt that the aftermarket on our older cars across the board has been limited. I think that a smart enough system could be made that, with the right set-up could be on par with current traction control, ABS, and stability control. Put that in a light car with good tires and it will be pretty impressive. First issue is money. Second is time. It can all be done. Just wondering, how does someone like DSE fly low enough under the radar that they do not have to deal with the DOT and NTSB? Do these products fall under "off road use only" or some other gray area that makes it tacitly OK?
...
I'm with you there.
It's too easy/common to get lots of HP nowdays on a street car. Old or new.
The hard part is controlling that HP on the street to make it usuable. And controlling it on the track for novice drivers.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: Viol8r]
#1568627
01/28/14 11:06 AM
01/28/14 11:06 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
You got a ways to go my friend. But I like your ambition! Looking at your vids, probably 10-15 seconds. Don't be discouraged though, your car runs good.
He will probably show to some of the USCA events. We will be at Laguna Seca. Assuming a lot of the big dogs will be there.
That was definitely a tongue in cheek comment by me.
I've got a long way to go. I'm currently 8-10 seconds behind well driven well balanced 'street' cars on 'street' tires in other run groups ('06 Z06 and Porsche GT3 on Nitto invos, S2000 on ZII's, etc), and 10-15-20 seconds behind those driven on R compound tires or true slicks (spec miatas, 06 Z06 on R6's, my instructors LS7 BMW, well sorted V8 miata with aero, well sorted viper ACR-X). To close that gap, I need driver improvement.
The only serious part was my willingness to line it up on the same track on the same day and see how it goes. Nothin like a baseline to work from!
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1568630
01/28/14 01:31 PM
01/28/14 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
Quote:
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
go for it, sounds like you have a plan so by all means. If you race a Camaro body full of DSE stuff with a Mopar body converted over to DSE stuff, what have you proven? That is the point that is missed.
I am not sure there is much of a point to be made. I do not run these events with a chip on my shoulder. I believe that most people in the P/T world understand the up hill battle we fight on the some of these bigger Mopars.
At the end of the day it comes down to this for me. I just drove a 1968 Dodge Charger around a road course, and they have to drive a Camaro. Good enough for me!
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: 67autocross]
#1568632
01/28/14 02:54 PM
01/28/14 02:54 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
Consulier
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 256
USA
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Quote:
Do you know if Rick going to use the aluminum block in the build? To me that would be the biggest advantage from switching from the old small block.
No, there are cheaper ways to take 100 lbs out of that car.
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: AndyF]
#1568637
01/28/14 06:43 PM
01/28/14 06:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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It is a little bit of a project compared to running a small block but not THAT bad anymore once you see what some of us idiots have done wrong, it helps.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: kotacars]
#1568639
01/28/14 07:00 PM
01/28/14 07:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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You said: Quote:
Well my car is streetable makes more then 600 hp and has a viper T56 six speed and I did not cut the floor or firewall out I know that it's not up to the task of taking out a stielow built Camaro but does handle very well. Once I free up time from customer cars I plan to beet the GM boys at there own game by using there products. 1) my car is a early a body detroitspeed mustang front supension so I will be keep my factory rails but will be tied into my cage 2) detoit speed Camaro rear 4 link all this without cutting my car to pcs
Then you said:
Quote:
The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
Let me get this straight...
You have a car with a Chrysler body, Chrysler engine, Ford front suspension, and GM rear suspension.
It looks like you have a bit of everything mashed together. Why would you call Mopar guys out if your critical bits are non-Mopar?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
[Re: 73MagDuster]
#1568641
01/28/14 07:30 PM
01/28/14 07:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
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Quote:
I was an engineer at Chrysler for almost 10 years starting in the late 90's. We were forbidden from anything like DSE and to some extent Stielow are doing on any Chrysler products. One of my friends at Chrysler had a side business making suspension and stiffening components for Fox and SN95 Mustangs since he couldn't do anything for Mopars.
We weren't forbidden from developing and building stuff for our own rides, it was the selling and profiting that was frowned upon.
I have a 73 Duster with a JTEC 5.9L Magnum and Ram electrical architecture I have been working on for 12 years, and I know it wouldn't be where it is today if I couldn't have called some engineers for guidance and help (not to discount guys on here like AndyF and Dr. Diff).
Very cool 1st hand info. Very insightful post. Thank you. 
I can sort of understand Chrysler's reasoning on this though. Most companies have similar policies and practices. Some written, some not.
Wonder if Steilow gets an OK from GM if it's viewed as PR and Marketing for GM? Like a place to showcase their aftermarket and production products (crate engines)?? And also to promote the GM and Camaro brands?? 
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