Moparts
Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant
Posted By: kotacars
Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 09:30 PM
I know this is not a apples to apples comparison but I am interested to see what would happen not enough mopars running a modern suspension without cutting the car all up
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 10:22 PM
Quote:
I know this is not a apples to apples comparison but I am interested to see what would happen not enough mopars running a modern suspension without cutting the car all up
Define modern suspension.
Lots of well handling Mopars out there using upgraded stock type suspensions.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 10:34 PM
Lots of well handling? Define what you would call well handling? If it can keep pace with a mark stielow Camaro then I would define that as well handling
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 10:58 PM
Road course or autocross or both?
I think Tim's car is focused all on road course.
Of course Tim's car is actually Valiant.
The Stielow "Camaro" is 100% fabricated custom chassis vehicle that just happens to by-the-way have Camaro body hung over it.
With the aero and no compromise chassis, I'd guess the Stielow "Camaro" would be faster on a road course. I have no idea if Tim's Valiant would keep pace or not.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 11:01 PM
Both and stielows cars use all detroit speed parts but still has factory firewall and floor
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/25/14 11:53 PM
According to CarCraft the suspension consists of:
Mark's car was a shell when he bought it, so rather than finding a stock subframe assembly, he went straight to the good stuff, calling friends Kyle and Stacy Tucker at Detroit Speed and Engineering to place an order for their front clip. While he was on the phone, Mark ordered a QuadraLink rear suspension kit as well as the rear minitub kit and front and rear sway bars for good measure. With adjustable, tubular control arms on all four corners working in conjunction with remote reservoir double-adjustable shock absorbers, Mark's car represents the ultimate in first-gen F-car handling.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 01:38 AM
Define which Stielow Camaro you want to talk about first. The guy has built fifteen of them.
FWIW, I seem to recall a recent comparions of Stielow's Red Devil (maybe his most famous one) to a modern ZL1. Net result was you could buy 2.5 new ZL1s and have some change left over for a daily driver compared to what it took to build the Red Devil Camaro.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 01:39 AM
Quote:
Both and stielows cars use all detroit speed parts but still has factory firewall and floor
Making the recesses to allow the triangulated 4 link upper mounts to clear is not a stock floor in my book. A more fair comparison would be the Red Devil against John Sandberg's AAR. That would be a nice a$$ kickn to witness.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 02:44 AM
As usual you mopar guys totally missed this one stielows car has all stock sheet metal yes it has been mini tubed and has notches in the floor pans but do what he has within the same paramiters to a mopar the answer is no one has
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 02:45 AM
Tim probably has about $40K in his Valiant, Stielow's cars are usually $100K+ type of rides.
Tim's Valiant is still in my shop at the moment. It is getting close to firing up for the year, just need a few more parts to show up. The front suspension has a ton of custom built parts on it this time around so it will be interesting to see how it works. He finally got to a point where the stock stuff just didn't cut it anymore. The front suspension is now Kit Car style with a spline drive anti-sway bar built into the K-frame.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 02:52 AM
So is it like a firm feel road race k frame? Show us what you did?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 02:58 AM
Quote:
As usual you mopar guys totally missed this one stielows car has all stock sheet metal yes it has been mini tubed and has notches in the floor pans but do what he has within the same paramiters to a mopar the answer is no one has
You obviously havent seen Sandberg's Cuda with it stock sheetmetal. And what do you mean "As usual you mopar guys totally missed this one" ?? If not a Mopar guy then why are you here posting? And the by the way, Mopars dont need completely new suspensions put under them to run with new cars like GM cars do so NO, your not gonna see anyone do what Stielow did.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 03:04 AM
Well my personel car has many old school nascar tricks and then some plus a 630 hp small block will pull to 180mph on the straights with a lot left but not enough suspension to take it there so stock mopar spindles or control arms will not take it to the next level
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 03:59 AM
Quote:
Well my personel car has many old school nascar tricks and then some plus a 630 hp small block will pull to 180mph on the straights with a lot left but not enough suspension to take it there so stock mopar spindles or control arms will not take it to the next level
Quote:
So is it like a firm feel road race k frame? Show us what you did?
406ciW5, that sounds cool. 
Show us what you did.
Posted By: Grizzly
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 04:05 AM
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And the by the way, Mopars dont need completely new suspensions put under them to run with new cars like GM cars
Bang on the money. 
*Edit* Agree with Steve: can you post some pics of your car and what you got going on there?
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 04:35 AM
I would say something very similar as what AndyF has going on
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 05:18 AM
Quote:
I would say something very similar as what AndyF has going on
Cool, lets see some pictures 406ciW5 and share some ideas.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 06:14 AM
Those two cars are not even on the same planet, sorry to say. We competed at Optima and he had us covered by 18 seconds on a 2.2 mile course. We were the fastest Mopar there. Not saying the Valiant couldn't put it to us, but .....
The craftsmanship and engineering on his cars are second to none.
We are 10 years from having something that can run with cars like that. I have in the realm of 100k in mine......You can double that in Stielows. 700hp, anti-loc, traction control, please!
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 01:17 PM
I would not say that mopars are 10 years form having that technology the new hemi can make that power and detoit speed is doing a charger with all there suspension tricks
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 07:00 PM
Hello,
Yeah I have been looking at their Charger project. Lots of tricks. I'd also like to hear more about your ride.
Damon
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 10:14 PM
Just a well balanced car front is 50.7 rear is 49.0 nascar style sway bar b body lower control arms b body spindles Hotchkis upper control arms big bermbo brakes 18x9 rims 275 30 18 tires rear is just the basic stuff leaf springs adjustable sway bar 315 30 18 tires just a small block making a nice torque curve 500 plus all the way to 6500 RPMs 630 hp. A lot of time on the track and street tuning
Even if you were to do a full tube chassis using the lastest and greatest parts you will it a brick wall with the aero these old cars have I am just out to do what GM guys have been doing for a long time long before mark stielow was considered the god father of pro touring. In fact in 1987 HO racing using simple bolt on parts of there own design pulled 1g on the skid pad. I don t feel my car is all that trick I have just combined parts that work and yes it was not cheap I am right at 100k myself and still developing this car to its full potential.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/26/14 11:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64-Y2HvnfrgThis car? It's fassssst , don't think I would want to line it up with anything short of a full on race car.
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 12:01 AM
Quote:
Define which Stielow Camaro you want to talk about first. The guy has built fifteen of them.
FWIW, I seem to recall a recent comparions of Stielow's Red Devil (maybe his most famous one) to a modern ZL1. Net result was you could buy 2.5 new ZL1s and have some change left over for a daily driver compared to what it took to build the Red Devil Camaro.
I think this is a good point - how many has Mark built (think of all the development time he has under his belt - I'm sure he can sort an first gen F body pretty quick) vs. what just about anyone else has done, plus isn't he a GM engineer with some good connections too? I think we (the Mopar crowd) are about 10 years behind on this kind of stuff IMO The other thing you don't see mentioned very often is torsional rigidity. Don't get me wrong, I love old mopars, but I don't expect my old Plymouth to ever handle as well as a new challenger or viper and I'm ok with that.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 12:30 AM
I think he was the suspension engineer on the new Z28 Camaro which pulls like 1.05g cornering.
Posted By: Skeptic
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 12:37 AM
Quote:
Tim probably has about $40K in his Valiant, Stielow's cars are usually $100K+ type of rides.
Tim's Valiant is still in my shop at the moment. It is getting close to firing up for the year, just need a few more parts to show up. The front suspension has a ton of custom built parts on it this time around so it will be interesting to see how it works. He finally got to a point where the stock stuff just didn't cut it anymore. The front suspension is now Kit Car style with a spline drive anti-sway bar built into the K-frame.
I can't blame Tim for wanting to step up, still his car was/is an inspiration for my car. It was clean and UNtrick and out ran far more expensive rides, like the "Green Brick" to the next stage.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 07:42 AM
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The craftsmanship and engineering on his cars are second to none.
We are 10 years from having something that can run with cars like that. I have in the realm of 100k in mine......You can double that in Stielows. 700hp, anti-loc, traction control, please!
I agree 100%; and that Camaro was now 2 versions ago. He is working on XV now. Mark is a "perfect storm" of ingenuity and opportunity that I don't think exists at Mopar or Ford anymore. We would have to have had someone transplanting Viper tech into E-Bodies for the last 15 years to catch up to Stielow. Just remember, the current car Stielow is building is Version #15! That said, Stielow HAS lost 2 years running to Brian's 2nd Gen CP car and his Vette. Mark just kept beating him at the design challenges until his win this year.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:18 PM
So Dan being a suspension engineer with Hotchkis you are saying that a old mopar will not reach the level Mark Stielow is at with his camaros? What if you take all that Mark has done with detroit speed parts and put it into a mopar that shares the same wheel base a good aero with a engine and trans package that can match his
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:19 PM
Power, weight, handling and driver. It can be broken down to those basic items and all of them need to be sorted to produce a winning car.
Mopars can produce the power - 650+ hp out of a Gen 3 is not a problem. We can make enough power. We don't need 750 hp if we can make weight. Stielow admits that he can't use all the power his car makes anyway.
Mopars can make weight - A sorted A Body is going to have about 200 lbs on Stielow's Camaro, if not more. Not sure about Brian's car, haven't seen a weight on that. I would hope that would be more on par with an A Body and be down under 3000.
Mopars can handle - Just look at the autocross results at the same events the rest of these cars are attending. E Max is right there, nothing unobtainable in that car and it's overweight and severely down on power. The Taxi is 7 seconds slower than Stielow at Gingerman on the 2.14 mile course. Yes, that is within reason with the car being down 250+ hp and heavy by 600+ lbs. Mopars are not getting beat at these events because they can't handle, or stop.
Driver - As far as the driver goes, you can't just go get a pro to wheel your car at these events. Even if you have the most power and the best handing, unless you can wheel it as well as the other people currently finishing in the Top 5 you're done before you started. Remember that Randy Pobst (a pro) flung a new AMG Wagon around Pahrump within a couple seconds of the fastest cars this year. The times are somewhere online, but that wagon weighs 4733 lbs and makes something like 577 hp. Overweight by 1500 lbs and down 200 hp, but still within the Top 10 in road course times. The driver is a significant portion of this equation.
So, until the planets align and get all of these things in the same Mopar, we will never know.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:27 PM
Well maybe there should be a grudge match who are the fastest mopars and drives on a road course and where do they rate to stielow
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:40 PM
Quote:
Well maybe there should be a grudge match who are the fastest mopars and drives on a road course and where do they rate to stielow
Why does there need to be a grudge match? Just show up to the USCA events and run with everybody else. You will see where you and your car rate at the end of the weekend.
It appears you are attempting to stir the pot for some reason. Care to share what that reason is?
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:46 PM
Sorry if it seams that way just looking to find these fast mopars and how they compair to marks camaros
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:48 PM
Quote:
So Dan being a suspension engineer with Hotchkis you are saying that a old mopar will not reach the level Mark Stielow is at with his camaros? What if you take all that Mark has done with detroit speed parts and put it into a mopar that shares the same wheel base a good aero with a engine and trans package that can match his
We'e trying right now, with Kevin's 76 Dart. It'll be a hell of a car for sure. And he is a fantastic driver, so I think that he will do really well once the car is sorted.
Our Mopar suspensions have a lot to offer, but are far from perfect. We look at the numbers and know the cars shouldn't be as fast as they are, but with a bit of luck and some really handy drivers, the cars do exceptionally well for what they are. There are a lot of set backs and limitations unless you are willing to make some serious compromises though to achieve a really good COG and balance to these cars. And as a Mopar guy, I just can't get myself to hack one up enough to do it. The guys at JCG have though, with the 70 R/T the cut up and installed a full C6 Based custom subframe/LS2 and flared the crap out of the fenders to get massive tires on all four corners. They have been testing for a couple months and the car looks promising with a good driver, and I'm sure it'll only get better. But again, sacrifices I'm not willing to make for the sake of speed.
http://i1015.photobucket.com/albums/af27...zps71d671d4.jpg
I think the biggest point that a lot of folks miss with Stielow's cars is that they are "true" cars as well. Tunes, heater, A/C, power options, traction control, ABS, ect. All this stuff adds up to a car that is not just fast, but does real car stuff. To top that off, he is a suspension engineer for GM and gets a lot of cool stuff to play with on his cars.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 03:56 PM
Quote:
Sorry if it seams that way just looking to find these fast mopars and how they compair to marks camaros
Simple answer... there has not been a properly constructed package that has been campaigned in the same events to use as a comparison. It just doesn't exist yet. The cars that have competed in the same events have been overweight and under powered. Apples to Oranges before you can even get to see where the suspension is the limiting factor.
There are a ton of cars out there that have all kinds of power and modifications, but they don't seem to ever show up. Can't judge them if they stay in the garage.
If somebody shows up with a 650+ hp package, with a decent weight of 3,300 or less, then we can start to review the other areas and see about completing the comparison.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 05:58 PM
I don t think you will have to cut up a car to achieve the performance mark has I would rather call it micro surgery . The LMC 1970 super cuda was a max effort 1 mil car but I am not sure if it has a/c radio but it did go 208 on a road course
Posted By: B-Body Bull
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 07:12 PM
Has Tim's Valiant caught on fire yet ? Bad Joke... Modern suspension for Mopars ? XV tried. Who's Next ?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 08:02 PM
What are the rear suspension plans for this 76 Dart? With any decent power the rear springs will wad up like throwing spaghetti on a cupboard door.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 08:18 PM
Quote:
What are the rear suspension plans for this 76 Dart? With any decent power the rear springs will wad up like throwing spaghetti on a cupboard door.
Leaf springs
It's going to start with a bone stock 6.4 with headers, no cats and a decent CAL. Nothing crazy, you really don't need 750 hp to be competitive at these events. If the car is down on power I'll add a blower or spray it.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 09:31 PM
I don t doubt that this car will be a whole lot of fun to drive but if this is a new build why start with leaf springs why not develop some type of road race 4 link?
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 10:29 PM
Had we put a Gen 3 engine in Tim's car it would've been faster and lighter. In hindsight that might have been a good decision. We spent $20K building a 427 inch SB that has a Viper type power curve, but $25K on a Gen 3 might have been a better investment. Of course, a project like that might not have ever gotten finished. The 427 build almost didn't make it out of the garage. Sometimes if you take on too much you end up with nothing. Working on these cars is way down the priority list so if the project gets too complex it runs out of steam and dies.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 10:37 PM
I here you AndyF I spent the same amount on my small block but used all race parts makes more hp then your 427 not sure about tq my max is 540 but has a real flat and broad touque curve. I am still developing this car but customer projects pay the bills
Posted By: ntstlgl1970
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 11:06 PM
There was a Conquest TSi (I know it's not a true Mopar)in the optima street car challenge at SEMA but I think it was an LS conversion, would be interested to see how it did..
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 11:16 PM
Quote:
I don t doubt that this car will be a whole lot of fun to drive but if this is a new build why start with leaf springs why not develop some type of road race 4 link?
Simple reasons really...
1) I don't think it's necessary.
2) I don't want to pay for it, new developments aren't free.
3) It's much more fun to beat people and say I still have leaf springs.
Being the underdog is much more fun and a lot more rewarding to me.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/27/14 11:58 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I don t doubt that this car will be a whole lot of fun to drive but if this is a new build why start with leaf springs why not develop some type of road race 4 link?
Simple reasons really...
1) I don't think it's necessary.
2) I don't want to pay for it, new developments aren't free.
3) It's much more fun to beat people and say I still have leaf springs.
Being the underdog is much more fun and a lot more rewarding to me.
I'm not against leafs just know my Hotchkis rears were overwhelmed with an engine similar to what's in the Taxi. 2nd gear roll ons the driveshaft would hit the floor. And my pinion angle was nose down enough to cause vibration letting off the throttle at 80 mph or more. Yes I have a longer than stock driveshaft, and its 3.5" diameter, but still that stuff doesn't help me to be fast.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 12:57 AM
Quote:
I think the biggest point that a lot of folks miss with Stielow's cars is that they are "true" cars as well. Tunes, heater, A/C, power options, traction control, ABS, ect. All this stuff adds up to a car that is not just fast, but does real car stuff. To top that off, he is a suspension engineer for GM and gets a lot of cool stuff to play with on his cars.
So until we have a suspension engineer who has worked at Chrysler for any extended amount of time to have access to piles of cutting edge technology, has built 15 up to date and modern designed set ups stuffed under a classic mopar, and then flogged said cars under the noses of the press, there flat out is not a mopar out there on the same level.
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 01:02 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I think the biggest point that a lot of folks miss with Stielow's cars is that they are "true" cars as well. Tunes, heater, A/C, power options, traction control, ABS, ect. All this stuff adds up to a car that is not just fast, but does real car stuff. To top that off, he is a suspension engineer for GM and gets a lot of cool stuff to play with on his cars.
So until we have a suspension engineer who has worked at Chrysler for any extended amount of time to have access to piles of cutting edge technology, has built 15 up to date and modern designed set ups stuffed under a classic mopar, and then flogged said cars under the noses of the press, there flat out is not a mopar out there on the same level.
Geeze... Give me some time. I'm working on it... 
Kidding. 
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 01:04 AM
I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 01:08 AM
Don't forget that Kyle and Stacy Tucker (dse) are also ex GM engineers. It's like one big happy Chevy family over there. And we get to purchase some leftover 6.1 parts to put on our 5.7 Challengers and become members of the Scat Pack lol. What a complete joke....
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 01:49 AM
Quote:
I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
x2
Stielow built cars are amazing.
So this weekend I outran a ZL1 Camaro along with a few supercars. Does that put my 'stock suspension' mopar on par with the Stielow built car?
What events do the Stielow Camaro's usually run in? Preferably long road courses and near Houston, TX. I'll go line up and give you a baseline.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 01:52 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
x2
Stielow built cars are amazing.
So this weekend I outran a ZL1 Camaro along with a few supercars. Does that put my 'stock suspension' mopar on par with the Stielow built car?
What events do the Stielow Camaro's usually run in? Preferably long road courses and near Houston, TX. I'll go line up and give you a baseline.
please do!!
Posted By: Jim_Lusk
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 02:01 AM
Dan, I've got the perfect car sitting beside my house to cut on (popular body style, too...67 Barracuda fastback), but my son can't afford that sort of "investment". The car spent a lot of its life as a drag car that we went autocrossing in after throwing some suspension at it. All of this with a big block (all iron 383 except intake), four speed, and streetable 3.55 gears. We were competitive except against the real well-sorted cars with more power...in CP...
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 02:02 AM
Tim W can add 100 hp by changing the cam and the carb. But then the torque band moves up and the rear gear needs to change. Doing that makes the car faster at a particular road course, but then the car becomes a lot less street friendly. The goal last time was to go 160 mph on the front straight at PIR and drive it home.
If you want to be able to go faster than that and still drive it to the track you need to step up to a 5 or 6 speed trans. That wasn't in the budget for the current thrash. If his budget finds another $10K then it is fairly easy to add power, gear and a new trans. There aren't a lot of transmissions (maybe zero) that are easy to shift, reliable at 600 hp, and fit in an A-body. Maybe the new Passon box will work in this application but right now it is too new to know for sure. The Keisler stuff might have worked but there was always a lot of negative news floating around and now they are bankrupt. A T56 requires more fabrication than Tim was up for. Plus they are heavy and the 6th gear isn't really that useful.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 02:42 AM
Well my car is streetable makes more then 600 hp and has a viper T56 six speed and I did not cut the floor or firewall out I know that it's not up to the task of taking out a stielow built Camaro but does handle very well. Once I free up time from customer cars I plan to beet the GM boys at there own game by using there products. 1) my car is a early a body detroitspeed mustang front supension so I will be keep my factory rails but will be tied into my cage 2) detoit speed Camaro rear 4 link all this without cutting my car to pcs
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 02:54 AM
Quote:
Dan, I've got the perfect car sitting beside my house to cut on (popular body style, too...67 Barracuda fastback), but my son can't afford that sort of "investment". The car spent a lot of its life as a drag car that we went autocrossing in after throwing some suspension at it. All of this with a big block (all iron 383 except intake), four speed, and streetable 3.55 gears. We were competitive except against the real well-sorted cars with more power...in CP...
Very cool! Ever take it to Nationals?
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:12 AM
I have been developing this car on my own time and dime I have had it out to many open track days for testing purposes really this is just a 100k toy that keeps me out of trouble as my wife will say lol I plan to bring it to a few good guys avents in the spring.
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:31 AM
Quote:
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I don t doubt that this car will be a whole lot of fun to drive but if this is a new build why start with leaf springs why not develop some type of road race 4 link?
Simple reasons really...
1) I don't think it's necessary.
2) I don't want to pay for it, new developments aren't free.
3) It's much more fun to beat people and say I still have leaf springs.
Being the underdog is much more fun and a lot more rewarding to me.
Hey Kevin...which car is faster on the track your taxi or E-bergs green brick?
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:39 AM
Quote:
I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
The only thing this thread is accomplishing is reminding me why I try not to comment on forums.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:48 AM
Quote:
The only thing this thread is accomplishing is reminding me why I try not to comment on forums.
Thanks for posting Kevin. Your input is greatly appreciated. Really appreciate your experienced perspective.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:50 AM
Quote:
Hey Kevin...which car is faster on the track your taxi or E-bergs green brick?
In the Bricks last state, I would say just about a dead heat. With the new 6.4 and some basic updates coming, Brick will be faster.
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 04:09 AM
Quote:
Thanks for posting Kevin. Your input is greatly appreciated. Really appreciate your experienced perspective.
Thanks, glad it's helping somebody.
Nice to see you are actually making it to events as well. If more people would just run their cars a lot of these debates would just die off.
Posted By: Jim_Lusk
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 04:20 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Dan, I've got the perfect car sitting beside my house to cut on (popular body style, too...67 Barracuda fastback), but my son can't afford that sort of "investment". The car spent a lot of its life as a drag car that we went autocrossing in after throwing some suspension at it. All of this with a big block (all iron 383 except intake), four speed, and streetable 3.55 gears. We were competitive except against the real well-sorted cars with more power...in CP...
Very cool! Ever take it to Nationals?
Nope, used to run it at Castle Air Base in 01-02. The 383 was pretty mild (probably not much more than 350hp), but it worked well enough to post respectable times running on Nascar slicks (we couldn't afford autocross tires). The car has been cut up pretty good. Alan still plans on running a big block (stroked 400 - we've got a standard bore 72 block in the garage), but anything is possible with enough money. The good thing about this car is that it left the factory with a slant and has been hacked on some and then hacked on some more.
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 07:01 AM
Quote:
Mark is a "perfect storm" of ingenuity and opportunity that I don't think exists at Mopar or Ford anymore. We would have to have had someone transplanting Viper tech into E-Bodies for the last 15 years to catch up to Stielow.
In the mid 90s when I was coming out of college it was all messed up. A GM recruiter in '92 promised to get me in to the intern program as soon as I made 60 hours. I was an ASE Certified Master Tech working my way through a Mechanical Engineering undergrad working full time, going to school full time and had a 4.0 GPA. The following year I followed up and he had been let go and they had a freeze on the program. I interviewed with Ford a few years later, but was not impressed at all by the company culture of the group I was talking to. At one point was talking to a Ford development guy who was willing to try to get me into the cylinder head development program. I was more interested in transmissions and integration than CFD. Chrysler was not hiring at all. So... I ended up in a different industry, one that actually pays well.
8-9 years ago I worked at a place where we were developing active suspension systems. We were also doing hybrid drivetrain development work. What DSE is doing is adapting production tech into older cars, it is not ahead of the curve. Stielow is doing good work. I like that he has at least added ABS and traction control. It would be even more impressive if he went all out with a stability control system (he is probably trying to do it now). I did some traction control, ABS, and tire modeling simulations in graduate school. We did a lot of interesting projects and testing in a vehicle dynamics course I took. Really interesting stuff. We make ABS controller chips for some of the big auto OEMs were I work now. I think I would have enjoyed very much doing the kind of work Stielow gets to do.
I have often felt that the aftermarket on our older cars across the board has been limited. I think that a smart enough system could be made that, with the right set-up could be on par with current traction control, ABS, and stability control. Put that in a light car with good tires and it will be pretty impressive. First issue is money. Second is time. It can all be done. Just wondering, how does someone like DSE fly low enough under the radar that they do not have to deal with the DOT and NTSB? Do these products fall under "off road use only" or some other gray area that makes it tacitly OK?
B/E-bodies? Go with the A-body and at least you can start with a weight advantage. I always wondered why so many people like those huge cars (just kidding guys).
I also wonder why DSE went with a 4 link? Is that a packaging compromise? Could a 3 link or truck arm put down better times? I see quite a few places where the design they are doing is made to work within the confines of a bolt in requirement. In the case of the rear it fits in with some welding and minor modification to the rear seats. I do not see any huge advantage other than they are leveraging production Corvette knuckles and have a few good dedicated engineers working on their systems. They also have a lot of inside connections, definitely does not hurt. Unfortunately the Mopar aftermarket probably can not support the weight of the overhead needed to compete directly. You guys are cheap and there are not enough of you.
Whatever happened to XV? They had a flurry of activity... I have not heard anything of them in a few years now. Were they not trying to do the same thing as DSE?
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 08:26 AM
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I don't understand the whole point of this Mopar VS Stielow thing.
If you took an old Mopar and threw away everything except the firewall and half the floor you could build the exact same thing Stielow built and end up with the same result.
A Gen 3 will make the same power as the Red thing, the T56 is a Viper spec transmission, custom pick up points for the suspension can be built, and a one-off chassis can be made.
Now that you've pulled a NASCAR thing and thrown away everything except for the name on the car what do you have to prove?
x2
Stielow built cars are amazing.
So this weekend I outran a ZL1 Camaro along with a few supercars. Does that put my 'stock suspension' mopar on par with the Stielow built car?
What events do the Stielow Camaro's usually run in? Preferably long road courses and near Houston, TX. I'll go line up and give you a baseline.
You got a ways to go my friend. But I like your ambition! Looking at your vids, probably 10-15 seconds. Don't be discouraged though, your car runs good.
He will probably show to some of the USCA events. We will be at Laguna Seca. Assuming a lot of the big dogs will be there.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 08:28 AM
Quote:
... I have often felt that the aftermarket on our older cars across the board has been limited. I think that a smart enough system could be made that, with the right set-up could be on par with current traction control, ABS, and stability control. Put that in a light car with good tires and it will be pretty impressive. First issue is money. Second is time. It can all be done. Just wondering, how does someone like DSE fly low enough under the radar that they do not have to deal with the DOT and NTSB? Do these products fall under "off road use only" or some other gray area that makes it tacitly OK?
...
I'm with you there.
It's too easy/common to get lots of HP nowdays on a street car. Old or new.
The hard part is controlling that HP on the street to make it usuable. And controlling it on the track for novice drivers.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:06 PM
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 03:06 PM
Quote:
You got a ways to go my friend. But I like your ambition! Looking at your vids, probably 10-15 seconds. Don't be discouraged though, your car runs good.
He will probably show to some of the USCA events. We will be at Laguna Seca. Assuming a lot of the big dogs will be there.
That was definitely a tongue in cheek comment by me.
I've got a long way to go. I'm currently 8-10 seconds behind well driven well balanced 'street' cars on 'street' tires in other run groups ('06 Z06 and Porsche GT3 on Nitto invos, S2000 on ZII's, etc), and 10-15-20 seconds behind those driven on R compound tires or true slicks (spec miatas, 06 Z06 on R6's, my instructors LS7 BMW, well sorted V8 miata with aero, well sorted viper ACR-X). To close that gap, I need driver improvement.
The only serious part was my willingness to line it up on the same track on the same day and see how it goes. Nothin like a baseline to work from!
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 04:44 PM
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Hey Kevin...which car is faster on the track your taxi or E-bergs green brick?
In the Bricks last state, I would say just about a dead heat. With the new 6.4 and some basic updates coming, Brick will be faster.
Do you know if Rick going to use the aluminum block in the build? To me that would be the biggest advantage from switching from the old small block.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 05:09 PM
Quote:
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
go for it, sounds like you have a plan so by all means. If you race a Camaro body full of DSE stuff with a Mopar body converted over to DSE stuff, what have you proven? That is the point that is missed.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 05:31 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
go for it, sounds like you have a plan so by all means. If you race a Camaro body full of DSE stuff with a Mopar body converted over to DSE stuff, what have you proven? That is the point that is missed.
I am not sure there is much of a point to be made. I do not run these events with a chip on my shoulder. I believe that most people in the P/T world understand the up hill battle we fight on the some of these bigger Mopars.
At the end of the day it comes down to this for me. I just drove a 1968 Dodge Charger around a road course, and they have to drive a Camaro. Good enough for me!
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 06:03 PM
Quote:
I just drove a 1968 Dodge Charger around a road course, and they have to drive a Camaro. Good enough for me!
Best quote in this thread
Posted By: Consulier
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 06:54 PM
Quote:
Do you know if Rick going to use the aluminum block in the build? To me that would be the biggest advantage from switching from the old small block.
No, there are cheaper ways to take 100 lbs out of that car.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 06:55 PM
Quote:
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
This was your original post:
Quote:
I know this is not a apples to apples comparison but I am interested to see what would happen not enough mopars running a modern suspension without cutting the car all up
Why not just be direct and ask for ideas and what it would take to be competitive with the Stielow Camaro?
It sounds like you have done some stuff to your car and taken it to track days? Seems like you have ideas and a plan already. Part of the car is already built? Sounds cool as hell.
Is there a reason to keep details from getting public?
Is this the same early 1964 valiant HT signet V200 you tried to sell a while back? You asked about the sale here, but this all pictures and ads were pulled.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 07:10 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Do you know if Rick going to use the aluminum block in the build? To me that would be the biggest advantage from switching from the old small block.
No, there are cheaper ways to take 100 lbs out of that car.
Aint that the truth...
Posted By: 67autocross
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Do you know if Rick going to use the aluminum block in the build? To me that would be the biggest advantage from switching from the old small block.
No, there are cheaper ways to take 100 lbs out of that car.
Dam I was hoping he would do a Gen 3 aluminum build, what other way could it be done...no way Rick hisself is going to go on a diet.
Posted By: AndyF
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 10:04 PM
It will be cool to see the Brick with a Gen 3 in it. It would have been fun to put a Gen 3 into Tim's car but neither of us had the appetite to tackle that project. Hopefully Rick is able to make it happen. More power, less weight and a better weight distribution should drop the lap times a bit.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 10:43 PM
It is a little bit of a project compared to running a small block but not THAT bad anymore once you see what some of us idiots have done wrong, it helps.
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 10:44 PM
Quote:
It will be cool to see the Brick with a Gen 3 in it. It would have been fun to put a Gen 3 into Tim's car but neither of us had the appetite to tackle that project. Hopefully Rick is able to make it happen. More power, less weight and a better weight distribution should drop the lap times a bit.
In all actuality the 3G hemi doesn't drop much weight over an aluminum headed LA motor. The 3G block itself is in the 190-195 lb range. Reported weights of 535-545 lb fully dressed and dry (including all accessories on the front)
That being said, it's a breeze to build a high power motor with one. Fitment sucks in an A body, though.
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 11:00 PM
You said:
Quote:
Well my car is streetable makes more then 600 hp and has a viper T56 six speed and I did not cut the floor or firewall out I know that it's not up to the task of taking out a stielow built Camaro but does handle very well. Once I free up time from customer cars I plan to beet the GM boys at there own game by using there products. 1) my car is a early a body detroitspeed mustang front supension so I will be keep my factory rails but will be tied into my cage 2) detoit speed Camaro rear 4 link all this without cutting my car to pcs
Then you said:
Quote:
The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
Let me get this straight...
You have a car with a Chrysler body, Chrysler engine, Ford front suspension, and GM rear suspension.
It looks like you have a bit of everything mashed together. Why would you call Mopar guys out if your critical bits are non-Mopar?
Posted By: 73MagDuster
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 11:20 PM
I was an engineer at Chrysler for almost 10 years starting in the late 90's. We were forbidden from anything like DSE and to some extent Stielow are doing on any Chrysler products. One of my friends at Chrysler had a side business making suspension and stiffening components for Fox and SN95 Mustangs since he couldn't do anything for Mopars.
We weren't forbidden from developing and building stuff for our own rides, it was the selling and profiting that was frowned upon.
I have a 73 Duster with a JTEC 5.9L Magnum and Ram electrical architecture I have been working on for 12 years, and I know it wouldn't be where it is today if I couldn't have called some engineers for guidance and help (not to discount guys on here like AndyF and Dr. Diff).
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 11:30 PM
Quote:
I was an engineer at Chrysler for almost 10 years starting in the late 90's. We were forbidden from anything like DSE and to some extent Stielow are doing on any Chrysler products. One of my friends at Chrysler had a side business making suspension and stiffening components for Fox and SN95 Mustangs since he couldn't do anything for Mopars.
We weren't forbidden from developing and building stuff for our own rides, it was the selling and profiting that was frowned upon.
I have a 73 Duster with a JTEC 5.9L Magnum and Ram electrical architecture I have been working on for 12 years, and I know it wouldn't be where it is today if I couldn't have called some engineers for guidance and help (not to discount guys on here like AndyF and Dr. Diff).
Very cool 1st hand info. Very insightful post. Thank you. 
I can sort of understand Chrysler's reasoning on this though. Most companies have similar policies and practices. Some written, some not.
Wonder if Steilow gets an OK from GM if it's viewed as PR and Marketing for GM? Like a place to showcase their aftermarket and production products (crate engines)?? And also to promote the GM and Camaro brands?? 
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/28/14 11:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I was an engineer at Chrysler for almost 10 years starting in the late 90's. We were forbidden from anything like DSE and to some extent Stielow are doing on any Chrysler products. One of my friends at Chrysler had a side business making suspension and stiffening components for Fox and SN95 Mustangs since he couldn't do anything for Mopars.
We weren't forbidden from developing and building stuff for our own rides, it was the selling and profiting that was frowned upon.
I have a 73 Duster with a JTEC 5.9L Magnum and Ram electrical architecture I have been working on for 12 years, and I know it wouldn't be where it is today if I couldn't have called some engineers for guidance and help (not to discount guys on here like AndyF and Dr. Diff).
Very cool 1st hand info. Very insightful post. Thank you.
I can sort of understand Chrysler's reasoning on this though. Most companies have similar policies and practices. Some written, some not.
Wonder if Steilow gets an OK from GM if it's viewed as PR and Marketing for GM? Like a place to showcase their aftermarket and production products (crate engines)?? And also to promote the GM and Camaro brands??
Thats why I think the whole thing about his 69 going head to head with a new ZL1 was nothing more than a marketing scam. I called BS to that out of the gate, just think how many Chevy idiots went out and bought a new ZL1 thinking "this thing is only a tick slower than Steilows car....". Pure marketing genius really.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 12:03 AM
My car currently is all mopar old and new but I plan to upgrade it using DSE parts due to the fact I have taking it as far as it can go with simple bolt on parts.
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 03:44 AM
Quote:
I called BS to that out of the gate, just think how many Chevy idiots went out and bought a new ZL1 thinking "this thing is only a tick slower than Steilows car....". Pure marketing genius really.
I'll finish the thought "... for a lot less money."
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 03:50 AM
Quote:
I can sort of understand Chrysler's reasoning on this though.
I think there rational is if they can't make money off their product, no one should be able to.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 04:59 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I can sort of understand Chrysler's reasoning on this though.
I think there rational is if they can't make money off their product, no one should be able to.
I'm thinking conflict of interests. You are at paid at work to make money for the company and produce the best products possible.
Now lets say you were employed designing cyl heads for Chrysler. And you also had a business selling CNC'd and/or hand ported cyl head. Now could you have financial gain by designing a sub par cyl head that would leave opportunity for your Cly porting business to sell more ported heads?
I'd say the opportunity is there. And the company does not want even the possibility of that. Nor the company having to spend time and resources qualifying who is or could be hurting the company designs for own personal gains.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 05:53 AM
Chrysler used to be a little more easy going with letting the engineers play outside the box "after hours". What was his name? Jimmy Addison? The Silver Bullet GTX? Here kid take the latest and greatest a$$ kicking technology and go do some spanking.
Posted By: 68cuda440
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 01/29/14 05:58 AM
Quote:
I'm thinking conflict of interests. You are at paid at work to make money for the company and produce the best products possible.
The comment was in jest. Anyway the real issue is that you are using company resources to profit yourself and not the company. For the most part any IP you develop belongs to your employer. If you use their resources and it is in the same line of business then legally they own your work. If you use their resources and it is not in their line of business it starts to become gray. If you do not use their resources and it is not in their line of business then you are most likely clear. It may also be dependent on your employment contract if you have such a thing. Partly in jest, one could argue that since Chrysler is pretty much absent with little meaningful presence in the aftermarket (especially compared to Ford or Chevrolet) that anything developed for the aftermarket is not related to their business.
Where I work, if I am to invent or desire to market something under my terms of employment I would first be obligated to my employer to give them first right of refusal. My employer is pretty fair in the sense that if it is not a business they have interest in they give you a pass. If it is, they will help you with the patent work and give you awards proportional to the financial impact. Likewise if I am involved in or have part ownership in a business that is in no way related or serves my company that is OK as long as I disclose this to them up front. For example, we own part of an irrigation supply wholesaler and my employer makes computer chips. Pretty clear this is not a conflict of interest.
Posted By: dezduster
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 02/02/14 11:59 PM
Would camber help in the rear? I remember Rusty Wallace of NASCAR got caught using some sort of trickery to camber the passenger side wheel on the rear. I never saw how but my thoughts were full float rear and a CV inside. Certainly this could help a solid rear perform better to a small degree.
Oh I am excited to see the return of the Flying Green Brick. One of my favorite cars and stories.
So something like this could add some toe in also.
http://www.racefactoryinc.com/racegarage/cvdriveplate.jpg
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 02/03/14 12:09 AM
Quote:
Would camber help in the rear? I remember Rusty Wallace of NASCAR got caught using some sort of trickery to camber the passenger side wheel on the rear. I never saw how but my thoughts were full float rear and a CV inside. Certainly this could help a solid rear perform better to a small degree.
Rear camber is easy...
http://www.msfracingcomponents.com.au/camberedfullfloaters/
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 02/03/14 12:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Would camber help in the rear? I remember Rusty Wallace of NASCAR got caught using some sort of trickery to camber the passenger side wheel on the rear. I never saw how but my thoughts were full float rear and a CV inside. Certainly this could help a solid rear perform better to a small degree.
Rear camber is easy...
http://www.msfracingcomponents.com.au/camberedfullfloaters/
That's big bucks.
The circle track guys to it with thier floater rears by having beveled splined ends on thier axles. Then just bend (heat/weld quench) the axle tubes.
You can get 1/8 degree just bending the banjo housing of a stock rear. It's not going to explode. But not going 100K miles either. I've heard of dedicated autocross cars getting 1/4 deg or more out of a stock straight axle. Trailered race cars basically.
Posted By: dezduster
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 02/03/14 12:34 AM
After I posted I went looking. Sure enough lots of builders to choose from. Possibly the next step for an aggressively driven solid axled daily driver track car.
For those with the means and desire to up the ante.
http://www.racefactoryinc.com/racegarage/cvdriveplate.jpg
Posted By: OzHemi
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 02/03/14 01:26 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Would camber help in the rear? I remember Rusty Wallace of NASCAR got caught using some sort of trickery to camber the passenger side wheel on the rear. I never saw how but my thoughts were full float rear and a CV inside. Certainly this could help a solid rear perform better to a small degree.
Rear camber is easy...
http://www.msfracingcomponents.com.au/camberedfullfloaters/
That's big bucks.
The circle track guys to it with thier floater rears by having beveled splined ends on thier axles. Then just bend (heat/weld quench) the axle tubes.
You can get 1/8 degree just bending the banjo housing of a stock rear. It's not going to explode. But not going 100K miles either. I've heard of dedicated autocross cars getting 1/4 deg or more out of a stock straight axle. Trailered race cars basically.
Road racing in Oz isn't cheap... 
but it is quite popular. Lots of cars built for it, sicne there are quite a few not only track, but open road races as well.
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/24/14 03:43 PM
Quote:
I was hoping this thread would see some good ideas but I think someone has already said it. The mopar guys are to cheap or don t like change/different the point was there is no need to cut the car up or continue to use stock type parts to make it handle.
From my perspective, I see it as the original Mopar designs being much more capable and not requiring as much work to be effective as the original Chevy and Ford designs. Think about it, in 1966 when Trans Am first started and was predominately independants, Chrysler won 50% of the O-2 races. Once Ford and Chevy stepped in and began lobbying for rule changes to allow changes to pick up points and alterations to the stock layouts, only then did they begin the dominance that carried through the rest of the series. That upgrade and modification mindset has continued to this day to overcome OEM design deficits. That isn't to say Mopar doesn't have their own issues, but we tend to start at a much higher point in the curve.
Quote:
My car currently is all mopar old and new but I plan to upgrade it using DSE parts due to the fact I have taking it as far as it can go with simple bolt on parts.
So, I see it this way...if you are using all DSE parts then the only real difference between your car and any Camaro will be the sheetmetal. If that is the objective, why not just start with a Howe chassis and hang the sheetmetal on it and make it easier to build and work on them messing around with the stock unibody structure?
This is part of my issue with "pro-touring" as a genre. The group think mentality that only new is worth a crap and the level of modification is such that so many guys are running such similar set ups, where is the real ingenuity and variety in equipment? How many $100k cars can be outrun by a $10k, well thought out and refined stock set up? Probably more than a few. I think Mary Pozzi has proven that theory out several times over.
If you have topped out your car in bolt on equipment, then get creative with engineering, geometry and fabrication. The biggest issue I see with a stock Mopar front suspension is the whole caster/camber compromise and the lack of t-bar rates, which actually lends itself well to the big bar, soft spring approach and the shock technology is there to support it.
Simply adapting DSE equipment to a Mopar is a comparable cop out to just buying a Camaro and bolting on DSE parts. It just takes a bit more cutting to do what your suggesting.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/24/14 04:26 PM
I'm so old school that I feel the spirit and intent of hot rodding is tossed aside when using abs, traction control, etc and then trying to compare cars/driving talent.
I'm not arguing its safer, its progress, its neat, but it mainly de-emphasizes the human component and amplifies the wallet factor, and we know where that leads.
Guess everyone has to play to their strengths. I also guess we could go back to wagon racing. I still don't have to like it.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/24/14 05:00 PM
But one thing I have to contend with is the VERY lousy trunion front suspension on the '69 and earlier AMC cars. Replacing that with a front coil over would be more for safety so it doesn't fold over under hard cornering rather than JUST for added capability for higher speeds in the corners. On the autocross course I've gotten acolades because of how good the AMX handles, but on a road course I don't think the front suspension would last a lap or 2.
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/24/14 05:02 PM
Quote:
But one thing I have to contend with is the VERY lousy trunion front suspension on the '69 and earlier AMC cars. Replacing that with a front coil over would be more for safely so it doesn't fold over under hard cornering rather than JUST for added capability for higher speeds in the corners.
If you ran a REAL car...
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/24/14 05:03 PM
Quote:
Quote:
But one thing I have to contend with is the VERY lousy trunion front suspension on the '69 and earlier AMC cars. Replacing that with a front coil over would be more for safely so it doesn't fold over under hard cornering rather than JUST for added capability for higher speeds in the corners.
If you ran a REAL car...
But I don't want to lower myself to a Mopar. 
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 06:33 PM
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 06:43 PM
How short of a wheel base? My car has 106
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 07:05 PM
Quote:
How short of a wheel base? My car has 106
Shorter the better for autox.
Gremlin and Spirit have only a 96" wheelbase. They came with V-8's. Would make a interesting E-street prepared car. If the six cly is significantly lighter than V-8, the six might be better in E-SP?
Hornet is 108"
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 08:18 PM
'68-69-70 AMX have a 97" wheel base. At least I think the '70 does also as it's a 2 seater as well. Weight is 3,100lbs. The '70 has a standard control arm suspension. The '69 and earlier had the trunnion, which is quite flimsy with the coil on top of the tower and a skinny 2 piece upper 'control arm'. The lower control arm is a slightly beefier.
http://www.skidmore.edu/~pdwyer/amc/wctrun/ 
Posted By: TheShow
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 09:25 PM
Guys guys easy fix the person buying Stielows camaros has an open checkbook.Get a Mopar guy with an open checkbook and problem resolved.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 10:27 PM
Sure show me a mopar guy who is not cheap lol I have 80,000 in my car and one of marks cars sold for 100k so maybe I show buy one lol
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/25/14 11:43 PM
Quote:
T OH, yeh... and the Gremlin???
Here ya go. Schwartz even makes a bolt in chassis for it so you can get all those cool Corvette parts the rest of us Mopar guys are too cheap to use.
Posted By: kotacars
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/26/14 12:31 AM
Sure good luck with that
Posted By: TC@HP2
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/26/14 07:54 PM
According to Dale Schwartz, its already been done. So, you won't be the first, but odds are the two of you won't show up at the same events.
Looking at the Schwartz chassis, it isn't radical surgery to alter the wheelbase and track width of their chassis to stick it under anything you want. Of course, I'm sure that is an added cost option to the already $25k completely optioned roller frame, but its a lot less than the $80k you are into with the Mopar junk.
Posted By: Pale_Roader
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/27/14 12:40 PM
Quote:
'68-69-70 AMX have a 97" wheel base. At least I think the '70 does also as it's a 2 seater as well. Weight is 3,100lbs. The '70 has a standard control arm suspension. The '69 and earlier had the trunnion, which is quite flimsy with the coil on top of the tower and a skinny 2 piece upper 'control arm'. The lower control arm is a slightly beefier.
The cars (68 to 70) seem similar enough... could you not just put a 70 suspension set-up into a 68-9? How about putting a 70 Javelin suspension into the earlier AMX? (easier to find than an AMX one)
Posted By: B-Body Bull
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/27/14 03:13 PM
Quote:
I'm sure that is an added cost option to the already $25k completely optioned roller frame, but its a lot less than the $80k you are into with the Mopar junk.
Just buy a 2013 Boss 302, YA fools, and save BIG MOPAR JUNK ? ? 
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/27/14 07:14 PM
Quote:
Quote:
'68-69-70 AMX have a 97" wheel base. At least I think the '70 does also as it's a 2 seater as well. Weight is 3,100lbs. The '70 has a standard control arm suspension. The '69 and earlier had the trunnion, which is quite flimsy with the coil on top of the tower and a skinny 2 piece upper 'control arm'. The lower control arm is a slightly beefier.
The cars (68 to 70) seem similar enough... could you not just put a 70 suspension set-up into a 68-9? How about putting a 70 Javelin suspension into the earlier AMX? (easier to find than an AMX one)
Frame, k-member, mounting points/methods are different. I hear it was done or tried to be done and it wouldn't work.
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/27/14 11:23 PM
Apparently someone did it by cutting out the shock/spring towers and welding in the later units. Too much work, I'd just go with the aftermarket coil spring/coilover k-member set up.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/28/14 04:24 PM
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/28/14 06:28 PM
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
Yep, them grapes must be sour, who'd want them.
Posted By: ScottSmith_Harms
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/28/14 09:21 PM
"Tim's Valiant" (Hence forth known as Scott's RedBrik). Is planning to run the Virginia City Hillclimb event Sept 13-14. Its going to be a hoot as it's being put on by the Ferrari Club....Hey, the Valiant is a "Redhead" why not
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 01:07 AM
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
Much better off waiting for the new improved, 2015 Mustang with the IRS..... 
Everywhere I look around my house I see new Camaros, what is up with that? 
Scott have a blast with that Valiant in the event!
Posted By: dangina
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 03:29 AM
Quote:
"Tim's Valiant" (Hence forth known as Scott's RedBrik). Is planning to run the Virginia City Hillclimb event Sept 13-14. Its going to be a hoot as it's being put on by the Ferrari Club....Hey, the Valiant is a "Redhead" why not
would love to hear a mopar beat a few high dollar ferrari's, don't beat too many - or they might not let you come back 
Posted By: amxautox
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 03:32 AM
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 04:24 PM
Regarding beating too many "other" staple cars, such as Ferarris, etc, I recall back in the mid-1990s at the SCCA Solo II National championship event held in Kansas (Topeka or Salina), a Viper convertable (~94) won the S/S (Super Stock) class which was/is traditionally dominated by all Corvettes. So, the Viper was eliminated for the next few years to compete in that same class with the Corvettes. Poor Corvette drivers couldn't tolerate their loss.
In other words, maybe old Mopars, in particular "bricks", could also become evicted from competition if they crush the traditional competition that's expected to win... ?
Good luck Scott! I hope you blow their doors off! Its been done before and can be repeated!
Posted By: Sneke_Eyez
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 04:59 PM
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
I always say "Mustangs are like ---holes, everyone has one and they all stink!"
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 09:04 PM
Quote:
MOPAR JUNK ? ?
Easy, killer.
"junk" is a trendy way to refer to car stuff. It's not really a derogatory term when used as slang. Very common among internet racers.
My junk just went 8.60 @ 182 mph
It still sounds insulting to many of us.
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 09:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
I always say "Mustangs are like ---holes, everyone has one and they all stink!"
I prefer my idea that there's at least one Mustang in every trailer park.
Posted By: Supercuda
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 09:53 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
I always say "Mustangs are like ---holes, everyone has one and they all stink!"
I prefer my idea that there's at least one Mustang in every trailer park.
That's Camaro.
Posted By: feets
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 09:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you buy that 2013 Mustang... then.. you're just another same Mustang that everyone else has.
I always say "Mustangs are like ---holes, everyone has one and they all stink!"
I prefer my idea that there's at least one Mustang in every trailer park.
That's Camaro.
My original words were Camaro but it works for both.
Posted By: B-Body Bull
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/29/14 10:24 PM
Quote:
Quote:
MOPAR JUNK ? ?
Easy, killer.
"junk" is a trendy way to refer to car stuff. It's not really a derogatory term when used as slang. Very common among internet racers.
My junk just went 8.60 @ 182 mph
It still sounds insulting to many of us.
"Junk", Trendy ? Well I must be a real hipster.----- I call pert near every thing "JUNK" fer years.----- Internet racers ? Hows that work ? 
________ I'm thinking that " Mopar Junk " is those 15 second restored HEMI(trademark) musclecars at the strip I seen once..
Posted By: prrc
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/30/14 04:38 AM
I have been hooked on the autocross every sense I got my first ride in the DSE Nova with Kyle Tucker. I have been building my car for about 2 years. Owning a hot rod shop of my own my car is all ways on the back burner. But I have promised my self to finish it for 2015. Here is a quick over view of the car. 1965 Dodge Dart. Motor 2.4 L srt4 neon motor turbo charged and built to make 600 WHP. Transmission GM MA5 5 speed transmission. Ford 9" rear end running 2.94 gears. 1.14 T bars out front wit a custom built splined front bar. Hyperco composite rear springs with rear sliders. Considering a watts link for the rear. car with me in it about 2600 at race weight. Still able to run the car on the street with pump gas. Not sure how we will stack up against the top runners but we are going to give it everything we have to keep pace.
Tim
Posted By: jcc
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/30/14 03:22 PM
Interesting combination, the Colin Chapman approach
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/30/14 05:38 PM
Quote:
I have been hooked on the autocross every sense I got my first ride in the DSE Nova with Kyle Tucker. I have been building my car for about 2 years. Owning a hot rod shop of my own my car is all ways on the back burner. But I have promised my self to finish it for 2015. Here is a quick over view of the car. 1965 Dodge Dart. Motor 2.4 L srt4 neon motor turbo charged and built to make 600 WHP. Transmission GM MA5 5 speed transmission. Ford 9" rear end running 2.94 gears. 1.14 T bars out front wit a custom built splined front bar. Hyperco composite rear springs with rear sliders. Considering a watts link for the rear. car with me in it about 2600 at race weight. Still able to run the car on the street with pump gas. Not sure how we will stack up against the top runners but we are going to give it everything we have to keep pace.
Tim
Sounds awesome Tim! Do you have pictures or a build thread somewhere?
Posted By: MuuMuu101
Re: Mark stielow Camaro vs tim werners valiant - 07/30/14 11:55 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I have been hooked on the autocross every sense I got my first ride in the DSE Nova with Kyle Tucker. I have been building my car for about 2 years. Owning a hot rod shop of my own my car is all ways on the back burner. But I have promised my self to finish it for 2015. Here is a quick over view of the car. 1965 Dodge Dart. Motor 2.4 L srt4 neon motor turbo charged and built to make 600 WHP. Transmission GM MA5 5 speed transmission. Ford 9" rear end running 2.94 gears. 1.14 T bars out front wit a custom built splined front bar. Hyperco composite rear springs with rear sliders. Considering a watts link for the rear. car with me in it about 2600 at race weight. Still able to run the car on the street with pump gas. Not sure how we will stack up against the top runners but we are going to give it everything we have to keep pace.
Tim
Sounds awesome Tim! Do you have pictures or a build thread somewhere?
Here's his build on FABO...
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=157546
To be honest, through some considerations and thoughts from other people on FABo, this was sort of the path I was thinking about taking for my '68 Dart. I wouldn't go as far as Tim would as I'm not interested in a pure race car. I'm kind of hoping to build my Dart to be a jack of all trades kind of car. I figured a turbo 2.0L or 2.4L with an overdrive transmission could put me in a spot where I could push about 400 hp at the crank, have a relatively light/balanced car front to rear, and get great gas mileage. It would be something I could race one day or take on a road trip the next.
Another build:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=158780