Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
#156348
11/25/08 06:54 AM
11/25/08 06:54 AM
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Long Island, New York
Tony H
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Every once in a while when my my son tries to start his car ( Usually when it has sat for more then 10 hours) He only gets a 'click' he attempts to Start the car a few times and finally the Starter kicks in. Right off, I'm thinking the Starter is going bad but I was wondering if the Starter Relay can 'switch' (so that's the Click he hears)but be dirty or old enough not to send power to the Starter Solenoid? He just cleaned the Battery Terminals when this started happening..no change. I will have him clean the wires on the Starter as well as the Relay. I guess next time it does it, I can have him Hot Wire directly across the Starter to see is it spins up or still Clicks. When the car does Crank, it is a strong Turn, not like the Starter is laboring.
Replace the relay first?
Last edited by Tony H; 11/25/08 07:19 AM.
'75 CJ5 with all glass body and a 350 Chevy SB '85 Chevy Stepside (the wife's) '89 Volvo All 100% maintained by me. '70 valiant DD for my son '74 Dart Swinger..Latest endeavor http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: JohnRR]
#156350
11/25/08 11:44 AM
11/25/08 11:44 AM
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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since it clicks several times when it acts up the next time after the 1st click STOP & down at the starter itself jump the 2 terminals being careful not to touch the starter case. If the starter is good then go back up to the relay & clean all connections incl ground as double R suggested & last would be to R&R the relay as you mentioned. I would be inclined to think that the relay is bad IF all 6 ends of the big cables are clean.
Last edited by RapidRobert; 11/25/08 11:56 AM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: RapidRobert]
#156351
11/25/08 01:22 PM
11/25/08 01:22 PM
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Long Island, New York
Tony H
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Quote:
since it clicks several times when it acts up the next time after the 1st click STOP & down at the starter itself jump the 2 terminals being careful not to touch the starter case. If the starter is good then go back up to the relay & clean all connections incl ground as double R suggested & last would be to R&R the relay as you mentioned. I would be inclined to think that the relay is bad IF all 6 ends of the big cables are clean.
Exactly what I would like to do but as Murphy's Law would have it, I'm not around when it seems to act up. I was hoping to either Jump start the car as you say or check for 12V at the Starter Solenoid when it just clicks. If no 12V at the Solenoid then it has to be the High Current side of the Relay not making good contact.
Ground: Good point. I will unbolt ,clean and reinstall the Relay itself to insure it is getting a good ground.
'75 CJ5 with all glass body and a 350 Chevy SB '85 Chevy Stepside (the wife's) '89 Volvo All 100% maintained by me. '70 valiant DD for my son '74 Dart Swinger..Latest endeavor http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: Tony H]
#156352
11/25/08 01:25 PM
11/25/08 01:25 PM
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Hampton, Ga.
70dart360
Green Meister
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Green Meister
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Hampton, Ga.
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If its clicking the relay is working. I'd check the cables from the relay to starter, and like said if he can jump across the starter lugs and see if it spins over. My bets are theres a bad spot in the starter.
70 Dart Swinger
72 D-100 440 shortbed
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#156354
11/25/08 08:58 PM
11/25/08 08:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Long Island, New York
Tony H
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You are right. If there was no Ground then the Windings would not pull in the contacts so there would be no click of the contacts. The Cables themselves are in Great Shape because I made my own 1.5 years ago. My son cleaned the Battery connections but tomorrow a.m. we have time to go through the Battery to Relay to Starter connections.
I'll check the Negative Cable to the Block as well.
I guess I was wondering ( since the Starter looked very new when we first got the car 2 years ago) if anyone had an issue where the Relay was clicking in but the contacts within the Relay was still giving a bad connection to the Starter?
'75 CJ5 with all glass body and a 350 Chevy SB '85 Chevy Stepside (the wife's) '89 Volvo All 100% maintained by me. '70 valiant DD for my son '74 Dart Swinger..Latest endeavor http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: 70dart360]
#156356
11/25/08 09:20 PM
11/25/08 09:20 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Quote:
If its clicking the relay is working. I'd check the cables from the relay to starter, and like said if he can jump across the starter lugs and see if it spins over. My bets are theres a bad spot in the starter.
Nonsense. Any relay or solenoid can "click" (pull in) and have burned or dirty contacts and not activate the load
Since the relay seems to be working, it's either the wiring between the relay and the starter, or the starter itself, or in rare possibilities, I've seen the main battery cable or the smaller solenoid wire "break" inside the eyelets right near the flex point at the starter.
Since relays don't cost much, You might gamble on replacing that, and wait. Teach him how to jumper across the RELAY. (Short the only two exposed terminals with anything, including a coin. You may get a small inductive jolt from the "coil effect" of the solenoid.
If it won't crank when jumpering the relay, you should be able (on a 6) to do the same thing at the starter.
IF IT CRANKS when jumpered at the starter but NOT at the relay, then something is wrong with the small wire (eyelets/wire connection)
If it won't crank at the starter, it's either the starter, or an iffy main cable.
NOTE:
You can't assume that because the solenoid doesn't pull in, that it's automatically the solenoid. Both (older at least) GM and Mopar solenoids have two windings, a "pull in" and a lighter "hold in" winding.
The pull in winding is in SERIES through the starter. What this causes is, when the sol. gets voltage from the relay, this heavy pull in winding slams the solenoid in. AS SOON as the main solenoid contacts close, that current through the "pull in" winding is stopped, and the solenoid is held in by the lighter winding which is grounded.
IF THE STARTER is bad (won't draw current, IE bad brushes) the pull in winding won't slam in, and you get only a small click from the relay
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: 70dart360]
#156358
11/27/08 09:43 AM
11/27/08 09:43 AM
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Posts: 230
Long Island, New York
Tony H
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Thanks guys. After letting the car sit all night This is usually when he has the issue. I went and put a Meter on the Solenoid wire on the Starter. My son turned the ignition key. I heard a loud click ( louder than just the relay) and I got voltage to the Starter Solenoid.
After a few tries the car started to crank.
The Starter was bad, The Gear would jump out ( The Loud click) but would not spin. My guess is the Motor windings or the Brushes were going bad. After many phone calls we actually found a store that had a Starter. I guess Time will tell verify if that was the whole problem. It Started when we tested it and it started when he left for Work.
ONE MORE ISSUE. After the install when we first started it there was a hint of contact with something. The one steel Shim is in between the Starter and the Trani. It was not a hard contact at all and it went away in about 5 seconds. I wonder if I should put another shim in there or maybe loosen the Starter and lift it up away from the Flywheel a bit with whatever slop is in the holes in the Starter.
Last edited by Tony H; 11/27/08 09:44 AM.
'75 CJ5 with all glass body and a 350 Chevy SB '85 Chevy Stepside (the wife's) '89 Volvo All 100% maintained by me. '70 valiant DD for my son '74 Dart Swinger..Latest endeavor http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: Tony H]
#156359
11/27/08 11:51 AM
11/27/08 11:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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You got it huh  . I would use the one shim thats in there now & loosen the 2 bolts & pull the starter away from the block & tighten them back up as you keep tension on the starter body.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: 70dart360]
#156360
11/27/08 12:03 PM
11/27/08 12:03 PM
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Quote:
Nonsense. Any relay or solenoid can "click" (pull in) and have burned or dirty contacts and not activate the load
Nonsense  The relay pulls in and the starter clicks, that eliminates that. And we agree on everything else, I just did it in fewer words. 
Please don't send people on wild goose chases. He didn't say for sure that the starter solenoid was "clicking" (pulling in) therefore in a worst case this means that the click may ONLY be the firewall relay, and therefore the relay contacts could be bad, a completely viable problem.
Furthermore, if you knew that the solenoid was pulling in, it would do no good to jump the thing at the starter, because you've already "found" that the solenoid contacts or the starter motor itself is bad.
Here's the thing you need to understand about me. I refuse to condone throwing parts at a problem. I've seen guys after guys with one of these problems, so they run out and buy a battery or starter, and find that didn't fix it. So next we buy the other most expensive part, and finally, start really looking for the problem.
I do realize that intermittents are tough
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Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6
[Re: RapidRobert]
#156362
11/27/08 12:22 PM
11/27/08 12:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 230
Long Island, New York
Tony H
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Quote:
You got it huh . I would use the one shim thats in there now & loosen the 2 bolts & pull the starter away from the block & tighten them back up as you keep tension on the starter body.
That's what I was talking about doing. I just finished. It wound up that the shim that my son sanded clean before the install the other day had the slightest of bend in it. It was bouncing off the Flex Plate nuts. A simple little bend to sorrect it and we are All good.
Thanks for everyones thoughts
'75 CJ5 with all glass body and a 350 Chevy SB '85 Chevy Stepside (the wife's) '89 Volvo All 100% maintained by me. '70 valiant DD for my son '74 Dart Swinger..Latest endeavor http://home.lyse.net/brox/TonyPage4.html
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Either way, glad he got it fixed.