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Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6

Posted By: Tony H

Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 10:54 AM

Every once in a while when my my son tries to start his car ( Usually when it has sat for more then 10 hours) He only gets a 'click' he attempts to Start the car a few times and finally the Starter kicks in. Right off, I'm thinking the Starter is going bad but I was wondering if the Starter Relay can 'switch' (so that's the Click he hears)but be dirty or old enough not to send power to the Starter Solenoid? He just cleaned the Battery Terminals when this started happening..no change. I will have him clean the wires on the Starter as well as the Relay. I guess next time it does it, I can have him Hot Wire directly across the Starter to see is it spins up or still Clicks. When the car does Crank, it is a strong Turn, not like the Starter is laboring.
Replace the relay first?
Posted By: JohnRR

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 01:16 PM

Check the solenoid grounding to the body , the housing itself .
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 03:44 PM

since it clicks several times when it acts up the next time after the 1st click STOP & down at the starter itself jump the 2 terminals being careful not to touch the starter case. If the starter is good then go back up to the relay & clean all connections incl ground as double R suggested & last would be to R&R the relay as you mentioned. I would be inclined to think that the relay is bad IF all 6 ends of the big cables are clean.
Posted By: Tony H

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 05:22 PM

Quote:

since it clicks several times when it acts up the next time after the 1st click STOP & down at the starter itself jump the 2 terminals being careful not to touch the starter case. If the starter is good then go back up to the relay & clean all connections incl ground as double R suggested & last would be to R&R the relay as you mentioned. I would be inclined to think that the relay is bad IF all 6 ends of the big cables are clean.




Exactly what I would like to do but as Murphy's Law would have it, I'm not around when it seems to act up. I was hoping to either Jump start the car as you say or check for 12V at the Starter Solenoid when it just clicks. If no 12V at the Solenoid then it has to be the High Current side of the Relay not making good contact.

Ground: Good point. I will unbolt ,clean and reinstall the Relay itself to insure it is getting a good ground.
Posted By: 70dart360

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 05:25 PM

If its clicking the relay is working. I'd check the cables from the relay to starter, and like said if he can jump across the starter lugs and see if it spins over. My bets are theres a bad spot in the starter.
Posted By: Jim_Lusk

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/25/08 10:54 PM

The ground on the relay is not your problem. You wouldn't get a click, plus only original manual trans cars (and not all of them) were grounded through the case of the relay.

It is most likely a low voltage problem (which could be a bad connection reducing the voltage to the starter) or a bad starter or a starter with grounding issues (loose maybe).
Posted By: Tony H

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/26/08 12:58 AM

You are right. If there was no Ground then the Windings would not pull in the contacts so there would be no click of the contacts. The Cables themselves are in Great Shape because I made my own 1.5 years ago. My son cleaned the Battery connections but tomorrow a.m. we have time to go through the Battery to Relay to Starter connections.
I'll check the Negative Cable to the Block as well.
I guess I was wondering ( since the Starter looked very new when we first got the car 2 years ago) if anyone had an issue where the Relay was clicking in but the contacts within the Relay was still giving a bad connection to the Starter?
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/26/08 01:14 AM

Quote:

I guess I was wondering ( since the Starter looked very new when we first got the car 2 years ago) if anyone had an issue where the Relay was clicking in but the contacts within the Relay was still giving a bad connection to the Starter?


happened once in my career
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/26/08 01:20 AM

Quote:

If its clicking the relay is working. I'd check the cables from the relay to starter, and like said if he can jump across the starter lugs and see if it spins over. My bets are theres a bad spot in the starter.





Nonsense. Any relay or solenoid can "click" (pull in) and have burned or dirty contacts and not activate the load

Since the relay seems to be working, it's either the wiring between the relay and the starter, or the starter itself, or in rare possibilities, I've seen the main battery cable or the smaller solenoid wire "break" inside the eyelets right near the flex point at the starter.

Since relays don't cost much, You might gamble on replacing that, and wait. Teach him how to jumper across the RELAY. (Short the only two exposed terminals with anything, including a coin. You may get a small inductive jolt from the "coil effect" of the solenoid.

If it won't crank when jumpering the relay, you should be able (on a 6) to do the same thing at the starter.

IF IT CRANKS when jumpered at the starter but NOT at the relay, then something is wrong with the small wire (eyelets/wire connection)

If it won't crank at the starter, it's either the starter, or an iffy main cable.

NOTE:

You can't assume that because the solenoid doesn't pull in, that it's automatically the solenoid. Both (older at least) GM and Mopar solenoids have two windings, a "pull in" and a lighter "hold in" winding.

The pull in winding is in SERIES through the starter. What this causes is, when the sol. gets voltage from the relay, this heavy pull in winding slams the solenoid in. AS SOON as the main solenoid contacts close, that current through the "pull in" winding is stopped, and the solenoid is held in by the lighter winding which is grounded.

IF THE STARTER is bad (won't draw current, IE bad brushes) the pull in winding won't slam in, and you get only a small click from the relay
Posted By: 70dart360

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/26/08 02:20 AM

Quote:

Nonsense. Any relay or solenoid can "click" (pull in) and have burned or dirty contacts and not activate the load




Nonsense The relay pulls in and the starter clicks, that eliminates that. And we agree on everything else, I just did it in fewer words.
Posted By: Tony H

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/27/08 01:43 PM

Thanks guys. After letting the car sit all night This is usually when he has the issue. I went and put a Meter on the Solenoid wire on the Starter. My son turned the ignition key. I heard a loud click ( louder than just the relay) and I got voltage to the Starter Solenoid.
After a few tries the car started to crank.

The Starter was bad, The Gear would jump out ( The Loud click) but would not spin. My guess is the Motor windings or the Brushes were going bad. After many phone calls we actually found a store that had a Starter. I guess Time will tell verify if that was the whole problem. It Started when we tested it and it started when he left for Work.
ONE MORE ISSUE. After the install when we first started it there was a hint of contact with something. The one steel Shim is in between the Starter and the Trani. It was not a hard contact at all and it went away in about 5 seconds. I wonder if I should put another shim in there or maybe loosen the Starter and lift it up away from the Flywheel a bit with whatever slop is in the holes in the Starter.
Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/27/08 03:51 PM

You got it huh . I would use the one shim thats in there now & loosen the 2 bolts & pull the starter away from the block & tighten them back up as you keep tension on the starter body.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/27/08 04:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Nonsense. Any relay or solenoid can "click" (pull in) and have burned or dirty contacts and not activate the load




Nonsense The relay pulls in and the starter clicks, that eliminates that. And we agree on everything else, I just did it in fewer words.





Please don't send people on wild goose chases. He didn't say for sure that the starter solenoid was "clicking" (pulling in) therefore in a worst case this means that the click may ONLY be the firewall relay, and therefore the relay contacts could be bad, a completely viable problem.

Furthermore, if you knew that the solenoid was pulling in, it would do no good to jump the thing at the starter, because you've already "found" that the solenoid contacts or the starter motor itself is bad.

Here's the thing you need to understand about me. I refuse to condone throwing parts at a problem. I've seen guys after guys with one of these problems, so they run out and buy a battery or starter, and find that didn't fix it. So next we buy the other most expensive part, and finally, start really looking for the problem.

I do realize that intermittents are tough
Posted By: 70dart360

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/27/08 04:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I guess I was wondering ( since the Starter looked very new when we first got the car 2 years ago) if anyone had an issue where the Relay was clicking in but the contacts within the Relay was still giving a bad connection to the Starter?


happened once in my career




4406pack, this is the reason I said what I said. I've never seen it on mopar in my career (25 years). Not saying its not possible, but HIGHLY unlikely. Either way, glad he got it fixed.
Posted By: Tony H

Re: Between Ignition Key and Starter solenoid '70 S/6 - 11/27/08 04:22 PM

Quote:

You got it huh . I would use the one shim thats in there now & loosen the 2 bolts & pull the starter away from the block & tighten them back up as you keep tension on the starter body.



That's what I was talking about doing. I just finished. It wound up that the shim that my son sanded clean before the install the other day had the slightest of bend in it. It was bouncing off the Flex Plate nuts. A simple little bend to sorrect it and we are All good.
Thanks for everyones thoughts
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