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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: Quicktree]
#1555135
01/04/14 11:59 PM
01/04/14 11:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Washington
skrews
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Washington
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so what are t&d and jesel?
Call them and find out 
that tells me you never used any  anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?
Bearing type. I believe T&D has rockers for std offset BB single shaft. Jesel is likely all individual shaft type stuff. Both are top O line gear with pricing to reflect just that.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: Quicktree]
#1555136
01/05/14 04:48 AM
01/05/14 04:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
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so what are t&d and jesel?
Call them and find out
that tells me you never used any anyone know if they are bushed or bearings?
For that kind of coin , the answer is self evident.
I have roller H.S. and T&D's.......they both drip quality , but the T&D's leave a puddle. 
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: upnover]
#1555138
01/05/14 02:42 PM
01/05/14 02:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not. The original idea of the non bushed Harland Sharp came about when I approached H/S, as I saw Crane going under, and was looking for a option that perhaps I could make affordably, to replace the Crane Golds. At that time, it didnt appear Crane ( S&S now) was going to be coming back anytime soon. The Indy ( Dove rockers) werent anyones favorite, the Probes were being sold off, whith some of the Fords going to one guy, and ultimately the Mopar Probes being bought out by Dave Hughes. At that time, I also didnt know how soon the Hughes would be up and running, nor if they would be making any changes to the Probe rockers. As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly. I decided to see if we could develop a new UN BUSHED rocker, using the Harland Sharp extrusions, that would be a replacement for the Crane Golds. I spent several months going back and forth with ideas, testing on different heads, measurements etc. Dwayne Porter was also involved, as I valued his input, and we always bounced ideas of each other, so we came up with what I thought was a good rocker, within a price point that would work, and be of decent quality, and good value. What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads. My focus at that time was on Edelbrock and 906 style heads, as I thought thats where the market for that style of rockers would fit best. The biggest challenge was going to be trying to find a decent rocker shaft and adjuster screws.H/S wanted to use a different color anodizing, or perhaps even natural aluminum color, to differentiate from their premium roller rockers. In fact, they didnt even want to call them H/S rockers, but simply private brand them. I still have all the rockers, demos, and prototype pieces, which I can post up when I get to the shop again. Now for the fun. As I was doing all this, and never mentioned to me ( which I have my doubts about anyhow), their all of a sudden was " another" party, doing " the same thing". Sparing a lot of boring details, it appeared that my work was used for another supplier, that had deeper pockets than me, and next thing I know, my efforts appeared to be used to help someone who was going to order more sets than I could afford. I'll stop at this point with my comments...lol...and let you all read between the lines from here. I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be. Fast forward to current times, and I see no need for these products over the last few years, as Crane has re-introduced their gold rockers, and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application. And now you know, the " rest of the story"....
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1555139
01/05/14 06:28 PM
01/05/14 06:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.
Yeah, me either, but.......
I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable Mopar guys on here, but I think the whole rocker geometry issue is wildly misunderstood. I have some questions.
Quote:
As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.
Why such a huge proponent of HS rockers? Are you a dealer or otherwise make a profit off of promoting their product? Why not promote T&D, Jesel, or ProForm strongly? I won't question the quality of their materials, but I will question the validity of their design as being superior to any other roller rocker.
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What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.
How can this not be a problem? A BBC has a valve angle of 26 degrees versus a BBM at 15 degrees. This is why I mentioned in another thread about lash adjusters being off 10 degrees or more. The adjuster boss will be too high (too many degrees from the roller pinion-to-shaft c-line) and have an adjuster angle that is also too high when proper geometry is achieved.
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I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.
How does the lateral location of the roller axle have anything to do with proper geometry? That is nothing but a change in fulcrum length. Any fulcrum length rocker can be used on any cylinder head, provided it fits the confines of the head itself and clears the spring/retainer, simply (or not so simply) by moving the pivot location laterally to locate the roller on the valve. I still haven't heard a coherent explanation how that affects or corrects geometry. Proper geometry is achieved by raising or lowering the shaft and is almost always raised when using a roller rocker.
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and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.
What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.
I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.
I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.
Let the skewering begin   
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: B3RE]
#1555141
01/05/14 07:54 PM
01/05/14 07:54 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Mike,
It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: B3RE]
#1555143
01/05/14 08:22 PM
01/05/14 08:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Quote:
Quote:
I wasnt going to post on this, then decided, what the hel*, why not.
Yeah, me either, but.......
I know there are a lot of very knowledgeable Mopar guys on here, but I think the whole rocker geometry issue is wildly misunderstood. I have some questions.
Quote:
As many of you know, I was a big proponent of the Harland Sharp rockers, always had good luck with them, and promoted them strongly.
Why such a huge proponent of HS rockers? Are you a dealer or otherwise make a profit off of promoting their product? Why not promote T&D, Jesel, or ProForm strongly? I won't question the quality of their materials, but I will question the validity of their design as being superior to any other roller rocker.
Quote:
What I ended up using,wwas a BBC rocker body, bored to fit the valve centerline and dimensions of the BBM heads.
How can this not be a problem? A BBC has a valve angle of 26 degrees versus a BBM at 15 degrees. This is why I mentioned in another thread about lash adjusters being off 10 degrees or more. The adjuster boss will be too high (too many degrees from the roller pinion-to-shaft c-line) and have an adjuster angle that is also too high when proper geometry is achieved.
Quote:
I also got them to start making rockers that actually fit the geometry of the Edelbrock and Stealth heads, which they now offer as an option, and is really the corredct rocker to use instead fo the standard series, which fit iron heads better.I wanst happy witht he fitment, so did some measureing and gave them a dimension to move the axles where they need to be.
How does the lateral location of the roller axle have anything to do with proper geometry? That is nothing but a change in fulcrum length. Any fulcrum length rocker can be used on any cylinder head, provided it fits the confines of the head itself and clears the spring/retainer, simply (or not so simply) by moving the pivot location laterally to locate the roller on the valve. I still haven't heard a coherent explanation how that affects or corrects geometry. Proper geometry is achieved by raising or lowering the shaft and is almost always raised when using a roller rocker.
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and Hughes has put out a nice quality rocker, which is one of the best bargains out there in my opinion, for THAT TYPE of application.
What is "THAT TYPE" of application? As long as the rocker has proper geometry (not roller placement) and is strong enough, I would use it in any application. 99.999999% of the time, the geometry is not correct just bolted on, so it will have to be corrected anyway. That is no exaggeration, BTW.
I think too many Mopar guys have gotten caught up in the hype surrounding HS rockers and have spent too much money on rockers that aren't any better in design than the budget rockers on the market, and in some cases worse.
I know there are a lot of HS fans on here and I am going to get skewered repeatedly, but at the end of the day, 2+2 still equals 4, and geometry is still math.
Let the skewering begin
I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ?  Ron
Last edited by 383man; 01/05/14 08:23 PM.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1555144
01/05/14 08:32 PM
01/05/14 08:32 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Mike,
It would have been easier if you judt called me a total jerk*of. That would have saved you a lot of typing. I am certainly not a builder of your ability, so I will simply sit back, and allow you to show us a collage of your Mopars that you have built. You are right,you caught me trying to pull a fast one over on all the Moparts members. I need to leave so I can go back to college and apparently get an education like yours. Thank you for your kind words.
Todd see if you can get a group rate on the schooling as I need some too. 
No sir, I'm not into name calling, and I was not beating you up. I find you to be one of the more knowledgeable people on this forum. But, I said that rocker geometry was misunderstood among many Mopar people and I stand by that assertion. That is not a slam. I am simply offering free advice and trying to get people to think. When someone draws a logical conclusion, it is almost always correct.
Rocker arm design is largely the same from one brand to another, although quality of material and machining may vary a great deal. That is why HS rockers may last longer, but they do not have better geometry.
I apologize for offending you. I only want the best for Mopar fans, just as you do.
BTW, when did it become a bad thing to have an education?
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: B3RE]
#1555146
01/05/14 10:02 PM
01/05/14 10:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron
Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.
I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.
so whats your idea of a good Mopar rocker?
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: Quicktree]
#1555148
01/05/14 11:26 PM
01/05/14 11:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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I dont know if I missed something here but I dont see why all the negative comments ? The man (CWE) was just posting the info and some of his opinion about the subject here. Isnt that why we are here as everyone has the right to voice thier opinion or post the info they know about it. I do not see where the man offended anyone ? Ron
Ron, I wasn't trying to be negative, a bit emphatic maybe.
I just don't understand the following HS rockers have among the Mopar crowd at large. Does HS make their Mopar rockers out of some exclusive material that isn't used for GM or Ford rockers? I doubt it, so that's why I wandered why they are strongly promoted by Mopar guys and yet don't have that kind of standing in the rest of the automotive world.
so whats your idea of a good Mopar rocker?
My idea of a good Mopar rocker is far broader than just Harland Sharps. However, none of the rockers that just bolt on to the cast in pedestal type heads are worth a hoot without the geometry being corrected. Proper geometry is far more than the rocker itself. Most Moparts members would laugh at someone who insisted they had 10:1 compression just because it said so on the box of pistons. We all know, or should know, that there are many other variables that need to be considered. The same thing applies to rocker geometry. It's not all in the rocker, just like compression is not just in the piston.
The reason I referenced ProForm rockers, is because I corrected geometry on a motor with them installed over a year ago. No problems to date and they are fine in their proper application.
In short, the rocker that gives the needed strength for the best price is my idea of a good Mopar rocker. But, to say they have proper geometry would not be correct.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: B3RE]
#1555152
01/06/14 01:42 PM
01/06/14 01:42 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
Performance Only
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,091
Delray beach, Florida
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I guess I need a keyboard that has a "tone" key so I am not interpreted as being a jerk. That is not my intention and is, in fact, more of a emphatic plea to please, for the sake of your motor, think about this stuff.
I don't post here very often but I do read many of the posts nonetheless. You come off as a real jackazz know it all most of the time to push your own agenda to sell your products.
I don't need a "tone" key because I have a tendency to speak what's on my mind and if I offend someone, it's usually my intention to do so, just like it is yours.
You seem to think you're the only person on this entire site that understands rocker arm geometry and the math to go along with it. Sorry buddy, you'd be dead wrong on that. You seem to have this natural gift, or propensity if you will, of coming off as holier than thou, thinking everyone else here must be stupid or inept.
The fact of the matter is that there are very few, if any, rocker arm components that are truly perfect out of the box that will work perfectly for every situation. I've been making tapered and offset tapered shims for many years to correct those issues when they don't fall into acceptable standards. The key here is what is deemed "acceptable" for the application. Now keep in mind I've probably only installed fewer than 100 sets of HS rocker arms, but you know what, none of them have shown to be "unacceptable" in geometry and none of those sets if corrected would've amounted to a hill of beans in better longevity, strength or valve train stability. Perhaps that's why those rockers are so highly regarded by most.
Lastly, if you have a point to make, perhaps you could show people how you went about correcting the geometry on those HS rockers for a given situation instead of implying that someone promotes only because they may sell them or make a profit by selling them. I sell all of the major brands of rocker arms, so I have no agenda whatsoever other than to tell you, you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.
machine shop owner and engine builder
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: 70satelliteguy]
#1555153
01/06/14 01:45 PM
01/06/14 01:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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So after all of this discussion I am wondering  . I purchased the "limited edition" Bushed Harland rockers from Mancini racing to go on my mild street build 440 with 440 Source heads.I am planning on putting the motor in this winter. Did I make a mistake?
Mike
No, you're probably good. Just verify the side-to-side clearance, make sure the shafts have been unplugged and cleaned out properly, and expect custom-length pushrods will be required to match the rockers.
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Re: tell me about harland sharp rockers- roller vs bushed
[Re: Performance Only]
#1555154
01/06/14 01:47 PM
01/06/14 01:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 596
Mass.
80fbody
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 596
Mass.
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you may want to think things through the next time you choose to insult someone who probably has 100 times more experience and dedication to engine building and motorsports in general.
Heck ya. Lay the smack down.
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