Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1547311
12/14/13 01:30 PM
12/14/13 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,010 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
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Quote:
Yes, street/strip. 10.5 to 1. I know the pistons are heavy, but they are what I have to work with.
As said before, the rings are much thicker than what they need to be. This causes two problems. The ring drag is very high, and costs a lot of power. Also, that extra ring drag really wears on the cylinder walls, shortening the life of the motor. If it were me, I would do what I had to to sell the TRWs and buy some newer lighter forged pistons with narrow ( 1/16 or less) rings. If you really want to stick with the TRWs, then stay at or below about 6000/6200 rpm. Cams as wild as a 590 mopar will make good power shifting at 6,000 to 6200 rpm with the stock port window. If this is a street motor more than strip, I would use a performer RPM and either an 800 or 850 Holley for the most hp. I would not go with a single plane intake unless the launch rpm was at least 4500 plus. If you go with a milder cam, 750 cfm. A 1 7/8 or 2 inch header, with long (40 or more) primarys is best. A collector length of 24 inch would be a good starting point.
Last edited by gregsdart; 12/14/13 09:51 PM.
8..603 156 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1547312
12/14/13 03:29 PM
12/14/13 03:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 168 Moparts
SSDart
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Yes, street/strip. 10.5 to 1. I know the pistons are heavy, but they are what I have to work with.
Are the RPM rods press fit? or floating??.........not sure how this is going to work.....
If you are going to run the TRW piston then keep the RPM reasonable (6000)
possible options. -get the pistons lightened -back cut the rings - or use spacers and a narrower ring......
options to
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: Joes66dart]
#1547316
12/15/13 05:12 AM
12/15/13 05:12 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141 junction city oregon
viperblue72
OP
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I would also feel better about different pistons at this point. I am just being impatient. Ok let's see if I can come up with a plan. 10.5 ross flat top pistons rpm rods source heads, get them ported, rpm intake, Solid lifter cam 255ish@050 ground on 108 isky rockers holley 950. 1 7/8 unknown headers. I have all of these parts except the camshaft and pistons. Ill plan on a 3800ish stall 4.10 dana 295/65 drag radials 3500 pound cuda. Sound good?
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1547317
12/15/13 09:19 AM
12/15/13 09:19 AM
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Joined: Sep 2013
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SSDart
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I would also feel better about different pistons at this point. I am just being impatient. Ok let's see if I can come up with a plan. 10.5 ross flat top pistons rpm rods source heads, get them ported, rpm intake, Solid lifter cam [Email]255ish@050[/Email] ground on 108 isky rockers holley 950. 1 7/8 unknown headers. I have all of these parts except the camshaft and pistons. Ill plan on a 3800ish stall 4.10 dana 295/65 drag radials 3500 pound cuda.
Sound good?
I would go 245 255 110 on the cam straight up... yes sounds good
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: SSDart]
#1547320
12/16/13 02:38 AM
12/16/13 02:38 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,213 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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My reasoning on the closer lobe centers and advancing the opening of both the intake and exhaust is based on years of drag racing and engine dyno tests on N/A Mopar V8 with stock type heads where we have tried different lobe centers with the same lobes on different cams and then advanced and retarded those same cams on the dyno. A fellow long time Mopar stock and SS racer told me years ago to focus on the first hundred feet of the 1/4 mile for the best results I found out along the way, sometimes the hardway, he was correct The production heads on the Mopar V8 BB and SB motors limit how much air the motor will see at WOT, once they have reach max flow it is time to shift the tranny to get the motor back under the peak HP RPM(curve), what I have seen is most of those type motors like to be shifted between 5500 and 6400 RPM When a freind of mines (and good customer) NHRA legal record holding 1970 SB E body Challenger can run 1.34 60 ft. times with a NHRA legal cam with 105 LSA in at 101 I think the results speak for themselves You have to know I have not had a lot of expereince with Mopar V8 BB that have had really good heads, only one so far that has a set of Indy 440-1 that are CNC ported, that motor made 1.61 HP per C.I. not a really good result It does have a cam ground on 110 LSA installed at 108 ATDC on the intake lobes due to the converter being a 5500 RPM stall in a 3000 lb car with the driver, no track results yet Enough said on that subject, you do it your way and I'll do it my way Sorry for the hijack
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1547321
12/16/13 03:05 PM
12/16/13 03:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
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SSDart
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To the OP I still feel/know that cam will work well. You can not go off of lsa's and lca's alone when comparing cams. CI/per hp numbers are also tainted for comparison, when there are still no duration specs...... now that said, the fastest way to accelerate a car is to have as much power available upon shift recovery/launch rpm. Peak hp does not accelerate your car....... Also to the OP. I once inherited the task of re-doing an engine in a combo very similar to yours... this car was a bit heavier and had stock ported heads. We went from a .509 mp cam to a 235/245 iirc ground on 110..... This car was day and night in power. He could not get his head around putting a smaller cam into this engine and really fought me on it............ Man is he ever sold on it now......
Last edited by SSDart; 12/16/13 03:17 PM.
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1547323
12/16/13 06:07 PM
12/16/13 06:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2013
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SSDart
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I hate most of the Mopar cams Going to a modern grind from one of the old Mopar grinds will normally make more power than the older Mopar grinds do
This grind was less aggressive then the old mopar grind, the old mopar grinds were ground as single pattern cams to save on cost due to the fact they were grinding cams in that day off of masters which took time in setting up and increased cost. Quote:
Why do you think most of the aftermarket cams sold today for BB Mopars are sent out with 4 degrees advance built into to them, regardless of the lobe type, flat lifter and roller lobes Trying things, testing, will give you a larger data base to make your future choices on
This is very simple....... The cams especially off the shelf of today are market driven grinds. Most people will call a few cam companies for a recommendation... 1 knowing that most people will buy pretty much the biggest cam recommended to them, they need to recommend a cam too big to make the sale.... advancing it 4 degrees helps the too big of cam perform better 2 now that everyone is grinding there cams with 4 degrees advance..... it is now the "hot ticket".. if your cam is not ground 4 deg advanced you will not sell a cam.........
Starting out with a cam that is straight up, then testing buy advancing and or retarding does give you the best results....
Tell me this...... with your experience..... how much does a 4inch stroke SB engine change in lsa over a 3.58 or 3.31...... there must be a huge difference the 4inch stroke has the rod ratio of a 350 chevy......... Or do all mopars need the same lsa?
If you cannot recommend a complete grind without knowing all the details? Then how can you recommend a lsa ? Does the exhaust not effect the lsa? Try restricting the exhaust on a tighter lsa and see how well that works........
I'm really not trying to get into a debate with you....... I suggested a cam from my own personal experience.... you are picking my suggestion apart and not contributing any info of value....... you cannot pick a cam on LSA alone. it is impossible, and the lsa is still effected by your choice in lobes.. it is a full circle deal.........
The OP can put in a cam with 108 lsa because a 105lsa set the world on fire with your buddies stocker, for all I care... His choice... I'm not here to sell anything........
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: SSDart]
#1547324
12/18/13 03:42 AM
12/18/13 03:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141 junction city oregon
viperblue72
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I think Cab, won't give complete specs, because his info is in general. In general most 440 users with stock ports, have had good results with what Cab is saying. I only know this because I ask a lot of questions at the drag strip. Is bigger better? Not always, but it's also tough to over cam a 440 with stock ports, unless it's a street car. And there is also diminishing returns going bigger. I know there isn't going to be a magic camshaft, and most of it is going to come down to preference. I asked for opinions and some are gonna be different than others. That's okay. . When the time comes to choose the camshaft, I will call bullet, and go with what they recommend. Thank you for the advice.
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: FastmOp]
#1547327
12/20/13 11:59 PM
12/20/13 11:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846 MI, usa
dvw
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Quote:
I would just leave the second ring off the TRWs. Stick a Herbert cam kit in it and run it.
I agree. Watch the rpm, proper cam and let it rip. To many times we worry about what might happen, not what will happen. There's been thousands of motors built with old cams, old pistons, stock rods. Ideal, no. The best set-up, no. Will it work, more than likely. I've seen plenty of modern piston, modern cam motors that are turds, as well as old school stuff that runs better than it has right to. For what it's worth I've run this style piston with a single compression ring in the past w/o issue. Doug
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: dvw]
#1547328
12/21/13 02:24 AM
12/21/13 02:24 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,213 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Quote:
Quote:
I would just leave the second ring off the TRWs. Stick a Herbert cam kit in it and run it.
I agree. Watch the rpm, proper cam and let it rip. To many times we worry about what might happen, not what will happen. There's been thousands of motors built with old cams, old pistons, stock rods. Ideal, no. The best set-up, no. Will it work, more than likely. I've seen plenty of modern piston, modern cam motors that are turds, as well as old school stuff that runs better than it has right to. For what it's worth I've run this style piston with a single compression ring in the past w/o issue. Doug
I tried one time of not using the second ring on NHRA legal Street Hemi motor, never agian on a motor that does not have a vacume pump It started smoking and using a tiny bit of oil right away I wouldn't try it agian now either, especially on a street and strip motor
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1547329
12/21/13 03:12 AM
12/21/13 03:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,846 MI, usa
dvw
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would just leave the second ring off the TRWs. Stick a Herbert cam kit in it and run it.
I agree. Watch the rpm, proper cam and let it rip. To many times we worry about what might happen, not what will happen. There's been thousands of motors built with old cams, old pistons, stock rods. Ideal, no. The best set-up, no. Will it work, more than likely. I've seen plenty of modern piston, modern cam motors that are turds, as well as old school stuff that runs better than it has right to. For what it's worth I've run this style piston with a single compression ring in the past w/o issue. Doug
I tried one time of not using the second ring on NHRA legal Street Hemi motor, never agian on a motor that does not have a vacume pump It started smoking and using a tiny bit of oil right away I wouldn't try it agian now either, especially on a street and strip motor
Mine had no smoke issues at all.
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1547330
12/21/13 03:19 AM
12/21/13 03:19 AM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 168 Moparts
SSDart
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I would just leave the second ring off the TRWs. Stick a Herbert cam kit in it and run it.
I agree. Watch the rpm, proper cam and let it rip. To many times we worry about what might happen, not what will happen. There's been thousands of motors built with old cams, old pistons, stock rods. Ideal, no. The best set-up, no. Will it work, more than likely. I've seen plenty of modern piston, modern cam motors that are turds, as well as old school stuff that runs better than it has right to. For what it's worth I've run this style piston with a single compression ring in the past w/o issue. Doug
I tried one time of not using the second ring on NHRA legal Street Hemi motor, never agian on a motor that does not have a vacume pump It started smoking and using a tiny bit of oil right away I wouldn't try it agian now either, especially on a street and strip motor
I think the OP has decided on running a different piston........ but if he wants to run the TRW's then have the rings back cut to a .155 radial wall........... it will be huge in gains...
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: SSDart]
#1547331
12/21/13 05:58 AM
12/21/13 05:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 646 VA.
mosweethemi
mopar
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mopar
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Posts: 646
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Hey We have ran the TRW L2395 AND L2355 PISTONS for years in all of my Mopar engines and had not any trouble, From 340-383 -440 ,one four, two fours .three twos, single plane , dual plane tunnel ram, cross ram, ANY BORE ,020 030 040 060.a Cast Crank. steel crank, Steel Rods After market Rods, cams ,Crane, Comp , Mopar ,We ran a 1970 Cuda for 15 years or more ,440 - 030 iron Heads 906 heads, Roller Cam R286 Roller Rockers , Tunnel Ram two 660 Carbs , Headers ,Dana 513 Rear End. Car Ran 1030,s All day and All night ever time. 6500 RPM to 6800 RPM. Automatic Car. All of my street car engines I put the TRW Pistons in .I like the TRW,S (A REAL MOPAR MAN)
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Re: What would you limit this short block to?
[Re: mosweethemi]
#1547332
12/21/13 05:08 PM
12/21/13 05:08 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163 CT
GTX MATT
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6K I think you're plenty safe, don't know much about the RPM rods. A buddy has a 440 thats been together for years with the heavy six pack slugs AND six pack rods, he used to turn 6600 on the track (Street and Strip car) and hes been beating it on the street for years. Oh and his tach hasn't worked for the past 10. Who knows how high hes been zinging it All I know its its a 440 A body with slicks and on the street, its shits and gets for sure
Last edited by GTX MATT; 12/21/13 05:09 PM.
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