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a few questions about big block heads
#154632
11/21/08 10:05 PM
11/21/08 10:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
greeneville, tn
the nitro man
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greeneville, tn
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this is my first mopar & i'm at a loss. i've worked on sb chevy's for the last 15 years & come to know them well, but a bb mopar is differant. the heads pretty much suck. how are you to build a quench moter with no quench pad on the heads? i know a 915 & a few others will work, but like a 906, what can you do? i've seen the step head pistons the KB sells, but they look cheap & are heavy. can the 906 or any of the open chambered heads be milled enough to get a quench pad on the heads? i've also seen 440 source's heads. they look great, but with a 210cc intake runner i can't see any more power from them as you can get from a factory head. now i'm going to ask about a real turd. has anyone used the procomp big block mopar heads? i've seen a few that range from 265-295cc intake runners. they look good, but i know their reputation too. i've heard good & bad about the sb chevy & ford heads, but they seem to be getting better. their user reviews are better then they used to get. thanks everybody. 
Last edited by the nitro man; 11/21/08 10:24 PM.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: lewtot184]
#154636
11/22/08 12:33 AM
11/22/08 12:33 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
i mean a flat top piston (no step) with a cylinder head with a quench pad. use a piston with a quench dome (step) for a open chamber (no quench pad) head.
 Will work either way. There have been many 500-550hp big block builds with ~210cc intake runner. If you feel you need more, edelbrock victor heads will have your large port. Indy also makes some large port heads as well. Probably others I'm not aware of, because for me that's overkill.
If you don't think a 440source or edelbrock rpm head will make any more hp than a stock head, you are dead wrong. Now port and install larger valves in a stock head and it'll make as much power as a source/eddy rpm head yes, but for the money you've dumped into stock iron heads, you could have almost just bought some aftermarket aluminum heads.
Some have milled open chamber heads far enough to make a quench pad out of them, but we're talking at least .10" worth of milling. That means you'll also have the mill the intake side of the heads a lot, plus likely need custom length pushrods by that point. Also I hear that much milling can make the stock heads crack prone.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#154637
11/22/08 12:42 AM
11/22/08 12:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
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I use the KB quench pad pistons in the 440 thats in my 63. I also use 906 open chamber heads. You have to measure every chamber and piston pad height and work them as my quench pads varied from .054 to .057 above the deck and the head chambers varied from .038 to .032. So I had to work them some to get all my cylinder's quench betwen .040 and .045. But it works good as I can run 92 pump and 38 total timing with no ping at all. I estimate my flywheel HP to be right around 500 by my 3700 lbs and my 1/4 mph. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 11/22/08 12:42 AM.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: RobX4406]
#154639
11/22/08 01:52 AM
11/22/08 01:52 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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my OOTB eddy performer heads made 505 hp, 535 torque, and I'm only at .525 lift...they advertise that maximum airflow is at .600 lift, so I'm leaving some on the table with my cam selection.
the 440 source heads are almost identical to the eddy's performance and flow wise. they just look more like original heads, and cost less.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: RobX4406]
#154640
11/22/08 11:58 PM
11/22/08 11:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
greeneville, tn
the nitro man
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Quote:
What are you attempting to build.
A 440 source or Edelbrock head can and will make in excess of 600 hp on the right combo.
I haven't made up my mind yet on what to build. I'm thinking of a steel crank 400, or a 451, or just a good 440.
I have a 400 in my 65 belvedere, but don't know if they can run like I want. I would like to put it in the low 12's. by the time I cut a 440 crank to fit my block & buy pistons for a 451 I could just about stroke a 499ci motor. can a 400 run good? Are they good for torque, or do they like rpm's?
head wise, how can a stock type head make that kind (450-500) of power? 915 & 906 Mopar heads just do flow what a good stock small valved small block chevy head flows. I can see where the monstrous torque comes from but how can they feed a 6,000-6,500 rpm 500-550 HP 440?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not throwing off on Mopar's, I love Mopar's & always have. The chevy's I've done for the last 15 years is because their cheaper to build, & parts are easier to find. don't get me wrong I like chevy too, but Mopar is my first love. mopar big blocks are the best looking engines ever. they just look clean. .
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154642
11/23/08 12:25 AM
11/23/08 12:25 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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Quote:
head wise, how can a stock type head make that kind (450-500) of power? 915 & 906 Mopar heads just do flow what a good stock small valved small block chevy head flows. I can see where the monstrous torque comes from but how can they feed a 6,000-6,500 rpm 500-550 HP 440?
Nobody here's making 500hp with stock UNPORTED heads. Take a set of stock heads, and invest the money into going with larger valves and some good quality port work and you will make them flow just as good as the eddy RPM/440source heads. You can make 500hp with those heads, because they flow decent OOTB.
Look at 383man, he's got a similar car to yours, and his 440 with ported, big valve 906's is running 11.5's in the 1/4.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: 383man]
#154643
11/23/08 12:37 AM
11/23/08 12:37 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
greeneville, tn
the nitro man
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Quote:
Do 400's run good ?? Well my son has run 11.40' @ 117 with his stock stroke 400. It's a mild build with stock Eddy RPM heads and the MP .557 cam.
is he using a steel 383 crank, or did he use a cast 400 crank? does it make any botton end torque, or does it like higher rpm's?
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154644
11/23/08 01:12 AM
11/23/08 01:12 AM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
i've also seen 440 source's heads. they look great, but with a 210cc intake runner i can't see any more power from them as you can get from a factory head.
This was in your first post.
Ede's and stealths ARE NOT stock mopar iron heads.
If a port is 250cc and shaped poorly, it won't work as well as one 10-20% smaller with a great profile.
If you want closed chambered Iron heads you need the 67 heads.
http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/59.html
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154645
11/23/08 02:36 AM
11/23/08 02:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,161
CT
GTX MATT
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Quote:
Quote:
Do 400's run good ?? Well my son has run 11.40' @ 117 with his stock stroke 400. It's a mild build with stock Eddy RPM heads and the MP .557 cam.
is he using a steel 383 crank, or did he use a cast 400 crank? does it make any botton end torque, or does it like higher rpm's?
Nitroman a 400 is a REV motor, and when I say rev, i mean it will SCREAM. If you think your 350 Chevys liek to rev you need to tach up a 400 Chrysler because it has a shorter stroke and will still make more torque anyway.
A home port job on a set of 915/906s or 346/452s goes a long way. A 400 will tach up very nicely to 6500 or so with a decent cam and stock heads. In fact Dwayne Porter has made something like 460 hp with a stock displacement 383, stock 906 heads I beleive the ports were completely untouched, and a tad over 250 degrees of duration @ .050 and around 11:1 compression.
Big block Mopars just flat out run and theyre durable as could be. You dont need tons of head flow to make these things run high RPMs, theyre just big mills. Most 11 second 440s probably dont see much over 6000 rpm.
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: GTX MATT]
#154647
11/23/08 01:52 PM
11/23/08 01:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,978
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
A home port job on a set of 915/906s or 346/452s goes a long way.
Only if you know what you are doing , if you don't it's REAL EASY to make them flow WORSE than untouched heads .
Quote:
In fact Dwayne Porter has made something like 460 hp with a stock displacement 383, stock 906 heads I beleive the ports were completely untouched, and a tad over 250 degrees of duration @ .050 and around 11:1 compression.
Once took off the stock intake and carb that 383 made 500 HP , propelled his heavy B body to LOW 11's ..
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154648
11/23/08 02:22 PM
11/23/08 02:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,841
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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400 block with 440 crank, 451ci, RPM heads with backcut intake valves, and factory cnc ridge blended in. No port work. 11.24 @ 119.3mph in the signature car, more to come hopefully in springtime.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, 400s and Edelbrock heads seem to work halfway decent with the right complement of stuff (and my stuff is, at best, maybe 70% "right" 'cause it isn't a pure drag car).
Intake runner volume is small for the cubic inch on most B/RB engines. It's both a blessing and a curse depending on how you look at it, however I think my engine will live longer with max hp rpm at 6250rpm rather than 7500rpm.
For big runner volume....we have the Hemi....
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: JohnRR]
#154649
11/23/08 02:22 PM
11/23/08 02:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
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Not to start a huge debate but the very high stock rod to stroke ratio of a 400 helps it make HP way past the peak so yes they can rev very good. The short R/S ratio on a SBC prohibits it from makeing much HP past the peak HP. Also the average SBC head will not flow 220 CFM, mabey some of the odd ball ones will come close OOTB but not your average head. Most all BBM heads from 67 on will do 220 easy. 220 is not huge but combine it with a exagerated high RS ratio and that is how they still make power at 6500. If you want to compare a odd SBC head to a BBM head you should compare them to a max wedge head to make it fair. BTW a small block mopar head flows as good as a BBM head. A stock magnum head can get 220 on most benches.
As for the whole quench thing, I am a huge proponent of useing it whenever possible, however it is not mandatory to make big HP so don't sweat it, quench won't kill your build. Personaly I would use the step dome KB pistons if I could not find 915 heads or afford aftermarket closed chamber heads.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154651
11/23/08 04:30 PM
11/23/08 04:30 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,101
Retired now in Tennessee
Chi_Town_Runner
super stock
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Retired now in Tennessee
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Check 440 source web page. A sponsor here. He has the 400/451 storker kit for affordable money. Cranks already been cut. Just drop in (after checking all spec's)
Good luck
Frank
Remember - 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 rights make a left!
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154652
11/23/08 06:19 PM
11/23/08 06:19 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
lewtot184
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Quote:
How much does it usually cost to cut a 440 crank to fit a 400 block? No offset grinding, just the mains & counter weights. a 451 seems to be the best thing I've read about so far. It seems to be a proven combo. I like the lighter weight of the rotating assembly v/s the 440.
thanks for everyone's replies. i just want to learn more (all i can) about the mighty mopar big block..
before i spent $$$ on cutting down a stock crank i'd look into a 3.90 stroker crank for 400 block. comes out to 470 cubes. parts are easy to come by and an absolute killer combo. my favorite big block combo. kinda like a hot 350 chevy on steriods.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: lewtot184]
#154653
11/23/08 08:34 PM
11/23/08 08:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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I've been wondering about that 470 for my 400 block. who should I contact? EDIT & with a 400 block & rb rods what is the limit on how far it can be stroked? this is going to be a daily driver 
Last edited by RapidRobert; 11/23/08 09:02 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#154655
11/23/08 09:55 PM
11/23/08 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
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Quote:
Quote:
head wise, how can a stock type head make that kind (450-500) of power? 915 & 906 Mopar heads just do flow what a good stock small valved small block chevy head flows. I can see where the monstrous torque comes from but how can they feed a 6,000-6,500 rpm 500-550 HP 440?
Nobody here's making 500hp with stock UNPORTED heads. Take a set of stock heads, and invest the money into going with larger valves and some good quality port work and you will make them flow just as good as the eddy RPM/440source heads. You can make 500hp with those heads, because they flow decent OOTB.
Look at 383man, he's got a similar car to yours, and his 440 with ported, big valve 906's is running 11.5's in the 1/4.
You are right as I run 906 heads that I did some porting on myself.
Oh and thanks for the kind words Daytona.  Ron
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: RapidRobert]
#154656
11/23/08 09:56 PM
11/23/08 09:56 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
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usa
lewtot184
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you can go 4.25 stroke. using the big block chevy rods is a plus for crankcase clearance. steel rods give a little more clearance. the 470 i used to build had an offset ground 3.75 stroke steel mopar crank, bill miller 6.8 chevy alum rods, ross 12.5 pistons, stage 6 heads, program cross bolt main caps, and a half fill block. this was strictly a race engine and had an extremly reliable bottom end. the bob weight was close to stock 350 chevy. 2 years ago the engine recieved a 4.15 eagle crank (500 cubes), 12.5 je pistons, mopar bill miller 6.76, rods and indy ez heads. the 500 doesn't run a lick better than the old 470.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: the nitro man]
#154658
11/24/08 01:42 AM
11/24/08 01:42 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,314
Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
dave571
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Quote:
head wise, how can a stock type head make that kind (450-500) of power? 915 & 906 Mopar heads just do flow what a good stock small valved small block chevy head flows. I can see where the monstrous torque comes from but how can they feed a 6,000-6,500 rpm 500-550 HP 440?
I realize you love mopars too, so don't take any offense to anything I mention, but I notice a lot of GM guys look at BB mopar heads, and can't believe we get any power out of them. I had a friend call mine "tractor heads" After he put twin screws on his 454 it was finally faster than my car, but that's a different story.
I guess the only answer to how is it that they perform, is that a motor isn't a flow bench. 
500 hp out of an iron headed big block with very minor port work is not tough. Especially if you go with a 440 or bigger.
My 915's are still stock valve size. Port work is/was minor. I do agree with john rr's comment that you can make it worse too.
Just remember you're not trying to redesign the head, just smooth it out a little.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: 2boltmain]
#154660
11/24/08 08:02 AM
11/24/08 08:02 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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Quote:
Case in point though, the typical small block chevy made like 550hp stock. Then when you installed a 4bbl carb and a chrome air cleaner the power surpassed 575hp!  (The same engine installed in ANY year camaro would produce close to 625hp) Dont even bring up a 3/4"cam! 
whaa...did I miss something?
stock small block chevy? 
common, let's try to keep it real here!
a 400 will make great power with stock parts. sure, your average iron head will max out arund 450 hp, and aluminum up to around 500-550.
the key to making a stock stroke 400 a good motor, is compression and heads. big bore allows for big valve and heavy breathing to help make torque, short stroke allows for insane revs out of a big block.
build it with aftermarket rods, pistons, etc. and save a TON of weight, you'll have a big block that makes big block power, yet revs like a small block.
my 383 is running a 440 crank, lighter rods, lighter pistons, smaller wrist pins, eddy heads. last time I did the math, I think I'm something like 7 kilos lighter on the rotating assembly over stock. 7,000 grams! that's over 14 pounds of metal off the spinning assembly!
it revs to 6500 FAST, but its making over 500 ft lbs of torque at 3,000 rpm. I don't have numbers below that because the dyno started at 3,000 rpm.
my combo maxes out at about 6200 though, because of the cam that I'm running, flat tappet hydraulic. I'm ok with that though, this is a street vehicle, not a dedicated track racer. 500 ft lbs of torque from 3,000 rpm to 5800 rpm is enough for me. I wouldn't want to sacrifice my bottom end grunt just to chase higher RPM HP that I would never be able to use on the street anyway.
**Photobucket sucks**
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#154661
11/24/08 08:09 AM
11/24/08 08:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 21,345
Marysville, O-H-I-O
70Cuda383
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oh, and since the Original poster is a chevy guy...I enjoy it when people ask what engine is in my Dakota...I tell them "its just an old 383" it's fun to see their eyes light up and ask "oh, a stroker motor, huh!?" I smile at them and say, "yea, like I said, just a 383" I'll let them think it's a small block chevy 350 stroked to 383 and not a Mopar 383 stroked to 438. if they can't tell the difference between a SBC block and a mopar big block...that's their loss!  
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: 70Cuda383]
#154662
11/24/08 08:48 AM
11/24/08 08:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,767
Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
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I was poking fun at the original posters expertise with SB chevies and lack of knowledge with mopars. He has come to the right place to gain knowledge though! Seriously though our small port big block heads do make great STREET power in stock form. Case in point: The 440 magnum at 375 rated hp was built similarly to the 454 LS-5 (Not LS-6!) 10.5 to 1 compression, hyd cam, non Holley carb ect ect. The 440 magnum ran much much stronger than the LS-5 454 (not LS-6) despite the LS-5s larger intake and exh ports and valves. Im talking stock oem motors here. The LS-5s heads will shine with more compression cam and carb but I am talking street mild stuff- the 440 was a fun no fuss no muss monster.
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: RapidRobert]
#154663
11/24/08 09:54 AM
11/24/08 09:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916
usa
lewtot184
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Quote:
Quote:
you can go 4.25 stroke.
I can use rb rods(gotta be Mopar), this much stroke increase & still have enough CH distance left to use a 400 block?
4.25 uses a big block chevy rod.
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Re: a few questions about big block heads
[Re: ZIPPY]
#154666
11/24/08 06:37 PM
11/24/08 06:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 75
greeneville, tn
the nitro man
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greeneville, tn
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Quote:
Cost me $90 to have the mains (and rods) ground and polished, $75 for zyglo/crack check, and cutting the counterweights was free because I did it myself with an angle grinder, using a cardboard template (cut 7.25" hole in cardboard, cut piece of cardboard in half). Grind to fit the template, polish it up with sandpaper rolls, and that's that. Not much material needs to be removed.
how much metal needs to be removed? .125" or less? i'm thinking about just doing the 400 with the stock stroke. what kind of abuse can a cast crank take? i know i wouldn't want to throw a 250 shot of nitrous on it, but what about just spinning it to 6,500- 7,000 rpm? will the cast crank take it? my buddy that's been in mopars all his life says a cast crank in a bb mopar wont last, him or his dad ether one won't run one in any 440 they us.
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