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Compare interiors on a 2010 Charger and a 2012 Charger. That 2010 is crap in comparison to the much nicer 2012.

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Compare the interiors of my '98 Chevy Lumina and a '98 Toyota Camry. My Lumina was nicer, plusher, and way more comfortable. My car also had more power with the base engine.

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A Charger does not compares to a Lexus, the 300C compares to the Lexus.

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The 2010 more door Charger is a piece of crap compared to anything.

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What is said in Europe about American cars is largely a political issue. Another thing is the psychological issue. When the lie is repeated for decades it becomes the truth. American cars are an oddity to the average consumer. And it is always a safe bet to go with the masses in your opinions. Besides, the cars are so expensive here that it is also easy to hate what you can't afford but maybe that darn neighbor can.

And don't get me started on those topgear maroons...

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The 2010 more door Charger is a piece of crap compared to anything.

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A E63 will shred a Challenger SRT8. I guess the extra doors don't slow it down.

http://www.youtube.com/v/59fZMmziw6U

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US car consumers have a long memory. Take for instance the damage done to the US perception of automobile diesel engines done by the Oldsmobile diesel engines of the late 70s to mid 80s.

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A E63 will shred a Challenger SRT8. I guess the extra doors don't slow it down.

http://www.youtube.com/v/59fZMmziw6U

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It certainly will, and for 40k more it sure better. How does it fare against a CTSV, Z06, or GT500?

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I think the real issue is that you pay much more for US product in a lot of countries than the local or Euro equivalent...tariff protection and import costs jack the price.

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A E63 will shred a Challenger SRT8. I guess the extra doors don't slow it down.

http://www.youtube.com/v/59fZMmziw6U

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It certainly will, and for 40k more it sure better. How does it fare against a CTSV, Z06, or GT500?

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All is fair on the street. Price doesn't matter when the other guy pulls up beside you.
The E63 stands toe to toe with the CTS-V.

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Feets you are right, but American cars are typically considered inferior to their import counterparts on the basis of what you get for your dollar (quality, longevity, and performance), since that is what most perspective buyers are concerned with. Would you compare a Ferrari to a Civic on a performance basis? I don't think that's a fair comparison to the SRT-8 Challenger. Perhaps a 335i Beamer would be more fair from the price/class perspective, and those are also well matched performance wise.

A CTS-V would also wax a 335i

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I think the real issue is that you pay much more for US product in a lot of countries than the local or Euro equivalent...tariff protection and import costs jack the price.

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The real issue in the US is that other countries dump cheap crap on our shores.
The US consumer is a whooore. Gimme cheap! Gimme now!
Look! That Korean crap box is shiny and cheap. Buy now! Buy now!

There still isn't a ton of money to go around so the cheap garbage gets the nod. That's why I drive a smart. My old Concorde was facing serious repair bills and needed electronic parts no longer made. I wasn't ready to take on a major car payment so I flipped the granny car and leased a smart from work. Factor in the cost of the lease, insurance, and fuel bill and I find a cost of $42/month for a car with a warranty.

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I think much of the poor opinion of American cars comes from the dealer experience. People will judge a brand by the dealer, fair or not. I have dealt with over a dozen dealers in my car buying and parts buying years. None were excellent experiences. Only one or maybe two were what I'd call decent or fair. The rest poor. This covers 2 states and a half dozen cities. My experience with the Acura dealer was superb by contrast.

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The poor dealer experience also leads people to not want to have regular maintenance/service done and then they wonder why they toasted their transmission at 150k miles.

Also, regarding transmissions, I notice that many of the import cars recommend transmission services every 30K miles, while GM recommends a 50K interval for city driven vehicles and 100K as a general recommendation. Also, the cheaper [Edited by Moparts - Family Friendly Site - Keep it clean] cars have very harsh shifting transmissions, which adds to the longevity. However they still COOK the fluid in 30k miles. Ford did get smart and move their recommended intervals down to 30k also.

EDIT I guess we can't abbreviate Japanese anymore.

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Chrysler sell the Voyager and 300 as Lancias, only Jeep (Wrangler and Grand Cherokee)have the original name.
At least in Sweden, US cars have a better reputation than italian ones which are equalled with quality problems. This rebadging weakens Chryslers position in my opinion.

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BTW nice looking car (IMO)

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BTW nice looking car (IMO)

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Ick.

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BTW nice looking car (IMO)

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Ick.

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I will agree with feets on this one

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Just me I guess .......but then again I like the new Jeep Cherokee too, what does that say about my taste

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Consumers Union's predecessor, Consumers' Research, was founded in 1926.[3] In 1936, Consumers Union was founded[4] by Arthur Kallet, Colston Warne, and others who felt that the established Consumers' Research organization was not aggressive enough. Kallet, an engineer and director of Consumers' Research, had a falling out with F.J. Schlink and started his own organization with Amherst College economics professor Colston Warne. In part due to actions of Consumers' Research, the House Un-American Activities Committee placed Consumers Union on a list of subversive organizations, only to remove it in 1954.

Prominent consumer advocate Ralph Nader was on the board of directors, but left in 1975 due to a "division of philosophy" with new Executive Director Rhoda Karpatkin.[5] Nader wanted Consumers Union to focus on policy and product advocacy, while Karpatkin focused on product testing

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The truth is, the first imported-to-US consumer products were junk.

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Great post GetAwayDriver...you REALLY need to write that book.

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Oh yes! The truth must come out! I promise to buy at least 10 copies!

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In Canada the Top 3 in terms of sales is Ford, GM and Chrysler. They're all fairly close. What are the Top 3 in the States?

Dave

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I've read before that American cars sell better in Canada per capita than they do in the US itself for whatever reasons. Chrysler has a few cars that are #1 in their class here I believe.

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It would be nice if we didn't crap up this thread with the typical Moparts back & forth "My $70,000 luxury car is better/faster/more stylish than your $70,000 luxury car" and just answered the guy's question.

If you really want to attempt something interesting, consider a take that includes the change in American society occurring at the same time a new generation of Americans suddenly found not only foreign cars, but pretty much any consumer product from another nation to be superior.

It's no coincidence that the culture wars of the later 60s cast large American companies in the role of "the man", "the establishment", and therefore worthy of scorn and rebellion. In 1945, American companies spoke with pride about the number of tanks, planes, bombs, etc. produced in their factories to beat back Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Imperial Japan. By the later 60s, "war machines" were the last thing you wanted associated with your company.

But it wouldn't really matter. Your uncle drove a Chrysler (or an Oldsmobile) watched a big wooden Zenith TV, and probably dropped out of school during the depression. He was a little rough around the edges, told some racist jokes, and wore a short hair cut. Your college professor drove a Volkswagen (or a Toyota) watched a small plastic Panasonic TV, was highly educated, refined and (at least publicly) claimed to believe in equality.

The truth is, the first imported-to-US consumer products were junk. My '70 Dart-driving mother often said if she had a dime for each time she had to rescue her VW-driving friend, she could have paid for the car. I had an oddball-uncle who bought a '78 Honda and after a couple Michigan winters, it had rusted so badly the doors wouldn't open. Honda's with the early CVCC engine would smoke after a few thousand miles. Mazda's rotary engines were such a disaster only a 15% investment from Ford saved the company. Chrysler nearly purchased Mitsubishi when the parent company was almost ready to give up manufacturing cars. Toyota actually withdrew from the US market for 8-years. BMW was nearly bought out by Mercedes. Fiat gave up on the US. So did the French. British makes simply went out of business.

Yet a few found a market, and that market was based more on perceptions about the BUYERS of product than the actual product itself. I just watched an episode of the mid-70s American TV show "Maude", an outspoken, middle-aged, politically liberal woman living in suburban Tuckahoe, Westchester County, New York The show was created by Norman Lear, a well-known politically liberal man. In this episode, the writers made an obvious effort to describe the well-educated, handsome character as the driver of a Toyota. This struck me as odd, since TV shows (especially in that era) would never mention a specific brand of car... To the point of being ridiculous and having a mechanic describe a getaway car to the police as a "white sedan". In another Norman Lear show, (All in the Family) the Gloria character (always smarter than her father) is mentioned several times as driving a Toyota. I don't believe these were coincidences, and these were HUGELY popular shows.

The automotive press of the day was much the same. Read a review of American luxury cars from the early 70s and you'll find more references to "bourgeoisie" and "establishment" than a communist rally. Consumers Union is the policy and action division of Consumer Reports.

From Wikipedia:

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Consumers Union's predecessor, Consumers' Research, was founded in 1926.[3] In 1936, Consumers Union was founded[4] by Arthur Kallet, Colston Warne, and others who felt that the established Consumers' Research organization was not aggressive enough. Kallet, an engineer and director of Consumers' Research, had a falling out with F.J. Schlink and started his own organization with Amherst College economics professor Colston Warne. In part due to actions of Consumers' Research, the House Un-American Activities Committee placed Consumers Union on a list of subversive organizations, only to remove it in 1954.

Prominent consumer advocate Ralph Nader was on the board of directors, but left in 1975 due to a "division of philosophy" with new Executive Director Rhoda Karpatkin.[5] Nader wanted Consumers Union to focus on policy and product advocacy, while Karpatkin focused on product testing

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Mother Jones magazine (hardly a magazine for squares) broke the story on "exploding Pintos" and those evil Detroit executives who would rather burn innocent Pinto owners than spend an extra $3 per car. Too bad the Rutger's Law Review showed Pintos to be statistically AVERAGE for fires after a rear-end collision, and the only time a dollar amount was put on a human life was in a study done by the US government to establish damages... Not beforehand by Ford execs who sent their own kids off to college in Pintos.

Believe it or not, there WERE people in the 1960s and 70s who wanted to see these huge symbols of American capitalism FAIL, and create opportunity in the middle of the economic chaos.

Against this backdrop of social change, came a wave of early 70s government regulation that ensured many Americans would have a negative experience, as opposed to a "love affair" with their automobile. Let's not forget the OPEC oil embargo of 1973 imposed by Arab nations as punishment for US support of Israel.

American companies never made much of an effort to penetrate foreign markets (therefore broadening their product line up, and making them better prepared for a run-up of gas prices) because they were met with protectionist measures... Sometimes these measures to halt imports were ironic legacies of the Marshall plan to rebuild European and Japanese industry!

In summary... Were there crappy American cars built in the 70s/80s? Undeniably. But for every Vega there was a Mazda with worn rotor seals burning oil. For every Toyota with 200,000 miles on the 22r, there is a Buick with 200k on the 3800 V6.

Chrysler's manufacturing in particular was barely functional by the late 70s, and luckily they didn't have the money to re-design their chassis/engine/transmission designs from the 60s. What engineering dollars were available (at all the American producers) went into designing anti-pollution equipment which didn't become mandatory in Europe until the early 90s (Euro I, 1993).

Any paper should include these points, or it risks becoming just another rehash of mainstream media pablum. I recommend this webpage in particular:

http://www.fairimage.org/historyofinnovation.htm

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Very good post

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BTW nice looking car (IMO)

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Ick.

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I will agree with feets on this one

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Something that was pointed out to me by a Euro designer when someone made a comment about the flat paint finish on part of a vehicle. The North American buyer is different than the Euro buy, you're more likely to see chrome door handles and chrome or highly polished wheels on a North American vehicle than a Euro designed vehicle than the standard body color door handles and silver painted wheels....that's why the Caddy has the polished wheels and chrome door handles and may look Icky to some that like or see a lot of high end Euro vehicles.

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Keeping it bland is a way to avoid scorn (or worse) in parts of the world that have abandoned "ambition"

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In Germany, Mercedes offers a "badge delete" option that strips the model designation off the trunk lid. It's a nod to European socialism, so factory workers won't key the CEO's 12-cylinder S65 AMG, thinking it could be a base S350 with the turbodiesel six. The S350 owner, sans badge, can also pretend he's in a model costing $20,000 more, merely by upgrading his rims.

But in America we like to show off our labels. You don't work 80 hours a week on Wall Street to be equal with the next luxury sedan.

http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/2010/05/2010_mercedes-benz_s550_no_nee.html


TO an American, the sight draws a blank. All over Europe one sees cars, mostly from high-end companies, that wear no nameplates or model designations. Where we would expect to find a nametag of gleaming letters and numbers on the tail, there’s only an expanse of paint.

These nameless cars aren’t rare in Europe, either. If not in the majority, they are a sizeable minority.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/automobiles/11BADGES.html

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...and thanks for all the nice comments.

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In Canada the Top 3 in terms of sales is Ford, GM and Chrysler. They're all fairly close. What are the Top 3 in the States?

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