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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1494546
10/27/13 09:33 AM
10/27/13 09:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
When we were autocrossing my son's Barracuda we solved the "we can't afford tires" this way. FREE used Nascar tires...
Love it! 
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: brads70]
#1494547
10/27/13 11:05 PM
10/27/13 11:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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http://www.carnut.com/specs/specs.htmlclick engine dimensions lower right. since we are all about weight. My 508 Sixpack is probably an easy 725# with a + 1/2" stroker crank and Six Pack induction.......... Not sure what a new hemi weighs. Although making them efi in an older car is expensive $$$$$$ I read the 5.0 Coyote weighs 430 # shipped no fluids. Not sure if that 440 weight figure is dry or wet either. Either way these RB engines are heavyyyy.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494548
10/28/13 08:46 AM
10/28/13 08:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
http://www.carnut.com/specs/specs.html
click engine dimensions lower right.
since we are all about weight. My 508 Sixpack is probably an easy 725# with a + 1/2" stroker crank and Six Pack induction..........
Not sure what a new hemi weighs. Although making them efi in an older car is expensive $$$$$$
I read the 5.0 Coyote weighs 430 # shipped no fluids. Not sure if that 440 weight figure is dry or wet either. Either way these RB engines are heavyyyy.
That stroker crank might be lighter than your stock one. Its longer sure, but most stroker cranks have Chevy journals these days do they not? The 6-pack is heavy though, especially if its iron (ouch!), the whole stock deal with the cool lookin' lid, even more. But aluminum heads would save a bit, if you have them. With iron heads, maybe 680-700?
The Coyotes are that light, yes, as are the 4.6 DOHC's from 92-'01. Like the older stuff, they can be lightened too... though not near as much. The whole topic, plus my rundown ov shipping weights in the other thread has me re-thinking my whole plan now. 3000lb Challenger + mystery engine, or 2700lb 69 Fastback + alum DOHC mod. Hmmm...
The new hemi stuff is way light too though. How light i dont know, if the blocks are aluminum they'd be close to the mod, if not, i'd say around 500lbs (an iron block mod weighs about that). I bet even a 'heavy' iron-block hemi would still weigh around what a stock slant-6 weighs...
It really is ALL the details though... With a 440-based engine, you have much larger headers, usually much larger pipes, bigger cooling systems, etc. Older stick transmissions are heavy too. On the Mustangs, EVERYTHING is light, and the rare stuff that isn't is easily found in the aftermarket in lighter form for unfairly cheap prices.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494552
10/28/13 05:06 PM
10/28/13 05:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Ive seen weights all over the place, the Gen III's are lighter than a all iron small block for sure. On another site a fellow weighed his truck Eagle 5.7 at 512 lbs. with no accesories and no fluids. Another fellow weighed his low deck 470 that was all aluminum but block and it came in at 519 lbs with 7 qts. of oil. Im not going to a Gen III for weight savings. They just flat run and are efficient pumps.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494554
10/28/13 07:02 PM
10/28/13 07:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I planned on corner weighing it before I pulled the B engine out but I ended up getting forced to pull before the scales were available.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang on the glen
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1494556
10/28/13 09:44 PM
10/28/13 09:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Makes me think I need a Corvette Tom.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494558
10/29/13 04:49 AM
10/29/13 04:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
The only thing I see against the Gen 3 Hemi is the cost of 4k for a computer to run it in full efi mode? Why run a new tech engine with carb and a distributor? That 4k number is from Indy Cylinder Head touting the new gen Hemi with a carb they sell?
I used to think the same thing... but lately i've been unable to shake this uneasy bug in my head about having a hotrod, and not being able to fix it on the side ov the road should something go wrong. The dist and the carb, even on a new engine (if retrofit) would at least get a couple things back on the simple end. I've said it forever and i'll say it again here... New stuff is absolutely great... when it works. When it doesn't... well... life just sucks. When old stuff doesn't work, at least half the time you can still get to work, or home from wherever.
That said... if i went new, being a gambling man, i'd definitely go with whatever EFI came on the engine.
Quote:
For the Coyote I see computer wiring etc for $1700 to run that engine in a street rod or other not OEM Coyote application.
Pale if you put a mod engine into a Mopar your going to make some new friends in both the Mopar and Ford camps.
It's prevalent to put a Chevy into a Ford but this is new ground your hinting at........
Hey you hush now...
I'll be honest. Its an option. It is BY FAR the best one that much is certain. I'd hate to do it, yet no other option comes close for what i want in a car. The sacrilege doesn't bother me so much as the logistics ov it. Sounds like lots ov fab work, though realistically no more than to put one in a 69 Mustang. I've been trying to talk myself out ov it forever now. The big block is just completely off the table now. The Magnum smallblock with alum heads sounds expensive, wont make much more power (if any) and wont get anywhere near the MPG. The hemi is too big (cid). The Mopar 4.7L isn't an option. If i were truly open-minded i'd have a small LS engine on the list, and probably near the top... but THAT sacrilege would keep me up at night, and i'd just be yet another fool that dumped a SBC in something cool and made it uncool. Maybe if i had an LS7 kicking around... thats one LS i wouldn't kick out ov bed...
Again... having a helluva time talking myself out ov doing this. I almost wish i didn't love my Challenger so much...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1494559
10/29/13 05:01 AM
10/29/13 05:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Ive seen weights all over the place, the Gen III's are lighter than a all iron small block for sure. On another site a fellow weighed his truck Eagle 5.7 at 512 lbs. with no accesories and no fluids. Another fellow weighed his low deck 470 that was all aluminum but block and it came in at 519 lbs with 7 qts. of oil. Im not going to a Gen III for weight savings. They just flat run and are efficient pumps.
They are definitely lighter than a stock small block. Possibly even lighter than one with aluminum heads.
And yes... they do work. Even the lowliest ov all... the very first-gen 5.7 300C engine... was rated right around what the 426 Hemi was rated at (345HP net vs 350HP net). They're what? 120HP MORE powerful now...??? Taking a first-year 5.7 out ov a junkyard car and dumping it into a 3200lb muscle car in pure stock form would make a FAST car. Believe it. But you would never do that... No. You'd add headers, exhaust, tune, delete accessories, cold air... hopefully use a stick. Yup... now its that much faster.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494561
10/29/13 10:20 PM
10/29/13 10:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Hey PR - I have already had the show poodle crowd tell me this Road Runner I have appears to be worthless unless (they hate the 508 six pack) I restore it to stock 400 engine etc etc.....
I'd have some very choice words for anyone that said that about my car within earshot...
Quote:
The one thing I kept thinking about this week is the marriage of a Coyote drive train with the Road Runner.....that with a Borgeson steering box and removing that heavy air grabber hood in favor of a fiberglass one.
How much weight would that take out of the Runner? 300# with the engine alone, 50# minimum for the hood and I think the borgeson box is 15# lighter.
Ditch the battery to the trunk, removing the trans cooler and lines(stick shifted now)
Think of that cutting 400# off the nose of this car pretty easily with some elbow grease but achievable.
I'm telling you right now, get that thought out ov your head. Right now. If you even let it linger a bit you'll be doomed. It will never leave. The Coyote might be a tad small for YOUR application though... even without the weight its still a large heavy wide car, with a heavy powertrain. The mods excel because the cars are light, and short (less powertrain) and dont rob a lot ov power from the flywheel to the tires. My calcs put the weight loss at around 250lbs, going from big block/4-speed to aluminum mod/6-speed, plus the other stuff, i'd say you're right on. Do it right and you could easily save another 50+lbs. Thats right in 2014 GT territory, weight-wise. It could work, and it'd still be faster than the powertrain IN the GT. I'd say for your application, the hemi, whether old 5.7 or the 6.4 would serve much better. My car wont weigh anything or have a single option... so really i could get away with a 4L mod if they made one.
Like i said... kill that thought. Its brain cancer... heh heh heh...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494562
11/02/13 12:30 AM
11/02/13 12:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 142
Petaluma, CA
JimDiesel
member
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member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 142
Petaluma, CA
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This thread got me thinking about power to weight ratios.
I spent some time looking up vehicle weights.
The lap times and quarter times seem to follow HP/pound and torque/pound pretty well. I am sure all of the numbers are debatable, but they seem generally right based on what I found.
I was surprised to see that the new challenger is really overweight and outgunned by ford and GM. I would still choose it out of those three though if I had to choose one.
Also I couldn't find a way to copy and paste the data from excel so a PDF is attached.
Have fun
Thanks
Last edited by JimDiesel; 11/02/13 12:31 AM.
68 Road Runner
67 Coronet
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: JimDiesel]
#1494563
11/03/13 07:57 AM
11/03/13 07:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
This thread got me thinking about power to weight ratios.
I spent some time looking up vehicle weights.
The lap times and quarter times seem to follow HP/pound and torque/pound pretty well. I am sure all of the numbers are debatable, but they seem generally right based on what I found.
I was surprised to see that the new challenger is really overweight and outgunned by ford and GM. I would still choose it out of those three though if I had to choose one.
Hah!!! And smaller stock tires than i had on my PINTO. Nice.
Though, now that i know that, i have to say i'm actually a bit more impressed... For a near 2 1/4-ton beast with a rather high center ov gravity and tires that i literally would not want on my 4ft tall 2400lb PINTO... it actually handles pretty damn well! Dump ALL the moving parts into a 70 Challenger that is lower, wider, and nearly a 1/2-ton lighter, with some 295/335 tires and i bet you could win a race or two...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494564
12/22/13 09:58 PM
12/22/13 09:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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The Runner is sold and paid for...... Time to go Mustang shopping in the winter. Excellent Christmas present to place under the  So now would you get a slightly used 2012/2013 Boss 302 or just buy a new 2014 Track Pack Mustang? Looks like used Boss cars are advertised around 38 to 40K New Base GT's with Track Pack are advertised around 31 to 32K
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