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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1494288
09/25/13 09:49 AM
09/25/13 09:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
A lot of this is just speculation as you don't have a complete car yet.
No, no i dont. But its pretty easy to figure this stuff out. Its pretty easy to say that my 3006lb Challenger will weigh 3065lbs with big fat rollers on all corners (when the bigs weigh exactly 15lbs more than the OEM). You weigh the stockers, you weigh the swap stuff. No...i cant give you a done weight down to the dollar, but i can come in within 50-100lbs easy enough. You guys have me 5X off that. Its clear that those arguing with me on this underestimate my abilities. I may not be a great suspension guy like you Dan, i GO to guys like you to figure my junk out. But i know my weight-reduction.
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If you start with the right Mopar you can get them slightly under class weights, but there isn't going to be much into the car.
'Class weights'...???
I dont need much. We all build our own cars. I'm not talking the typical 'pro-tour' build here with more comfort than my living room.
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The Challenger and the Road Runner are cleaned out caged cars, full steel except for their hoods. Aluminium topped motors (heads and intakes) and are pretty stripped down but retain "factory appearing" and still work as cars to be tagged and titled, horns, wipers etc.
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.
So, about 3400lbs no driver no gas then? Maybe 3320-40 without jack and spare? Thats a bit over 200lbs over my projected smallblock weight.
Six packs are heavy, even aluminum manifold ones, as are factory air cleaner assemblies... even if they are bloody cool. Stock T/A hoods are heavy (if its OEM), i see power steering, does it have power brakes? I see a full interior, and i'll assume that all the usual factory stuff (sound deadener, seam-seal turds, insulation, cardboard, underlay, etc.) hides underneath? I forget, is that a factory (iron) Mopar 4-speed too?
Damn nice car... and one ov my favorites, but i bet there is still a LOT to do left on that car. You want to know why i say that with certainty? I cant afford Forgelines.
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All that said, you want a light car...
Our 65 Mustang R&D car I have been driving this year to develop our kit, has an all steel 5.0 Roller out of a 93 Explorer, T-5 from a swapmeet, and a 9" out of an icecream truck. 2 layers of insulation and is a complete car, tunes, heater, wipers. - 3090lbs. no driver 1/2 bag of gas.
I'm with ya there. Like i said before... i've got another little secret project in the works along those lines...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1494289
09/25/13 10:06 AM
09/25/13 10:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Pale Roader, explain to me how my 72 is automatically heavier than a 70?
Shipping weights pretty much increase every single year. Sometimes 5lbs, sometimes 100+. Every year Big Brother tries to save a few more lives (or make a few more bucks) by mandating more and more stuff that used to be optional, or just new stuff altogether. Cars get heavier, parts get heavier, cars get quieter, smoother... a LOT ov this is NVH reduction. Cant speak specifically for Darts, but in most cars even the visibly identical 72 bumpers are heavier than the 70. Some a lot more. Brackets grew. Brackets multiplied. More options often means more wiring. As everything got "better" everything got heavier... it wasn't just dropping compression ratios that killed performance in the 70's. Look around today... you have small little Civic-sized cars with aluminum EVERYTHING, fibre-optic wiring, lightweight EVERYTHING... with weight-reduction technology that would seem space-age in 1970... and they still weigh close to 3000lbs.
Will someone please explain to me how a 72 Pinto Runabout (stripper) weighs 165lbs more than (pretty much the EXACT SAME) 1971 Runabout? There's some homework for ya...
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I like your ideas man but, you seem to think your the first guy to think of removing a spare tire from the trunk to save weight.
Hardly. Hey... i argue for modern engine/drivetrain components too... and its usually with the guys here that think a Mopar .509 cam and open headers solve all problems. Just because it worked, even worked well before doesn't mean that someone hasn't found a better way.
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Been there and done it with a Dart already and have PROOF of the results.
Do you have a site or build-thread detailing everything done/put into your Dart? I'd like to see what you've got.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1494290
09/25/13 10:18 AM
09/25/13 10:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Next to Mitch's Challenger, this has to be one of the lighter Challengers out there. Not a slam, but I think you pointed out the simplest reason in that many don't think about not adding weight and they start adding this and that and before you know it, you have a 3800# E body. My '74 Challenger was the biggest pig in my collection at 3600+ My '67 was the lightest street car at 3200# with full undercoating. I did get one of my drag cars down to 3000# without swiss cheesing it and using all steel panels, but it was gutted pretty good and I sorted through stacks of parts to find the lightest combinations of pieces
That weight i posted was the current (6cyl/3-speed/7 1/4") 'survivor' weight, adjusted for the heavier stuff i added (so it looks pretty in my driveway) and the stuff missing or already removed. Again, i'm not weighing this stuff on a bathroom scale here, and i have mounds ov collected info.
The 74 E-body is a heavy car. I wouldn't be surprised if it shipped pretty much equal weight to a similarly equipped late 60's B-body, or heavier. But again... my 72 Charger SE was a heavier car still... 3900lbs the day i bought it (with very lightweight 14x6" aluminum slots). It was all-metal with VERY little in the way ov lightweight pieces (and quite a few very heavy things i would never use on my Challenger) i had that tank down to 3550lbs empty.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494291
09/25/13 12:24 PM
09/25/13 12:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,593
USA
VS29H0B
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,593
USA
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Will someone please explain to me how a 72 Pinto Runabout (stripper) weighs 165lbs more than (pretty much the EXACT SAME) 1971 Runabout? There's some homework for ya...
Brand new - back in the day - A friend had a 1972 Pinto, German sourced 2 liter OHC engine with factory 4 speed (was not a hatch Runabout with large glass hatch setup -rather it was the standard body with the trunk) ....IIRC ... 1972 had mandated 2.5 MPH front and rear bumpers ... and some side impact protection added ....in 1973/74, the bumpers mandate went to required 5 MPH and side impact also was also updated? So those 1973/74 changes resulted in other components also being changed/more reinforcements-brackets, etc. all leading to ...more weight?
Good thread and good discussion...Thx!
Those early Pintos were feather weights compared to later model...
[
Like the women I have dated --- Always looking for a better deal ....
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1494292
09/25/13 03:15 PM
09/25/13 03:15 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Quote:
Quote:
Pale Roader, explain to me how my 72 is automatically heavier than a 70?
Shipping weights pretty much increase every single year. Sometimes 5lbs, sometimes 100+. Every year Big Brother tries to save a few more lives (or make a few more bucks) by mandating more and more stuff that used to be optional, or just new stuff altogether. Cars get heavier, parts get heavier, cars get quieter, smoother... a LOT ov this is NVH reduction. Cant speak specifically for Darts, but in most cars even the visibly identical 72 bumpers are heavier than the 70. Some a lot more. Brackets grew. Brackets multiplied. More options often means more wiring. As everything got "better" everything got heavier... it wasn't just dropping compression ratios that killed performance in the 70's. Look around today... you have small little Civic-sized cars with aluminum EVERYTHING, fibre-optic wiring, lightweight EVERYTHING... with weight-reduction technology that would seem space-age in 1970... and they still weigh close to 3000lbs.
Will someone please explain to me how a 72 Pinto Runabout (stripper) weighs 165lbs more than (pretty much the EXACT SAME) 1971 Runabout? There's some homework for ya...
Quote:
I like your ideas man but, you seem to think your the first guy to think of removing a spare tire from the trunk to save weight.
Hardly. Hey... i argue for modern engine/drivetrain components too... and its usually with the guys here that think a Mopar .509 cam and open headers solve all problems. Just because it worked, even worked well before doesn't mean that someone hasn't found a better way.
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Been there and done it with a Dart already and have PROOF of the results.
Do you have a site or build-thread detailing everything done/put into your Dart? I'd like to see what you've got.
the car was first put together with frame connectors and setup as a street/strip car in 1998 and I'm not sure it had the glass hood yet when it was scaled then and weighed #3260. In all honesty with the lift off hood it could weigh 3210 or less. My 72 has no difference in bumpers from a 71 because it actually has 71 bumpers,but the originals were identical except for little bumper guards. I was going to scale my car 2 weeks ago before I pulled the BB out, but ended up having to get the engine out sooner rather than later and it didn't happen. I failed myself on that one because I wanted before and after gen III weights. IMO if I was starting from scratch I would snatch up a 65 v200 and build that. Those cars are stupid light.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494294
09/25/13 04:00 PM
09/25/13 04:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
All of this discussion on weights etc makes me think of how certain cars fit into class rules better than others.
The easy part is I know a 4000# b body will not out lap a spec Mazda miata on a tight twisty course......
Those miatas having nothing but grip, which is why they have their own class in scca I believe, if you get a chance to drive one, do it, you just may end up buying one lol
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: dangina]
#1494295
09/25/13 04:59 PM
09/25/13 04:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Quote:
Quote:
All of this discussion on weights etc makes me think of how certain cars fit into class rules better than others.
The easy part is I know a 4000# b body will not out lap a spec Mazda miata on a tight twisty course......
Those miatas having nothing but grip, which is why they have their own class in scca I believe, if you get a chance to drive one, do it, you just may end up buying one lol
That would require another thread..... 
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: VS29H0B]
#1494296
09/26/13 07:33 AM
09/26/13 07:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Will someone please explain to me how a 72 Pinto Runabout (stripper) weighs 165lbs more than (pretty much the EXACT SAME) 1971 Runabout? There's some homework for ya...
Brand new - back in the day - A friend had a 1972 Pinto, German sourced 2 liter OHC engine with factory 4 speed (was not a hatch Runabout with large glass hatch setup -rather it was the standard body with the trunk) ....IIRC ... 1972 had mandated 2.5 MPH front and rear bumpers ... and some side impact protection added ....in 1973/74, the bumpers mandate went to required 5 MPH and side impact also was also updated? So those 1973/74 changes resulted in other components also being changed/more reinforcements-brackets, etc. all leading to ...more weight?
Good thread and good discussion...Thx!
Those early Pintos were feather weights compared to later model...
[
Yup... and those 72 bumpers were 100% indistinguishable from 71's from every angle you could see... unless you flipped 'em over. Even then... minimal difference. The irony is, the 73 bumpers, while still considered 'small bumper' cars, were visibly more involved and different, with longer brackets... and the cars gained less weight that year. The 74-up bumpers were massive, bulky and ugly, and added 140lbs to the cars over the 71's, all said and done. Side impact beams (how big could they even be?), FG headlight buckets vs metal ones, different seat belts, less glass and more metal in the hatch... I know a bit more than i'm letting on here, but i'm telling you, 165lbs is a LOT ov weight in such a tiny car.
To further make my point, my 76 'MPG' (factory stripper) trunk model was 2450lbs, with zero options save the 8" rearend (which may have been standard with the 4-speed?). Thats over 500lbs heavier than a 71. Park them side by side and have 5 average car guys pore over them... i defy you to find much more than 100lbs difference over and above the big bumpers. Yet... its there. And thats just a freakin' Pinto... pretty much the smallest, flimsiest American car made around the same time. Park a Dart, or an E-body beside a Pinto...
Now i'll belabor my point by pointing out how many Pinto guys think the same way as some here, and are quick to point out that an 'MPG' Pinto is the perfect starter car if you want a light race car. Stripped out, no options (usually, though you could get them). Just put the early bumpers/valences on 'em and you have a 'light' 71-2 Pinto to build on. MY math says that 'light' Pinto still weighs almost 400lbs more than if you'd just started with a 71. I'm thinking that even the Feather Duster falls into this trap. Last i checked it was approximately the same shipping weight as the 72 Duster.
And an edit: 72Swinger IS apparently going to make a liar out ov me it seems. Upon some quick research, i find that for some odd reason, Dart's and Dusters actually LOST weight in 1972. Approx 40lbs, which was then gained back in 73 with the remodels. I checked a few different sources to find this. The new models started a bit heavier in 70, about the same in 71, then lost a bunch for the one year. I'd be very interested to know what happened between 71 and 72 to cause this. Its an A-body thing... the E's steadily got heavier over time, as did the B's and C's.
But... i continue to belabor my belabored point by saying that going past this odd little (and virtually unknown) anomaly ov the one year, 72Swinger would have been a lot further ahead in the weight dept. had he started with a 69 Dart, or better, a 68. 67's were lighter still.
Incidentally, your 72 Swinger's shipping weight was 2845lbs, exactly 160lbs more than my Challenger. The shipping weight ov a 67 base Dart 2dr was 2710lbs.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1494297
09/26/13 07:44 AM
09/26/13 07:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
My '74 Challenger was the biggest pig in my collection at 3600+
The shipping weight on a base 318 70 Challenger is about 3080lbs, for a base 318 74 its 3225lbs. I cant compare absolute base models, as they didn't make 6cyl Challengers in 74, but the (as close as i could find it) difference is about 145lbs between yours and mine. I helped a friend tear down a 74 so he could part it and there were a few things that i'd never seen before in my 70 and 72's. One thing that i'll never forget was those big massive bulletproof steel plates behind the rear interior panels... i'm assuming to bolster the window cranks (which were always flimsy). Those suckers were heavy. Plus those fat-ass seat belts. It all adds up. Everyone is always looking to take 10-50lbs outta the car to save weight. A true dietician will look for 1lbs where he can find it. The weight-reduction genius will look for a few grams...
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1494298
09/26/13 08:57 AM
09/26/13 08:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
E-Max: As raced, me in it, 1/2 bag of gas - 3776lbs
(That is driving straight from the track to a set of scales.)
Road Runner: Last weight for a competition event tech: 3556lbs,
Full bag of gas, no driver.
Just for reference....
Mine is 3880 with me in it( I'm 270) full tank of fuel ( 451 stroker, all the aluminum you can bolt on heads etc.., Dana 60, 4L60)
With me out...
LF 1021 RF 1039
LR 771 RR 779
TOTAL= 3611
rear 42.9%
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494300
09/26/13 11:28 AM
09/26/13 11:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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I had a gutted 72 Scamp 340 that was set up as a drag car and it was 3000lbs with enough fluids in it to drive it , the only thing it really had other than working lights was windshield wipers. No heater, carpet, 904 trans, plastic fuel cell, drum brakes ect. If I had turned that car into something set up for road racing my guess is it would pick up a least 100 lbs in brakes and tires, 20-30 lbs for sway bars and increased in torsion bar size, 20 lbs for a better cooling system and accusump, plus the extra weight of a 4,5 or 6 speed transmission over the 904 say 30 lbs. That would put it in the 3150-3200 lb range, I could see a completely gutted E body with small block with lots of fiberglass weight something in this range if you put your mind to it.
Now my guess would be just like my Scamp after you would go through all this you would end up leaving in the corner of the garage as no one would want to drive in it for more than 10 minutes.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494302
09/26/13 07:14 PM
09/26/13 07:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
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Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:
Pale Roader when does the build on your Challenger start?
I had spoke with a guy that makes T/A and AAR hoods show quality and eliminating the factory faults, bowing and the track marks showing through. These hoods weigh just under 50#....you can get race weighr hoods around 25# fron VFN at half the cost of the show hoods.
I had a brand new T/A hood, from a guy up here that does nice work (T&N Fiberglass). It weighed 24-25lbs. I didn't get to scale it, but thats what he said, and it was light. That was a really solid, bolt-on hood too... every detail like the factory. I had to sell it last year but i'll get another.
I dont know exactly what the stock flat hoods weigh, but i've heard around 80lbs from many sources. I know they're bloody heavy, and i'm a pretty strong guy...
The build starts as soon as i get this other car stuff sorted (just bought a new daily driver, still fixing issues). And ov course now that i've abandoned big block plans, i'm looking for another engine and all the details again.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: dannysbee]
#1494304
09/27/13 01:29 AM
09/27/13 01:29 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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I would be all over that but it's white...... This is cool but its a 2012. I prefer the 2013 - 14's.This car is setup for tracking.... http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?nav=item.view&id=121179754518This one needs the Recaro seats. There is no way you could build an old Mopar that looks and drives as good as these 2 cars here for 25k. We are talking about purchase of an old Mopar and bringing the suspension, brakes, wheels and tires up to par with the handling and braking ability of these two cars. Some have posted before you need to be rich to write the check to buy a new(er) Mustang. Buy one two to three years old and your getting a true bargain.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: PHJ426]
#1494305
09/27/13 01:48 AM
09/27/13 01:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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My 14 is identical to the 13 posted. My car has sync, it may not. Throw some matte black boss stripes on it.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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