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Boring a 440 and temperature change
#1479978
08/05/13 10:28 AM
08/05/13 10:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,828
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Houston, Tx
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Hey gang..
My friend's '71 Challenger R/T I've been working on finally hit the road. We took it up to the gas station to put about 10 gals in it and then used a flatbed to get it to the shop for its front end alignment. It ran rather hot. The 440 has been punched out 30 over. The radiator is an OEM 22" with a 4-core and direct fan ( as it was originally ) with shroud. The radiator is brand new. The sending unit is brand new and it had sufficient coolant. He decided to have the thermostat swapped out since it had been sitting in the motor for nearly 8 years prior to firing it up and having coolant in it. So, would boring it cause it to run at idle at 210? Is this a temperature we should be overly concerned about?
Thanks in advance...
T
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: JohnRR]
#1479980
08/05/13 10:41 AM
08/05/13 10:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,828
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Quote:
Idling at 210, that's way to hot, check timing and coolant flow. What is he using for a gauge to come up with 210 ?
That I don't know... I would assume the shop is using a remote temperature IR gauge. It was measured at the thermostat..... Not sure about that.... They were thinking of trying a 165 versus a 185, but once open, it should open and cool............ I'm just not used to motors that have been bored, all my 440's I've ever had were standard bore........
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: hemi68charger]
#1479982
08/05/13 10:47 AM
08/05/13 10:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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U.S.S.A.
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I had a friend that had a 440 that was bored .060 over that had a cooling issue but I think that had to do with it being set up as a drag motor with a big lumpy cam and he swapped it into a car and put stock manifolds on it and more so I think his trans was toast. That aside , if boring that engine .030 raised his idle temp 40-50 degrees I'd be afraid to even start the engine as the cylinder walls are going to crack.  What I'm trying to say is that there are 10's of thousands of engines overbored that much . Look elsewhere for the problem. Also you know what happens when you ASSuME ... find out how they are reading the temp .
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: JohnRR]
#1479983
08/05/13 11:06 AM
08/05/13 11:06 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,828
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Quote:
I had a friend that had a 440 that was bored .060 over that had a cooling issue but I think that had to do with it being set up as a drag motor with a big lumpy cam and he swapped it into a car and put stock manifolds on it and more so I think his trans was toast.
That aside , if boring that engine .030 raised his idle temp 40-50 degrees I'd be afraid to even start the engine as the cylinder walls are going to crack. What I'm trying to say is that there are 10's of thousands of engines overbored that much . Look elsewhere for the problem.
Also you know what happens when you ASSuME ... find out how they are reading the temp .
Yes, I do know all about assumptions. I'm reflecting what I know at 8:30 this morning. I haven't gotten any feedback yet from my friend r the shop.
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: hemi68charger]
#1479984
08/05/13 11:22 AM
08/05/13 11:22 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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confirm actual temp. A good fan properly spaced 1/2 way into the shroud. Check pulley ratios. stat not opening all the way (rare). adequate initial timimg. dont change the stat temp. #1 need adequate airflow for idle overheating issues.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1479986
08/05/13 11:35 AM
08/05/13 11:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
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Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Quote:
confirm actual temp. A good fan properly spaced 1/2 way into the shroud. Check pulley ratios. stat not opening all the way (rare). adequate initial timimg. dont change the stat temp. #1 need adequate airflow for idle overheating issues.
All the pulleys and system are OEM. The radiator is 4-row recored 22" with shroud and direct drive fan ( original to 22"-equipped cars ). The thermostat that was in it was a 180/5 ( but sat in the motor for many years without coolant after it was rebuilt ). He had the motor rebuilt 8 years ago and then lost interest. I started putting the car back together about a year ago. Motor fired up no problem and purrs like a kitten. It has MSD-6A with TTI headers. Carbs are fresh Holley-restorations. Temp sending unit is NOS mopar. New harnesses all the way. I may, once we get the car back to my house, try the avenue I went with my Daytona, distilled water and Water Wetter with lubricant.
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1479991
08/05/13 02:11 PM
08/05/13 02:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,082
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Lean? Timing issue? clogged passages? air bubble?
I'd be looking at these things, a stock 440 engine should idle happily with his setup and a 4 row radiator unless it's 130 degrees ambient temperture. The factory wouldn't have have sent it out the door if the 22" system was not adequate.
Troy, I see it has headers , how built up is the engine ? I ASSuMEd is was totally stock since you were the one asking the question ...
another dumb question ... how long was it idling that it got that hot , 5 mins ??? 2 hours ???
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: JohnRR]
#1479992
08/05/13 02:41 PM
08/05/13 02:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,828
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Quote:
Quote:
Lean? Timing issue? clogged passages? air bubble?
I'd be looking at these things, a stock 440 engine should idle happily with his setup and a 4 row radiator unless it's 130 degrees ambient temperture. The factory wouldn't have have sent it out the door if the 22" system was not adequate.
Troy, I see it has headers , how built up is the engine ? I ASSuMEd is was totally stock since you were the one asking the question ...
another dumb question ... how long was it idling that it got that hot , 5 mins ??? 2 hours ???
John,
The warmest it got was last Thursday when we took her out on her maiden voyage to the Shell gas station down the street. It was about 1 mile one way, not very far....... All the other times we ran the car in the garage, it wasn't for very long. THe longest running prior to this was the initial start up when we cycled it through various rpm ranges three times.... The camshaft is a healthy one, but not too bad. It is still a hydraulic version with good low-end vacuum since it is a 6bbl and has power brakes..... The timing isn't incredibly far advanced. I think it is a combination of a brand new motor and the heat attributed to new-motor friction. The garage called the engine builder this morning and they both agree with the 165 thermostat and the use of Water Wetter like I did in my Daytona. I totally agree, the 22" should not be an issue....... I'll wait to get it back and then reevaluate. Today though, after they align the front end, they will replace the thermostat with the 165..... It is going to the body shop afterwards to repair some defects/chips in the paint from sitting in his garage so long.........
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1479994
08/05/13 11:12 PM
08/05/13 11:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,828
Houston, Tx
hemi68charger
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Quote:
Who recored the radiator? I would be suspect of that.I didn't think they had 4 row radiators from the factory back then, but I might be wrong.Also I read somewhere that after the the air gets past the 3rd row its heated up enough that its not going to cool anymore.Call Glen Ray, they are very nice and helpful.
The core is an aftermarket product; so yes, I agree with you, there was no 4-core 22"s back then.... Don't really think the rad's the culprit. My gut is a brand new motor and VERY few hours on it ( maybe two hours total with initial start-up and driving to the gas station last Thursday )....
TroyHouston Mopar Connection Club'69 Charger Daytona 440 - auto - 4.10 Dana (now with 426 hemi) '69 Charger 500 440 - 4speed - 3.54 Dana '70 Road Runner 383 - 4speed - a/c (now with 440)
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Re: Boring a 440 and temperature change
[Re: 71birdJ68]
#1479996
08/06/13 08:50 AM
08/06/13 08:50 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
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North Carolina
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Quote:
Well in the airplane world, elevated head temps are expected till after breakin.And that stock.
 Same in the automotive world. When mechanics usually do the initial break-in of a newly rebuilt motor, they will often put a huge fan blowing on the radiator and even have a water hose running cool water right into the radiator with the petcock opened to drain.
Before break-in motor is going to be really tight, lots of friction and carburetor is probably NOT tuned for the new build so improper fuel mixture will cause higher temps.
That being said, a 22" radiator for a warmed up 440 isn't leaving a lot of margin for error here. I would have gone with a 26" if you aren't concerned about originality. Not saying you won't be able to cool the motor down with the 22" but you are fighting an uphill battle there.
It would be useful to get a big (I mean BIG) fan and have it blowing on that radiator simulating cruising airflow and see if the temp doesn't come down. This will tell you if the radiator is the issue or if your cooling fan itself isn't doing it's job. 
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