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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: 360view]
#1468588
07/17/13 09:17 AM
07/17/13 09:17 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
It is worth remembering that
the lower horsepower consumed by an electric fan at full throttle
can not last more than a minute or so,
beause the engine will overheat.
Explain this please. If your car is at full throttle most likely it's moving quite quickly, then the radiator is doing most of the cooling and not the fan as it's not needed to get airflow.
A clutch fan would be slipping at higher RPM's anyways..so how's this different than an electric fan?
I can see if you were going up a steep mountain with a large load in first gear moving slowly at high rev's where the additional air flow potential of a mechanical fan would be useful. How many here are towing large loads up mountains in Death Valley with their classic Mopars here? Even so, if that were a concern, you can install bigger electric fans to deal with these extreme circumstances.
I'm not advocating one is better than the other here...I see pros and cons to each. I just object to people who spread misinformation like "you won't be able to effectively cool your engine with electric fans...just go clutch".
IDK...maybe I'm just the one lucky SOB here who has an engine that cools just fine with electric fans? 
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468589
07/17/13 12:18 PM
07/17/13 12:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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Quote:
Quote:
It is worth remembering that
the lower horsepower consumed by an electric fan at full throttle
can not last more than a minute or so,
beause the engine will overheat.
Explain this please. If your car is at full throttle most likely it's moving quite quickly, then the radiator is doing most of the cooling and not the fan as it's not needed to get airflow.
A clutch fan would be slipping at higher RPM's anyways..so how's this different than an electric fan?
I can see if you were going up a steep mountain with a large load in first gear moving slowly at high rev's where the additional air flow potential of a mechanical fan would be useful. How many here are towing large loads up mountains in Death Valley with their classic Mopars here? Even so, if that were a concern, you can install bigger electric fans to deal with these extreme circumstances.
I'm not advocating one is better than the other here...I see pros and cons to each. I just object to people who spread misinformation like "you won't be able to effectively cool your engine with electric fans...just go clutch".
IDK...maybe I'm just the one lucky SOB here who has an engine that cools just fine with electric fans?
At highway speeds you should be able to remove the fan completely and the engine will still stay cool. I have run many cars/trucks with the mechanical fan completely removed (no fan at all) and the only time they would get hot was in slow moving/stopped traffic. My 68 cuda when it had the 402 stroked 318, my 2000 ram, 2000 dakota, 86 5th ave... and none of them got hot pulling trailers up mountain passes in 100+ heat. You can feel a big difference in power when you ditch them.
I have not found any aftermarket fans that would keep the big motors cool at idle, got to get a good OEM unit.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: RangerDan440]
#1468592
07/17/13 02:27 PM
07/17/13 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
why is this such a "heated" debate?
I kill me
Perhaps we need to cool it down a bit... 
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: RangerDan440]
#1468594
07/17/13 03:59 PM
07/17/13 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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Incredible... Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans.. Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...  Just my $0.02... 
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Sinitro]
#1468595
07/17/13 04:10 PM
07/17/13 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free. 
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan. 
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: tee-john]
#1468597
07/17/13 09:40 PM
07/17/13 09:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 95
United States
tee-john
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 95
United States
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Quote:
Thanks guys, that gives me enough info to stay with a clutch type fan. Now all I need is a shroud that will fit.
I am having terrible clearance issues between my water pump nose and the electric fan center hub. I don't want to cut up my car to shim the radiator forward. My car did run at my thermostat range in south LA in summer time even without a shroud. It is a champion 4 core which I am satisfied with. I had to do some engine work and other things so that's why I am trying to change up a bit. But , I did go through 4 water pumps in less than 2000 miles. Some guys say it may be my clutch fan out of wack or belt to tight. IDK. My water pumps were all milodon. This is the Grim Reaper Barracuda from Florida. Yea it's killin me. I am a Cajun and I do have a double barrel 12 gauge in the shop but I just can't shoot the car yet. Lol. Jk to the sensitive ones.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Sinitro]
#1468598
07/17/13 10:12 PM
07/17/13 10:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk !
The village idiot's idiot
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The village idiot's idiot
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
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Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
...and it is uNcredible that you did not mention how little the electrics have to stay on during normal driving ... 
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468599
07/17/13 10:43 PM
07/17/13 10:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free.
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan.
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt.
I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem?
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1468600
07/18/13 08:18 AM
07/18/13 08:18 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free.
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan.
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt.
I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem?
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else.  So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468601
07/18/13 10:28 AM
07/18/13 10:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Quote:
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
Well, that explains it.
Dummy down "well planned" till it fits your situation then call it good enough. Why don't you turn up your idle speed or get a smaller alternator pulley and fix your "well planned" setup.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: Supercuda]
#1468602
07/18/13 11:25 AM
07/18/13 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
cjskotni
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,526
North Carolina
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Quote:
Quote:
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
Well, that explains it.
Dummy down "well planned" till it fits your situation then call it good enough. Why don't you turn up your idle speed or get a smaller alternator pulley and fix your "well planned" setup.
Wow tough crowd here.
So everything is a compromise, right? I don't want a giant honken obviously aftermarket alternator on my car. It would be wonderful to have a factory appearing alternator that put out 120 amps at idle but such a thing doesn't exist to my knowledge.
The discharge doesn't endanger my wiring or affect my drivability so I am satisfied with how it works for me. It is way better than factory which many people here deal with all the time.
So it's not 'dumbing down', it's your opinion that my setup isn't 'good enough' to be 'well-planned' apparently.
Also good luck finding a smaller double-groove pulley for the alternator.
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468603
07/18/13 02:25 PM
07/18/13 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
Sinitro
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,439
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
Quote:
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free.
OK lets do a little caculation..
The mechanical fan draws 10 HP, and the alternator driving electric fans draws 8 HP so one loses 2HP..
Quote:
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan.
Isn't that the advantage of a clutch fan, no draw when cruisin down the road..
Quote:
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
If one needs 100 Amps than definitely an well-planned upgrade is required.. 
Just my $0.02...
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Re: Clutch fan VS electric fan
[Re: cjskotni]
#1468606
07/18/13 07:47 PM
07/18/13 07:47 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Incredible...
Nobody has mentioned the HP drop when the alternator kicks in to drive those (2) electric fans..
Electric fans can draw up to 35 Amps, while many OE Mopar alternators were only rated < 50 Amps...
Just my $0.02...
HP drop was measured and factored into the dyno tests. HP drop is much less than that of a mechanical fan but yes, there is an additional load placed on the alternator from the electric fan. After all, nothing is free.
That being said an electric fan can cut off entirely when it's not needed (ZERO loss) unlike a mechanical fan.
As I already mentioned, adding electric fans will most likely necessitate upgrades to the charging circuit or you will create more problems. As for my car, I went to a 100 amp alternator and I don't have discharge unless I am idling in gear/lights on/AC on/hi blower/fans on @ the same time. This all goes back to the "well-planned" part I talked about.
I wouldn't call that "well planned" if your car discharges at idle with everything on. That's not any good.
I recently installed a 99 amp powermaster alt in my ride. Made a huge improvement and it put's out good down low. I also put my lights and AC on relays and my lights stay bright at idle now, 13.9-14.1 volts bright at idle with the new alt.
I can't stand when a car discharges at night and the headlites dim. I always kept my foot on the gas some to keep the Rs up so my headlites stayed on. No more.
I think this powermaster could handle a 30 amp fan at idle?? Don't know it might be a problem?
Seriously? The OEM setup on my car 60 amp alternator would be discharging at idle if you turned on the lights and nothing else. So yeah, I'd say that only having a minor discharge with everything on at 700-750 rpm idle is absolutely acceptable considering a 20 amp draw from the fans which may or may not be on.
100 amp alternator is the biggest you can get for any reasonable amount of money that drops in and appears factory. My unit has the same specs as yours so I bet with yours...you'd be in the same boat.
Ask Powermaster what they define as 'idle'. I bet its 2400 alternator RPMs which would equate to 800 engine RPMs which I'm not running that high in gear. Since the output of an alternator is profoundly NOT linear in the lower ranges, this means you see significantly less than the stated idle output...that is unless you up your idle so your running 800 rpm in gear.
Sure enough, if I put the car in park/neutral, the RPM's rise closer to 800 and the discharge is gone.
But back to my original point, my charging circuit isn't perfect as it still can discharge in a few cases but it is 500% better than the factory performance. It looks factory without having some huge GM alternator on my engine. So yeah, I can accept a slight (<10 amps) discharge when I have ALL my accessories on at idle in gear and yes, I consider that well-planned.
I bet your right, that's why I run a mechanical clutch fan that has been bullet proof for me.
FWIW back in the 80s I had a 340 challenger that overheated. It was a black 72 without AC. That car was cursed and all my friends hated it because I also had starter issues and they had to push start me all the time and the car was black and hot.
After about a year of that non sense I figured out that the clutch was bad on my fan. After I replaced it my overheating went completely away.
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