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2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
#145505
11/04/08 02:31 PM
11/04/08 02:31 PM
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Ansonia, CT
CJK440
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My wifes car is dead in a parking lot. All was well when she stopped at lunch time. Now the car turns over fine, fires then immediately dies.
Of course she had a scanner with her thats not throwing any codes.
A couple weeks ago I replaced the cam pos sensor because 3 days in a row the car engine would just die on her morning commute. Once I swapped the sensor it was fine until now.
I'm thinking the Crank pos sensor might be faulty??
The fact that it fires up but wont stay running is puzzling.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145506
11/04/08 02:46 PM
11/04/08 02:46 PM
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Joined: May 2003
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St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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Should be throwing a P0016
Hmm....
Positive on fuel delivery?
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#145507
11/04/08 03:09 PM
11/04/08 03:09 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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No codes unless my Actron reader is not picking them up. Back when I had troubles before it didn't throw any codes even when the car wouldn't fire.
I would assume if the fuel pump was bad, repeated attempts to start would eventually result in no fire at all when rail pressure was nil.
The cam sensor was a B/W part from Advance Auto.
Whats the point of 2 sensors? The cams don't change phasing in relation to the crank at all do they??
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#145513
11/05/08 10:22 AM
11/05/08 10:22 AM
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Ansonia, CT
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I swapped the crank sensor for insurance. The one I took out looked identical to the one I replaced.
We'll see what happens.
I would guess that a crapped up IAC pintle or TB would slowly deteriorate performance wise right? Do the IAC motors react to cleaning or do they need to be replaced??
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145514
11/05/08 06:19 PM
11/05/08 06:19 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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Today my wife got stuck again. Same issue but its throwing code P1391 which is intermitant loss of cam or crank position. AAA is bringing it home soon and I guess I am going to go on a witch hunt for bad wiring or connectors. 
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145515
11/05/08 08:30 PM
11/05/08 08:30 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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Of course when the AAA guy gets there, it starts right up with no issue.  So I let it idle in the driveway for a while and it eventually dies out. So I scan for codes and now it showing 725?? But then I decide to check the codes using the car by cycling the ignition 3 times fast, I get a whole different set of codes.... I'm getting P0320 which is no crank ref signal at PCM. P1389 which has to do with the auto shutdown relay (the engine stopped but key was not turned off) and last but not least the same P1391 which is the intermittant cam/crank pos signal. I pulled the sensor and checked the connector. Fooled with it and reinstalled and it started back up. Again, when I let it idle it died again. Same codes. I guess something is breaking the connection when the car warms up and reconnects when it cools down..........
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145516
11/06/08 08:01 AM
11/06/08 08:01 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,430
St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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Sounds like both cam and a crank sensor replace.
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: moepwr]
#145518
11/06/08 10:33 AM
11/06/08 10:33 AM
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Ansonia, CT
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I just put a new timing belt on it. The cam sensor was replaced about a month ago. Crank sensor 2 days ago.
I am also getting p1389 wich is an auto shutdown relay fault after the car dies. I was assuming it was because the engine stopped running while the key was on. But somebody elsewhere suggested that the relay may be failing when warm and killing the motor also causing the intermittant signal and loss of crank signal.
It definatley sounds plausable.
Another thing I noted is that my universal Actron scan tool doesn't pick up all the codes compared to cycling the ignition 3 times fast......
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145524
11/06/08 04:47 PM
11/06/08 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,072
Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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Louisville, KY.
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Quote:
The cam sensor was replaced about a month ago. Crank sensor 2 days ago.
Did you use Mopar parts? Most of the aftermarket sensors I've seen don't work very well.
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Scottmon]
#145525
11/06/08 09:09 PM
11/06/08 09:09 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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No the cam sensor replaced a while ago is a Borg Warner sensor. The crank sensor that I just replaced is a GP Sorensen part. Both Advance auto parts. I threw the Auto Shutdown relay in it and it made no difference. I backtraced the crank sensor wires and they seem OK. I even threw the old crank sensor in while the car was still hot thinking the sensors heat up and fail and no change. Its very repeatable now. Once warm it shuts off. Let it cool and starts up fine. Still getting the P0320 code along with the 1389 and 1391.  I'm thinking my 2 options are swap both the cam and crank sensors with mopar parts or swap out the PCM.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145527
11/07/08 11:07 AM
11/07/08 11:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 5,033
Ontario
5537SG
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Ontario
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I believe the PCM marries the Anti theft unit or vice versa. Ive been watching this thread, but theres just not alot of info pointing me in any direction. I doubt theres a problem with the PCM, and I think if you could actually hook it up to a real scan tool and see some data stream info youd be much farther ahead. I do love those cars, so when you give up, I'll come get it  Just for kicks though, try unplugging the ABS computer, run it, and see if anything changes. The ABS computers have a tendency to go haywire and disturb the other systems ( trans, body, etc...)
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#145528
11/07/08 11:24 AM
11/07/08 11:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,064
Arlington, Texas
earlybee
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Quote:
Also, in my experience (my cars only). A fire/die (won't idle) has tended to be an idle speed motor/throttle body needing cleaned. A dirty throttle body won't set a code.
 Has it ever been cleaned?
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: earlybee]
#145530
11/07/08 11:49 AM
11/07/08 11:49 AM
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Ansonia, CT
CJK440
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I did not clean ityet . I can definately do that but why would it only stall when it gets hot and then throw a crank pos sensor code when it dies.
I'll try it anyway just to cover my bases.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145531
11/07/08 07:59 PM
11/07/08 07:59 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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I stopped at the dealer, bought a new Mopar cam and crank sensor. Came home, fired the car up, let it get hot and it died and wouldn't start.
So I quickly swapped cam sensors first and voila! fired right up and idled for an hour without a hickup.......
Road test tomorrow but it appears the Advance Auto Bork Warner sensor would get hot, fail and throw a CRANK sensor code!!! That experience will make me buy OE sensors from now on.
Oy!! I hope this is all behind me because I was really ready to drive it into an oak tree.....
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145532
11/13/08 02:34 PM
11/13/08 02:34 PM
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Ansonia, CT
CJK440
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Well, today my wife went shopping at lunch. When she got back in the car it was sputtering and surging all the way back to work. She didn't think she was going to make it.
It throws codes P1684 (battery disconnected within 50 starts) & P1391 (Intermittant crank or cam pos signal). This is with a Mopar cam and crank sensor not even a week old.....
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Jim L]
#145535
11/13/08 04:08 PM
11/13/08 04:08 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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Anybody want a mechanics special???
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145536
11/13/08 04:25 PM
11/13/08 04:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,072
Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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Check your engine compartment harness connecters working back to the PCM. I know my Daytona IROC R/T had wiring issues like that when I got it so I uncoupled and cleaned all the connectors. Check that the harness didn't get chafed and is grounding from when you did the engine swap. If that doesn't get it you'll probably need to hook up a scan tool and datalog the cam and crank sensors to find which one is dropping out and trace the wiring back to the PCM. Check the resistance of the circuit from end to end, even try jiggling the harness to make sure the connection doesn't break. If all tests good it's new PCM time. It's simply a process of eliminaton to work your way back through the cam and crank circuit from the sensors to the PCM. Might want to let the wife drive something else until you find the problem though...DAMHIK
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Jim L]
#145538
11/13/08 05:23 PM
11/13/08 05:23 PM
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Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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Quote:
Must have missed some info, when did you do the engine swap? When did you do the timing belt?
I remembered from a previous thread that he'd swapped the motor.
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Scottmon]
#145539
11/13/08 06:20 PM
11/13/08 06:20 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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OK more info. Wife made it home after work (sitting for 4 hours) and it wasn't surging, she said it did feel odd though. When it sat in the driveway for a half hour I came home and drove it and immediately it started bucking. Apparently it is also a heat related issue.
Unlike my previous problems, there is no stalling. It fires up and purrs like a kitten no hiccups at all. Only when you put a load on the engine will it buck and surge. I drove it down the street and if I very very carefully accelerate I can keep it from bucking. Any more and it starts. Its like its dropping spark. Soon as you get off the gas, right back down to a good idle.
I did the swap about 3 months ago. Belt was changed then too. Just plugged the 3.5 harness right into the 2.7 computer and it was running fine up until a cam sensor crapped out which was fixed with a parts store replacement, then I got a crank sensor code which ended up being the cam sensor again.
Everything seems perfect mechanically. It appears to just be an electrical gremelin or perhaps a fuel delivery issue.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145540
11/13/08 09:17 PM
11/13/08 09:17 PM
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Ansonia, CT
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More diagnosis.
It only does it when hot.
If I clear the codes and start it, its fine but as soon as I blip the throttle and get it to sputter, the CEL immediately comes on and it throws the P1391 intermittant crank/cam pos
signal.
It bucks and sputters when the throttle is applied in gear or just in park.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145541
11/13/08 11:45 PM
11/13/08 11:45 PM
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Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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On the cam sensor, there *SHOULD* have been a piece of paper over the end of the sensor. It's there to act as a spacer and you place the sensor up against the cam sprocket. Motor turns over and the sprocket wipes the paper off leaving the correct airgap.
At least that's the way it works for me on my OBDI Turbo III motors, I'd figure the newer sensors would be set up the same way. That might be what is causing your code, if the gap isn't right motor gets hot, gap shrinks and may be rubbing the sprocket. Or alternatively could have too much gap for whatever reason.
Whatever it is, if it's throwing a cam/crank sensor code the PCM doesn't like something it's seeing there.
ETA: You might want to put the old Mopar crank sensor back in to eliminate one variable while working with the cam sensor and see if that makes a difference.
Last edited by Scottmon; 11/13/08 11:53 PM.
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#145543
11/14/08 08:51 AM
11/14/08 08:51 AM
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Ansonia, CT
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Yup paper spacer was present and sensor was installed correctly.
I checked the supply voltage at the sensor. Cold when running well and hot when it was stumbling. Its supposed to be 8V but is reading 8.8V. Either way its doesn't change between the two scenarios.
I'm starting to wonder if there is another sensor that shares the same power and ground that might be failing when hot and making "noise" screwing up the position sensor signals.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Scottmon]
#145545
11/14/08 11:38 AM
11/14/08 11:38 AM
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St Charles MO
70Coronet500Vert
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Hey, since you are so helpful, stay tuned. I am probably pulling the heads on my 3.5 this weekend. Timing belt tensioner snapped and I am sure I have bent valves. Compression check tonight.
No matter how responsible he may seem, never give your gun to a monkey!
1970 Coronet Vert
1972 Charger
1974 Satellite Sebring Plus Sundance
2001 Ram 4x4
2002 Intrepid
2006 300C
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: 70Coronet500Vert]
#145546
11/14/08 02:05 PM
11/14/08 02:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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Might want to also check and make sure you don't have a cracked flexplate...timing will move around and freak out the crank sensor if it's busted.
ETA: I'd also double check the timing belt and make sure it didn't skip a tooth.
Last edited by Scottmon; 11/14/08 02:39 PM.
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Scottmon]
#145547
11/14/08 02:34 PM
11/14/08 02:34 PM
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It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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It's a dry heat
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Quote:
Might want to also check and make sure you don't have a cracked flexplate...timing will move around and freak out the crank sensor if it's busted.
Agreed, but a cracked flex plate is usually associated with some kind of noise on startup or rapid accel / decel
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: Jim L]
#145549
11/15/08 11:21 AM
11/15/08 11:21 AM
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Ansonia, CT
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I thought it might be the tone ring but like was said, it would be right away.
I'm going to fool around with it a little longer before I throw in the towel.
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145550
11/15/08 03:16 PM
11/15/08 03:16 PM
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I poked around some more. The problem is very repeatable. I had the problem and while it was hot, I ended up swapping camshaft position sensors with the old one (the one that would start fine but kill the motor when it warmed up).
The problem went away immediatle but of course the car ended up shutting down 10 mins later when it got hot.
Either I have poor luck with finding a quality sensor (one BW and the other Mopar) or there is something with the car killing sensors......
2017 Contusion Blue Challenger T/A 392 M6 "BLKNBLU"
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Re: 2000 300m 3.5L won't stay running
[Re: CJK440]
#145554
11/16/08 07:44 PM
11/16/08 07:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Louisville, KY.
Scottmon
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Quote:
I poked around some more. The problem is very repeatable. I had the problem and while it was hot, I ended up swapping camshaft position sensors with the old one (the one that would start fine but kill the motor when it warmed up).
The problem went away immediatle but of course the car ended up shutting down 10 mins later when it got hot.
Either I have poor luck with finding a quality sensor (one BW and the other Mopar) or there is something with the car killing sensors......
If it's repeatable it sounds as though you have a second bum sensor. Try another one, but make it Mopar. Still better than the rest. Might want to double check the PN on your original cam sensor to be certain the parts guy is giving you the right one.
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