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833 troubles Good news!
#1416832
04/08/13 04:11 PM
04/08/13 04:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Tried to get the car out this past weekend but it went downhill fast.
Here are I believe are the pertinent facts:
1. Small blk with Passon Alum 4 speed 6? years old, , 2000 trouble free miles, has sure grip, OEM tapered axles.
2. Car has seen no miles in 4 years
3. When car sits on jack stands, rear wheels and DS turn easy by hand when in neutral both ways, engine off.
4. Engine starts fine, pushing clutch in tranny goes into any gear fine.
5. When letting clutch out when in 1st gear on the jack stands, unless revs are brought up to say 2500rpm engine dies, and wheels still turn very hard/slow.
6. Pushing clutch in with trans still in gear and with wheels still turning, causes wheels to immediately to lock up.
7. Above is the same in 2nd but much harder to get wheels to turn, reverse the same, can't get wheels to turn without killing motor in 3rd or 4th.
8. I can get trans side cover shift levers into all normal? positions from below
Nothing indicates to me clutch/pressure is stuck.
Not sure if 8.75 could lock itself up. Everything goes south with trans in gear?
I'm at a loss, and am trying to eliminate as much as possible before yanking trans.
I have called Jamie and we are scratching our heads.
Any ideas?
Last edited by jcc; 04/10/13 11:02 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Pntastar69]
#1416834
04/08/13 04:32 PM
04/08/13 04:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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I would burn the clutch up before getting it out of the driveway. I put it on the stands to assist in troubleshooting, and see what was locking up.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416835
04/08/13 04:34 PM
04/08/13 04:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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The DS turns fine both ways in N so the 8&3/4 is not the culprit. #6 makes me think it is a clutch issue but that's speculation on my part since I am not a clutch/stick guy (904's forever). Here's a BTT & holler how it goes
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416838
04/08/13 04:55 PM
04/08/13 04:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:
It is a 742 Alum case.
I'd love to have that as it'd certainly reduce alot of unsprung weight in the stock car. I'd maybe take off the clutch cover & side cover again & see if anything abnormal is apparent & maybe haveing a helper work the pedal & turn the rear wheels by hand & you underneath would make something show up
Last edited by RapidRobert; 04/08/13 05:03 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416839
04/08/13 05:04 PM
04/08/13 05:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
rbstroker
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
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If you really think that the 8 3/4 is the issue, wouldn't pulling the driveshaft either confirm or deny?
This is the land of the free
because of the brave
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1416841
04/08/13 05:24 PM
04/08/13 05:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Pulling the DS is not that big of deal at this point, and it will definitely rule out the rear end, and I have few other options. Thanks
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416842
04/08/13 05:28 PM
04/08/13 05:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Holler what it ends up being
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Russ H.]
#1416844
04/08/13 06:04 PM
04/08/13 06:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Not stupid, and yes, nor seem to be bound up in any way, and wheels turn freely in the air. I'm hoping it is something stupid, but unfortunately I will have to come here and tell you guys, don't know which is worse? 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416847
04/08/13 06:25 PM
04/08/13 06:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 18,157
Mass
DAYCLONA
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 18,157
Mass
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Seen this happen to some cars that sit for awhile, everything seems fine when the vehicle is jack up, but once the wheels are on the ground and a resistance load is applied to the rear end the car goes no where, or it takes some serious RPM's to move it,...9 out of 10 times it's the rear end, drop the driveshaft, all 4 wheels on the ground you should be able to move the car forward and rearward by hand, if you can't, then it's the rear,...sure you can pull the chuck/axles, but what I've found that works best is to just pull the shaft, and slowly tow the car in any fashion as long as the rear wheels are on the ground, usually frees up the rear axle without any harm, last parts car I had recently had this issue...  mike
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: DAYCLONA]
#1416849
04/08/13 10:44 PM
04/08/13 10:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,554
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Posts: 10,554
Rittman Ohio
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Quote:
Seen this happen to some cars that sit for awhile, everything seems fine when the vehicle is jack up, but once the wheels are on the ground and a resistance load is applied to the rear end the car goes no where, or it takes some serious RPM's to move it,...9 out of 10 times it's the rear end, drop the driveshaft, all 4 wheels on the ground you should be able to move the car forward and rearward by hand, if you can't, then it's the rear,...sure you can pull the chuck/axles, but what I've found that works best is to just pull the shaft, and slowly tow the car in any fashion as long as the rear wheels are on the ground, usually frees up the rear axle without any harm, last parts car I had recently had this issue...
mike
 I have seen surface rust on the ring gear do that before
Gus 
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1416850
04/08/13 11:13 PM
04/08/13 11:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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First I'm working alone at this point, so my observations are limited.
I dropped the DS, seemed a normal amount of tranny fluid ran out, so its not dry. Started car without DS, put in 1st, let clutch out, no bog, no hesitation, had no way to verify trans output rotation, was worried about sticking a spare unsecured yoke and it spitting out, and I would have a hard time viewing it anyway by myself. I can get helper tomorrow if anyone thinks seeing it rotate is needed at this point.
While DS is out, rear end yoke turns nice both ways, feels to be normal, has some play, more then what I would like, but it Is what i have felt in past on other 8.75. Reinstalled DS and big bog in 1st gear and hardly can get wheels to turn in the air.
So unless the 833 will only bind up with a load or with a yoke, and I need 833 experts to advise on this possibility, it would then point to something in the rear. The 8.75 was built by a well known local shop that assembled my new R&P, rebuilt the SG, with all new parts in the Alum carrier. Could an adjuster nut backed out, and ring shifts and locks under load, or a SG bolt back out or ring bolt? I know that's all guessing and pulling the rear end is only way to find out for sure, just want to check off 833 first.
Thanks guys.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Russ H.]
#1416853
04/09/13 09:25 AM
04/09/13 09:25 AM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
rbstroker
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,139
West Tennessee
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After re-reading your original lockup symptoms, it appears that they have disappeared after pulling the driveshaft. That sure tells me that the third member and/or the shaft is where I'd be focussing my efforts.
This is the land of the free
because of the brave
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416857
04/09/13 10:15 AM
04/09/13 10:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
68LAR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
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Quote:
Tried to get the car out this past weekend but it went downhill fast.
Here are I believe are the pertinent facts:
1. Small blk with Passon Alum 4 speed 6? years old, , 2000 trouble free miles, has sure grip, OEM tapered axles.
2. Car has seen no miles in 4 years
3. When car sits on jack stands, rear wheels and DS turn easy by hand when in neutral both ways, engine off.
4. Engine starts fine, pushing clutch in tranny goes into any gear fine.
5. When letting clutch out when in 1st gear on the jack stands, unless revs are brought up to say 2500rpm engine dies, and wheels still turn very hard/slow.
6. Pushing clutch in with trans still in gear and with wheels still turning, causes wheels to immediately to lock up.
7. Above is the same in 2nd but much harder to get wheels to turn, reverse the same, can't get wheels to turn without killing motor in 3rd or 4th.
8. I can get trans side cover shift levers into all normal? positions from below
Nothing indicates to me clutch/pressure is stuck.
Not sure if 8.75 could lock itself up. Everything goes south with trans in gear?
I'm at a loss, and am trying to eliminate as much as possible before yanking trans.
I have called Jamie and we are scratching our heads.
Any ideas?
After re-reading this again and again, unless I'm still missing something, it seems to me that one of your main drive gears in the trans is frozen to the output shaft.
With the car on jack stands and the drive shaft out, put the trans in neutral. Go under the car and see if you can turn the output shaft of the trans. 
4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: 68LAR]
#1416858
04/09/13 03:13 PM
04/09/13 03:13 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Thanks again guys for all your help. 1. Carrier is MP alum 742 2. When problem first was noticed wheels were all on the ground, when raised, the rear jack stands are under the housing near the leafs, ie not hanging, but at ride height. 3. I will try tonight with a helper to hand turn a spare yoke with clutch depressed. 4. yoke bottoming does not seem likely 5. Original yoke slipped out when dropping DS with no issues 6. I don't know enough about 833 internals to reply on whether a gear has frozen to a shaft. We will try again tonight. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: 68LAR]
#1416860
04/09/13 04:19 PM
04/09/13 04:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,368
Wheatfield, NY
Cuda340
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,368
Wheatfield, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
I will try tonight with a helper to hand turn a spare yoke with clutch depressed.
This will prove nothing. Try turning the output shaft with the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal engaged (foot off of pedal). If it doesn't turn or is hard turning, then one of the main drive gears is too tight of the output shaft. 
Either that or the cluster gear is froze onto the shaft...
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Cuda340]
#1416861
04/09/13 11:09 PM
04/09/13 11:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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So tonight i have a helper: 1. I verified the same problem as discussed before, no differences. 2. I pulled DS, rear yoke turns fine, wheels spin freely car on jack stands on housing. 3. Engine off in nuetral tranny clutch out No DS, tranny yoke spins free 4. Engine off in 1st, No DS, clutch depressed, tranny yoke spins free 5. Engine running, no DS, letting clutch out in 1st, no bog, tranny yoke spins free, and stops pretty quick when depressing clutch Unless tranny needs a load to lock up, the above points to the rear end? I might take a day off on this. Could a brake somehow decide to always drag under load? The rear end when I let out the clutch looks kinda of "grabby" before its starts to turn and then engine dies unless revs are way up. It has tapered axles and maybe I should pull the drums, to see if a mud dapper wasp made a nest, or something. Not sure which is more work or more certain, install another complete housing/3rd member w/brakes I have laying around and test, or yank the drums and then the carrier and keep hunting the problem. Regardless the Alum 742 has to go back in eventually. Jamie if you see this latest post let me know, I will be contacting you regardless when something is known for certain. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416862
04/10/13 03:11 AM
04/10/13 03:11 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Do you have another pumpkin you could toss in, that's what I'd do
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Russ H.]
#1416864
04/10/13 10:30 AM
04/10/13 10:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 371
Russ H.
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 371
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Quote:
Maybe a stupid question but is your emergency brake fully released??
The way I see it, If all was well when last used and lube was not drained, Manual transmissions and 3rd members normally do not deteriorate from sitting. My money is still on something in the brake system. Try running it with the rear drums removed.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: 68LAR]
#1416874
04/10/13 04:20 PM
04/10/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Quote:
Quote:
Unless tranny needs a load to lock up, the above points to the rear end?
Not really.... What happens if you put the transmission in 2nd or 3rd gear with no DS, engine running, clutch out?
Just trying to help. Example: If 1st gear is the "tight" gear on the main shaft, then it would function properly. If you put the trans. in another gear, then it would act like it is in two gears at the same time and you would have the symptoms/problems you describe. 
In mt test last night I did not try any other gears, as I was concerned about tans yoke with no DS spitting out, however it did not move and I will try in 2 and 3rd tonight since that is a quick test.
Thanks
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: DoctorDiff]
#1416877
04/10/13 04:26 PM
04/10/13 04:26 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Quote:
Do you have "tapered axles" or "tapered bearings" in the rear?
Sure-grips require special length tapered (keyed) axles.
In other words, if you swapped a sure-grip into a pre '65 rear originally equipped with an open differential, you will have major problems.
Supposedly axle lengths were standardized in 1964, but I have never been able to confirm that.
Unfortunately this was addressed 6? years ago, I thought everything measured up fine, it does have 2k miles on it, but i am not sure how a screw up would finally show up, so this definitely needs looking at when coming apart.
To answer your question, they are tapered axles with OEM tapered bearings.
Thanks
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: 70mopes]
#1416879
04/10/13 04:29 PM
04/10/13 04:29 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Quote:
On the first go round, were the drums hot after the sticking wheels incident? It would seem that just prior to putting car in gear with it up in the air, you would depress the brake pedal to ensure that a clean shift could occur. At that point, if your shoes are not returning properly, you would see the problem you describe. My 68 Charger did that and it was the most confounding thing. I would apply the brakes and they would stick. It would bleed down but it tooks a few minutes before the shoes would return and the wheels turned freely. I would guess it is something like that.
Spinning the wheels was so hard on the clutch, I don't think it had time to get drums hot, although they never smelled and I didn't touch them see ig any heat was generated, i should have and will next time.
Thanks
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: 68LAR]
#1416880
04/10/13 04:33 PM
04/10/13 04:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Quote:
Quote:
JCC please make some progress with this
ALL suggestions when diagnosed properly should eventually lead to the problem. After eliminating, what's left is the problem. Not to be sarcastic or insulting, but do you know how transmissions, rear differentials and brakes work? I mean really work? What turns, what's engaged, etc? Just trying to help....
Not sarcastic one bit, In my own mind I'm only above average, which means maybe at least 49% are smarter then me, Anyway Brakes and diff I can troubleshoot and find an issue, tranny's internally are not something at this time in my life, I need to learn about, with all my other irons in the fire.
Thanks
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416882
04/10/13 04:45 PM
04/10/13 04:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
68LAR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
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Quote:
Not sarcastic one bit, In my own mind I'm only above average, which means maybe at least 49% are smarter then me, Anyway Brakes and diff I can troubleshoot and find an issue, tranny's internally are not something at this time in my life, I need to learn about, with all my other irons in the fire.
Thanks
Thank you. We're here to help. All possibilities have been expressed. I choose the transmission possibility, although I'm pretty good with everything. Just do the suggested tries and post the results. We'll help you figure out the problem if you can't on your own.
4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: Paul_Fancsali]
#1416884
04/10/13 11:01 PM
04/10/13 11:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch  Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends. On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right? I will followup with more brake info as I get into it. Thanks again Moparts.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: jcc]
#1416888
04/11/13 11:48 AM
04/11/13 11:48 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch
Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends.
On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right?
I will followup with more brake info as I get into it.
Thanks again Moparts.
Has the car been sitting all this time with the E brake engaged ? If so it might be the rear cables are frozen.
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Re: 833 troubles
[Re: JohnRR]
#1416889
04/11/13 11:58 AM
04/11/13 11:58 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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OP
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Quote:
Quote:
Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch
Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends.
On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right?
I will followup with more brake info as I get into it.
Thanks again Moparts.
Has the car been sitting all this time with the E brake engaged ? If so it might be the rear cables are frozen.
I don't remember if E brake was on while it sat, but I did check both "cables" and they are slack, and remember, the rear wheels turn easy when in neutral and car is lifted. Should be interesting to see What is inside.
On a somewhat humorous note that is related to "whats up with kids...", I had a 30 yr old male help me towards the end of this saga, and I asked him sit in drivers seat and push the clutch in while I hand turned the wheels, and just to be 100% certain, I said the "left pedal", I watched however and his foot headed for the E brake. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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I had a 1962 Plymouth Fury with the stock tapered axles, I swapped the third member, put the axles back in and thought I had the axle bearing preload set correctly, drove it around the block and then into town, ended up I didn't have the axle bearings seated all the way into the housing, driving around corners seated them 
