833 troubles Good news!

Posted By: jcc

833 troubles Good news! - 04/08/13 08:11 PM

Tried to get the car out this past weekend but it went downhill fast.

Here are I believe are the pertinent facts:

1. Small blk with Passon Alum 4 speed 6? years old, , 2000 trouble free miles, has sure grip, OEM tapered axles.
2. Car has seen no miles in 4 years
3. When car sits on jack stands, rear wheels and DS turn easy by hand when in neutral both ways, engine off.
4. Engine starts fine, pushing clutch in tranny goes into any gear fine.
5. When letting clutch out when in 1st gear on the jack stands, unless revs are brought up to say 2500rpm engine dies, and wheels still turn very hard/slow.
6. Pushing clutch in with trans still in gear and with wheels still turning, causes wheels to immediately to lock up.
7. Above is the same in 2nd but much harder to get wheels to turn, reverse the same, can't get wheels to turn without killing motor in 3rd or 4th.
8. I can get trans side cover shift levers into all normal? positions from below

Nothing indicates to me clutch/pressure is stuck.
Not sure if 8.75 could lock itself up. Everything goes south with trans in gear?

I'm at a loss, and am trying to eliminate as much as possible before yanking trans.

I have called Jamie and we are scratching our heads.

Any ideas?

Posted By: Pntastar69

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:30 PM

Take it for a ride instead of on the stands.

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:32 PM

I would burn the clutch up before getting it out of the driveway. I put it on the stands to assist in troubleshooting, and see what was locking up.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:34 PM

The DS turns fine both ways in N so the 8&3/4 is not the culprit. #6 makes me think it is a clutch issue but that's speculation on my part since I am not a clutch/stick guy (904's forever). Here's a BTT & holler how it goes

Posted By: Cuda340

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:34 PM

Is the shifter linkage adjusted properly? Is it stuck between reverse and first? Weird....

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:42 PM

Quote:

The DS turns fine both ways in N so the 8&3/4 is not the culprit. #6 makes me think it is a clutch issue but that's speculation on my part since I am not a clutch/stick guy (904's forever). Here's a BTT & holler how it goes

I agree, my concern about the 8.75 was maybe a loose pinion nut and the pinion was driving into something under power under load, but reverse is same and Jamie thought I hear a lot of suspicious noise if the rear end was the issue. It is a 742 Alum case.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 08:55 PM

Quote:

It is a 742 Alum case.

I'd love to have that as it'd certainly reduce alot of unsprung weight in the stock car. I'd maybe take off the clutch cover & side cover again & see if anything abnormal is apparent & maybe haveing a helper work the pedal & turn the rear wheels by hand & you underneath would make something show up

Posted By: rbstroker

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 09:04 PM

If you really think that the 8 3/4 is the issue, wouldn't pulling the driveshaft either confirm or deny?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 09:13 PM

Quote:

If you really think that the 8 3/4 is the issue, wouldn't pulling the driveshaft either confirm or deny?

Yes it would & sure wouldn't hurt to k.i.s.s. & check to be sure when you go to pull the shaft to get the trans out. I'd put a plastic bag over the extension housing to contain the lube & start it up & retry it. You'll have your answer in seconds & you might get REAL lucky & find out that it's the pumpkin

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 09:24 PM

Pulling the DS is not that big of deal at this point, and it will definitely rule out the rear end, and I have few other options. Thanks

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 09:28 PM

Holler what it ends up being

Posted By: Russ H.

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 10:00 PM

Maybe a stupid question but is your emergency brake fully released??

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 10:04 PM

Not stupid, and yes, nor seem to be bound up in any way, and wheels turn freely in the air.

I'm hoping it is something stupid, but unfortunately I will have to come here and tell you guys, don't know which is worse?

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 10:12 PM

Quote:

I'm hoping it is something stupid, but unfortunately I will have to come here and tell you guys, don't know which is worse?

If you end up not having to pull the trans (or the pumpkin) you'll get over it real fast

Posted By: Russ H.

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 10:17 PM

Will the wheels turn freely with the transmission in gear and clutch depressed?

Posted By: DAYCLONA

Re: 833 troubles - 04/08/13 10:25 PM

Seen this happen to some cars that sit for awhile, everything seems fine when the vehicle is jack up, but once the wheels are on the ground and a resistance load is applied to the rear end the car goes no where, or it takes some serious RPM's to move it,...9 out of 10 times it's the rear end, drop the driveshaft, all 4 wheels on the ground you should be able to move the car forward and rearward by hand, if you can't, then it's the rear,...sure you can pull the chuck/axles, but what I've found that works best is to just pull the shaft, and slowly tow the car in any fashion as long as the rear wheels are on the ground, usually frees up the rear axle without any harm, last parts car I had recently had this issue...

mike

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 01:27 AM

Quote:

Will the wheels turn freely with the transmission in gear and clutch depressed?

No, i'm on the way home to drop the DS, stay tuned.

Posted By: fourgearsavoy

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 02:44 AM

Quote:

Seen this happen to some cars that sit for awhile, everything seems fine when the vehicle is jack up, but once the wheels are on the ground and a resistance load is applied to the rear end the car goes no where, or it takes some serious RPM's to move it,...9 out of 10 times it's the rear end, drop the driveshaft, all 4 wheels on the ground you should be able to move the car forward and rearward by hand, if you can't, then it's the rear,...sure you can pull the chuck/axles, but what I've found that works best is to just pull the shaft, and slowly tow the car in any fashion as long as the rear wheels are on the ground, usually frees up the rear axle without any harm, last parts car I had recently had this issue...

mike

I have seen surface rust on the ring gear do that before

Gus

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 03:13 AM

First I'm working alone at this point, so my observations are limited.

I dropped the DS, seemed a normal amount of tranny fluid ran out, so its not dry. Started car without DS, put in 1st, let clutch out, no bog, no hesitation, had no way to verify trans output rotation, was worried about sticking a spare unsecured yoke and it spitting out, and I would have a hard time viewing it anyway by myself. I can get helper tomorrow if anyone thinks seeing it rotate is needed at this point.

While DS is out, rear end yoke turns nice both ways, feels to be normal, has some play, more then what I would like, but it Is what i have felt in past on other 8.75. Reinstalled DS and big bog in 1st gear and hardly can get wheels to turn in the air.

So unless the 833 will only bind up with a load or with a yoke, and I need 833 experts to advise on this possibility, it would then point to something in the rear. The 8.75 was built by a well known local shop that assembled my new R&P, rebuilt the SG, with all new parts in the Alum carrier. Could an adjuster nut backed out, and ring shifts and locks under load, or a SG bolt back out or ring bolt? I know that's all guessing and pulling the rear end is only way to find out for sure, just want to check off 833 first.

Thanks guys.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 03:21 AM

Quote:

So unless the 833 will only bind up with a load or with a yoke,

The trans I'm thinking

Posted By: Russ H.

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 12:48 PM

Where are your jack stands placed? Are they supporting the rear axle?

Posted By: rbstroker

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 01:25 PM

After re-reading your original lockup symptoms, it appears that they have disappeared after pulling the driveshaft. That sure tells me that the third member and/or the shaft is where I'd be focussing my efforts.

Posted By: rbstroker

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 01:27 PM

You say Aluminum carrier?

Posted By: LAR_414

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 01:36 PM

Could the slip yoke be pushing against the output shaft (bottoming out)? with the wheels hanging?

Support the rear with the weight of the car (jack stands under the axle tubes (not the frame).

Posted By: JamiePasson

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 02:11 PM

John,
I spent a fair amount of time last night reflecting on this situation. I am coming up blank. If it was the trans, it would seem to me that it would still do it even with the driveshaft off it. The other possibility would be the yoke in the rear bushing, BUT you would have really struggled getting the yoke out of the trans. As I said on the phone, even thought the trans is way out of warranty, I will be happy to look at it for you to try to determine if there is an issue in it. Keep me posted.
Thanks,
Jamie

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 02:15 PM

Quote:

Tried to get the car out this past weekend but it went downhill fast.

Here are I believe are the pertinent facts:

1. Small blk with Passon Alum 4 speed 6? years old, , 2000 trouble free miles, has sure grip, OEM tapered axles.
2. Car has seen no miles in 4 years
3. When car sits on jack stands, rear wheels and DS turn easy by hand when in neutral both ways, engine off.
4. Engine starts fine, pushing clutch in tranny goes into any gear fine.
5. When letting clutch out when in 1st gear on the jack stands, unless revs are brought up to say 2500rpm engine dies, and wheels still turn very hard/slow.
6. Pushing clutch in with trans still in gear and with wheels still turning, causes wheels to immediately to lock up.
7. Above is the same in 2nd but much harder to get wheels to turn, reverse the same, can't get wheels to turn without killing motor in 3rd or 4th.
8. I can get trans side cover shift levers into all normal? positions from below

Nothing indicates to me clutch/pressure is stuck.
Not sure if 8.75 could lock itself up. Everything goes south with trans in gear?

I'm at a loss, and am trying to eliminate as much as possible before yanking trans.

I have called Jamie and we are scratching our heads.

Any ideas?

After re-reading this again and again, unless I'm still missing something, it seems to me that one of your main drive gears in the trans is frozen to the output shaft.
With the car on jack stands and the drive shaft out, put the trans in neutral. Go under the car and see if you can turn the output shaft of the trans.

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 07:13 PM

Thanks again guys for all your help.

1. Carrier is MP alum 742
2. When problem first was noticed wheels were all on the ground, when raised, the rear jack stands are under the housing near the leafs, ie not hanging, but at ride height.
3. I will try tonight with a helper to hand turn a spare yoke with clutch depressed.
4. yoke bottoming does not seem likely
5. Original yoke slipped out when dropping DS with no issues
6. I don't know enough about 833 internals to reply on whether a gear has frozen to a shaft.

We will try again tonight.

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 08:11 PM

Quote:

I will try tonight with a helper to hand turn a spare yoke with clutch depressed.

This will prove nothing. Try turning the output shaft with the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal engaged (foot off of pedal). If it doesn't turn or is hard turning, then one of the main drive gears is too tight of the output shaft.

Posted By: Cuda340

Re: 833 troubles - 04/09/13 08:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I will try tonight with a helper to hand turn a spare yoke with clutch depressed.

This will prove nothing. Try turning the output shaft with the transmission in neutral and the clutch pedal engaged (foot off of pedal). If it doesn't turn or is hard turning, then one of the main drive gears is too tight of the output shaft.

Either that or the cluster gear is froze onto the shaft...

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 03:09 AM

So tonight i have a helper:

1. I verified the same problem as discussed before, no differences.
2. I pulled DS, rear yoke turns fine, wheels spin freely car on jack stands on housing.
3. Engine off in nuetral tranny clutch out No DS, tranny yoke spins free
4. Engine off in 1st, No DS, clutch depressed, tranny yoke spins free
5. Engine running, no DS, letting clutch out in 1st, no bog, tranny yoke spins free, and stops pretty quick when depressing clutch

Unless tranny needs a load to lock up, the above points to the rear end?

I might take a day off on this. Could a brake somehow decide to always drag under load? The rear end when I let out the clutch looks kinda of "grabby" before its starts to turn and then engine dies unless revs are way up. It has tapered axles and maybe I should pull the drums, to see if a mud dapper wasp made a nest, or something. Not sure which is more work or more certain, install another complete housing/3rd member w/brakes I have laying around and test, or yank the drums and then the carrier and keep hunting the problem. Regardless the Alum 742 has to go back in eventually.

Jamie if you see this latest post let me know, I will be contacting you regardless when something is known for certain.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 07:11 AM

Do you have another pumpkin you could toss in, that's what I'd do

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 01:58 PM

Quote:

Unless tranny needs a load to lock up, the above points to the rear end?

Not really.... What happens if you put the transmission in 2nd or 3rd gear with no DS, engine running, clutch out?
Just trying to help.

Example: If 1st gear is the "tight" gear on the main shaft, then it would function properly. If you put the trans. in another gear, then it would act like it is in two gears at the same time and you would have the symptoms/problems you describe.

Posted By: Russ H.

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 02:30 PM

Quote:

Maybe a stupid question but is your emergency brake fully released??

The way I see it, If all was well when last used and lube was not drained, Manual transmissions and 3rd members normally do not deteriorate from sitting. My money is still on something in the brake system. Try running it with the rear drums removed.

Posted By: dan9

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 03:12 PM

That's what I'm thinking too. Sounds like it is stuck in 2 gears.

Posted By: dan9

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 03:16 PM

Maybe just the shift linkage. I'd disconnect them and move the levers by hand and try it.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 03:26 PM

JCC please make some progress with this

Posted By: DoctorDiff

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 04:15 PM

Do you have "tapered axles" or "tapered bearings" in the rear?

Sure-grips require special length tapered (keyed) axles.

In other words, if you swapped a sure-grip into a pre '65 rear originally equipped with an open differential, you will have major problems.

Supposedly axle lengths were standardized in 1964, but I have never been able to confirm that.

Posted By: mopfried

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 04:38 PM

If you run with the rear drums removed be sure and not hit the brake petal.

Posted By: 70mopes

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 05:50 PM

On the first go round, were the drums hot after the sticking wheels incident? It would seem that just prior to putting car in gear with it up in the air, you would depress the brake pedal to ensure that a clean shift could occur. At that point, if your shoes are not returning properly, you would see the problem you describe. My 68 Charger did that and it was the most confounding thing. I would apply the brakes and they would stick. It would bleed down but it tooks a few minutes before the shoes would return and the wheels turned freely. I would guess it is something like that.

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 07:02 PM

Quote:

JCC please make some progress with this

ALL suggestions when diagnosed properly should eventually lead to the problem. After eliminating, what's left is the problem. Not to be sarcastic or insulting, but do you know how transmissions, rear differentials and brakes work? I mean really work? What turns, what's engaged, etc? Just trying to help....

Posted By: Bill MeLater

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 07:42 PM

I'd bet Ya a dollar it's the brakes...

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:18 PM

Quote:

Do you have another pumpkin you could toss in, that's what I'd do

Yes I do, and that is definitely on the table, Thanks.

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:20 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Unless tranny needs a load to lock up, the above points to the rear end?

Not really.... What happens if you put the transmission in 2nd or 3rd gear with no DS, engine running, clutch out?
Just trying to help. Example: If 1st gear is the "tight" gear on the main shaft, then it would function properly. If you put the trans. in another gear, then it would act like it is in two gears at the same time and you would have the symptoms/problems you describe.

In mt test last night I did not try any other gears, as I was concerned about tans yoke with no DS spitting out, however it did not move and I will try in 2 and 3rd tonight since that is a quick test.

Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Maybe a stupid question but is your emergency brake fully released??

The way I see it, If all was well when last used and lube was not drained, Manual transmissions and 3rd members normally do not deteriorate from sitting. My money is still on something in the brake system. Try running it with the rear drums removed.

Good idea, I will before pulling pumpkin, if it comes to that.

Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:22 PM

Quote:

Maybe just the shift linkage. I'd disconnect them and move the levers by hand and try it.

I will try this at some point, Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:26 PM

Quote:

Do you have "tapered axles" or "tapered bearings" in the rear?

Sure-grips require special length tapered (keyed) axles.

In other words, if you swapped a sure-grip into a pre '65 rear originally equipped with an open differential, you will have major problems.

Supposedly axle lengths were standardized in 1964, but I have never been able to confirm that.

Unfortunately this was addressed 6? years ago, I thought everything measured up fine, it does have 2k miles on it, but i am not sure how a screw up would finally show up, so this definitely needs looking at when coming apart.

To answer your question, they are tapered axles with OEM tapered bearings.

Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:27 PM

Quote:

If you run with the rear drums removed be sure and not hit the brake petal.

, thanks, please feel free to remind again

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:29 PM

Quote:

On the first go round, were the drums hot after the sticking wheels incident? It would seem that just prior to putting car in gear with it up in the air, you would depress the brake pedal to ensure that a clean shift could occur. At that point, if your shoes are not returning properly, you would see the problem you describe. My 68 Charger did that and it was the most confounding thing. I would apply the brakes and they would stick. It would bleed down but it tooks a few minutes before the shoes would return and the wheels turned freely. I would guess it is something like that.

Spinning the wheels was so hard on the clutch, I don't think it had time to get drums hot, although they never smelled and I didn't touch them see ig any heat was generated, i should have and will next time.

Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

JCC please make some progress with this

ALL suggestions when diagnosed properly should eventually lead to the problem. After eliminating, what's left is the problem. Not to be sarcastic or insulting, but do you know how transmissions, rear differentials and brakes work? I mean really work? What turns, what's engaged, etc? Just trying to help....

Not sarcastic one bit, In my own mind I'm only above average, which means maybe at least 49% are smarter then me, Anyway Brakes and diff I can troubleshoot and find an issue, tranny's internally are not something at this time in my life, I need to learn about, with all my other irons in the fire.

Thanks

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:35 PM

Quote:

I'd bet Ya a dollar it's the brakes...

At this point I'd gladly get in the car and drive that dollar to your house, when I get it running

Thanks

Posted By: 68LAR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 08:45 PM

Quote:

Not sarcastic one bit, In my own mind I'm only above average, which means maybe at least 49% are smarter then me, Anyway Brakes and diff I can troubleshoot and find an issue, tranny's internally are not something at this time in my life, I need to learn about, with all my other irons in the fire.

Thanks

Thank you. We're here to help. All possibilities have been expressed. I choose the transmission possibility, although I'm pretty good with everything. Just do the suggested tries and post the results. We'll help you figure out the problem if you can't on your own.

Posted By: Paul_Fancsali

Re: 833 troubles - 04/10/13 09:38 PM

Jack car up as high as you can on floor jack leave car in gear Drop the car hard hopefully it will work just had to do that on a stick car that was sitting too long and too damp Works fine now

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 03:01 AM

Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch

Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends.

On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right?

I will followup with more brake info as I get into it.

Thanks again Moparts.

Posted By: Challenger 1

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 03:19 AM

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 03:29 AM

I never would have guessed that it would have been the brakes & that's sure better news than the trans or pumpkin. Hope the clutch is OK

Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 07:28 AM

Is it very damp where you live? Brakes and corrosion

I had a 1962 Plymouth Fury with the stock tapered axles, I swapped the third member, put the axles back in and thought I had the axle bearing preload set correctly, drove it around the block and then into town, ended up I didn't have the axle bearings seated all the way into the housing, driving around corners seated them

I had to add shims to get it corrected, I hate them early tapered axle cars

Posted By: JohnRR

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 03:48 PM

Quote:

Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch

Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends.

On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right?

I will followup with more brake info as I get into it.

Thanks again Moparts.

Has the car been sitting all this time with the E brake engaged ? If so it might be the rear cables are frozen.

Posted By: jcc

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 03:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Good news. I got home tonight, ran car w/O DS thru all the cars no difference, did fine, reinstalled Ds, still spins free in neutral, engine off. Rear wheels still bog the engine and lock up immediately when pushing clutch in. So I rev pretty high, dump the clutch and keep the power on for 15? secs, then feel both rear drums, and they are hot. I don't know why yet, but with everyone's help, I think we know where the problem is and hopefully will soon fine out why. I might also have to check out a new clutch

Also may move up my plans for rear discs and dump the tapered axles. it never ends.

On to the gushy stuff, I want to sincerely thank everyone for all the help and guidance and refraining my what goofball would have such a problem. I have seen others have problems and many came to the aid, this was my first time and it was nice with you having my back. I hope i get the chance to do the same. And I owe somebody a dollar, right?

I will followup with more brake info as I get into it.

Thanks again Moparts.

Has the car been sitting all this time with the E brake engaged ? If so it might be the rear cables are frozen.

I don't remember if E brake was on while it sat, but I did check both "cables" and they are slack, and remember, the rear wheels turn easy when in neutral and car is lifted. Should be interesting to see What is inside.

On a somewhat humorous note that is related to "whats up with kids...", I had a 30 yr old male help me towards the end of this saga, and I asked him sit in drivers seat and push the clutch in while I hand turned the wheels, and just to be 100% certain, I said the "left pedal", I watched however and his foot headed for the E brake.

Posted By: RapidRobert

Re: 833 troubles - 04/11/13 05:07 PM

Quote:

I said the "left pedal", I watched however and his foot headed for the E brake.

The way your lucks runnin I cant wait to find out what's up with the brakes