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Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
#139640
10/21/08 04:08 PM
10/21/08 04:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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I apologize if this subject has been covered many times before.
I searched the tech archives and did not find the answer to my questions.
Currently, I have a very high compression, (205-210lbs cranking on the starter) 3.51 stroke 340, that requires at least 50% race fuel. It has become less than pratical, especially if I want to drive it anwhere beyond a 1/2 tank. This is a street toy.
I have a disassembled, standard bore 360 that is begging me to do something with it. Of course, I don't want to sacrifice power, so I have been thinking about the 4 inch stroker crank.
I have a nice set of J heads, and will probably stick with them.
Can someone give me some advice on pistons and build for this 360? I have never messed with an externally balanced motor before.
Thanks in advance for your help! If there is a link to where this has been covered, I would appreciate that as well.
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: furious]
#139641
10/21/08 04:19 PM
10/21/08 04:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,559
Eagle, Idaho
Neil
The Doctor is in.
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The Doctor is in.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,559
Eagle, Idaho
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Russ (aka plumcrazy) put this list together a while ago. http://www.mopar1.us/stroker.htmlYou will need to find a piston that will give you the compression ratio you want with the heads you plan on using. The 4" cranks can be balanced internally or externally. External requires using the b&m flexplate, a weighted balancer, and drilling some holes in the crank. Internal balancing requires a neutral flexplate and balancer and adding mallory metal to the crank throws. Internal is the more expensive of the two.
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: dgc333]
#139647
10/22/08 11:36 AM
10/22/08 11:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Quote:
FWIW, I built a 360 with magnum heads, zero deck flat top pistons and a 224/230 @0.050 cam which is 10.6:1 compression and has 180-190 psi cranking pressure.
I run this engine on 89 octane and in a pinch can run 87 if I am careful. The key is the tight quench of the flat top pistons and closed chamber heads.
If you crank the numbers through Camquest it should be 410 HP. I figure its around 370 HP based on 102 mph trap speeds in the 1/4.
Sometimes I feel like the world has passed this old fart by.
I have been wondering how these new cars (especially my new Challenger) are getting by with these high compression ratios, and crap gas.
So you are saying it is because of the elimination of the quench area? Maybe just changing heads to Magnums?
I already have what I consider killer (harlan sharp big $) rocker arm system, intake and TTI polished coated headers.
I would like to stick with all of that. I know the rockers won't work, the intake would need redrilled, but I think the headers will work.
This may be the best answer though, I need to explore it.
It sure seems like that would bump my compression up even more though.
See, I bought the MP Wiseco pistons for the 3.45 stroke crank and put them with the 3.51 stroke crank. The deal was just too good to pass up, and it seems to really like it with the right fuel. 
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: furious]
#139649
10/22/08 03:25 PM
10/22/08 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
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The "practical answer" is that for what you pay to build a pump gas motor, the cost involved there will likely pay for years of the "extra fuel" that you currently use.
I didnt hear you mention you werent happy with your current performance, so save your money, pay the extra fuel bill.
Its unlikely(as you said it was a toy)that you drive it thousands of miles a year anyhow.
Even if the extra fuel is 300 dollars a year, thats probably 7-10 years worth of driving you will enjoy before your "project motor" ever sips one penny of pump gas.(three hundred a year i probabaly even a high end guess, probably lower)
Just something to think about.
I am kinda biased i guess, most guys that have what i consider to be high performance cars(like my 9 sec Duster)dont drive them a ton anyway.
I cant see spending all that money on a pump gas motor(unless it is the EXCEPTION, and is indeed driven thousands of miles each year)to sacrifice performance when a higher compression motor offers all the benefits EXCEPT cheap fuel.
gas around me here is 3 bucks a gallon for premium, and 5.29 for 110 race gas.
That 2 bucks a gallon difference is minute in the big scheme of things if you compare performance, and only drive maybe a couple of thousand miles a year.
Last edited by B3422W5; 10/22/08 03:37 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: B3422W5]
#139650
10/22/08 03:59 PM
10/22/08 03:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Those are great points B3422W5. But, my real issue, I do want to be able to drive farther than 60 miles away, and be able to buy some fuel to get home if I do. Performance is not a complaint with this motor, it is a lot of fun. Your post is exactly why I built the motor the way I did, and gave my Dad the mostly stock, fresh 340 I had built for the car previously. The other issue, my favorite part in this hobby, is building motors. I truly enjoy it. Having that 360 block setting there, when I have not participated in the 4 inch crank availability, is knawing at me. 
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: furious]
#139651
10/22/08 04:06 PM
10/22/08 04:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
B3422W5
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,711
Portage,michigan
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Quote:
Those are great points B3422W5. But, my real issue, I do want to be able to drive farther than 60 miles away, and be able to buy some fuel to get home if I do. Performance is not a complaint with this motor, it is a lot of fun.
Your post is exactly why I built the motor the way I did, and gave my Dad the mostly stock, fresh 340 I had built for the car previously.
The other issue, my favorite part in this hobby, is building motors. I truly enjoy it. Having that 360 block setting there, when I have not participated in the 4 inch crank availability, is knawing at me.
You sound like a guy i would hit it off with perfectly if we ever met 
(a little crazy, a little sane, a lot of fun )
Last edited by B3422W5; 10/22/08 04:07 PM.
69 Dart GTS A4 Silver All steel, flat factory hood, 3360race weight
418 BPE factory replacement headed stroker, 565 lift solid cam
Best so far, 10.40 @127 1/4
1.41 best 60 foot
6.60 at 103.90 1/8
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: furious]
#139653
10/22/08 04:38 PM
10/22/08 04:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
dgc333
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 1,396
Mass
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Quote:
Quote:
FWIW, I built a 360 with magnum heads, zero deck flat top pistons and a 224/230 @0.050 cam which is 10.6:1 compression and has 180-190 psi cranking pressure.
I run this engine on 89 octane and in a pinch can run 87 if I am careful. The key is the tight quench of the flat top pistons and closed chamber heads.
If you crank the numbers through Camquest it should be 410 HP. I figure its around 370 HP based on 102 mph trap speeds in the 1/4.
Sometimes I feel like the world has passed this old fart by.
I have been wondering how these new cars (especially my new Challenger) are getting by with these high compression ratios, and crap gas.
So you are saying it is because of the elimination of the quench area? Maybe just changing heads to Magnums?
Not the elimination of the quench, I have an ideal quench. Flat Top piston coming very close (0.039") to the flat closed area of the chamber. As the piston approaches TDC the fuel/air in the closed area is squeezed at high velocity towards the plug. This creates a lot of turbulence which makes the engine very detonation resistance and reduces the amount of timing needed for max power.
You can use a pop-up piston with an open chamber but unless the piston matches the profile of the chamber closely it is less than ideal.
Magnum heads typically have around 64cc chambers. They use a pedastel mounted rocker system so the orlder shaft rockers don't work. Studs and guide plates are available to allow the use of sb Chevey roller rockers. They also require the use of hollow push rods and lifters that provide push rod oiling for the rockers. The intake also uses vertical mounting bolts so you need either a magnum specific intake or have the heads redrilled to accept LA style mounting.
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: B3422W5]
#139654
10/22/08 04:59 PM
10/22/08 04:59 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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That's why I kind of like the E85 deal. Race fuel octane at below regular fuel prices. http://e85prices.com/illinois.htmlBut like I said earlier the biggest problem is Availability Carb conversion pump compatibility Fuel lines (replacing existing rubber with new rubber)
In your area it would be equivalent to me trying to find Diesel fuel in my area. Its around, but you have to be aware of where they are.
But currently if you ever move to a state where it is not available you have to start with square one again.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: HealthServices]
#139655
10/22/08 05:40 PM
10/22/08 05:40 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Quote:
That's why I kind of like the E85 deal. Race fuel octane at below regular fuel prices.
http://e85prices.com/illinois.html
But like I said earlier the biggest problem is
Availability Carb conversion pump compatibility Fuel lines (replacing existing rubber with new rubber)
In your area it would be equivalent to me trying to find Diesel fuel in my area. Its around, but you have to be aware of where they are.
But currently if you ever move to a state where it is not available you have to start with square one again.
Well, I have read a lot, thanks to your links. There are a couple places that sell the fuel, not too far from here. I think they are each less than 8 miles. A guy would just have to check prior to leaving where additional sources might be.
It really does make a lot of sense, especially since I already have the compression.
They sure seem to prefer the Holley configuration, on carbs. I did to, for drag racing. I recently traded off my old race Holley, since I have gotten spoiled to the trouble free operation of my Edelbrock.
In fact, I have a brand new Edelbrock dual four intake, that I have been putting together, just for fun. The E85 would kill that program. It never made much practical sense anyway.
But other than that, I have large metal fuel lines already. Fuel pressure/volume shouldn't be an issue since I have the Carter race pump regulated down.
I would need to eliminate the rubber connection hose from the gas tank to fuel line. The steel braided lines, to the pump and to the carb from the pump, have some kind of plastic in them. So they would probably have to go. Pretty simple stuff, just need about $750 for a carb.
Thanks for the suggestion, seems like it might be worth exploring further! 
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: B3422W5]
#139656
10/22/08 05:43 PM
10/22/08 05:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Quote:
You sound like a guy i would hit it off with perfectly if we ever met
(a little crazy, a little sane, a lot of fun )
Same here! Maybe we will meet up some day, I look forward to it!
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: dgc333]
#139658
10/22/08 07:42 PM
10/22/08 07:42 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
furious
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,615
Table Rock Lake Missouri
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Quote:
E85 is not a good choice for a daily driver though. The cost difference is not enough to make up for the loss in fuel mileage. There is about a 20% cost savings per gallon with E85 but about a 33% loss in fuel mileage.
That part is sure true. This is for my toy, the 68 Barracuda vert. Up until this year, I had only put about 500 miles on it in 4 years.
The e85 is not too much different than when I was racing on methanol. It took almost twice as much.
It would be nice to be able to take it over night, or on a road trip some time though. As it stands now, I would need to put a trailer hitch on, to haul a drum of race fuel. 
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Re: Want to build a pump gas, low compression stroker 360.
[Re: dgc333]
#139659
10/22/08 10:02 PM
10/22/08 10:02 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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True its not worth it for a low compression daily driver, But for a performance car you are not comparing the price of E85 to the cost of regular fuel anymore. You are now comparing it to the cost of race fuel ($8-up) or at the very least the cost of Premium fuel now about $3.50 or the recently when it was $5.00 Or in this case when the car can not run on good pump gas alone? So if you put it in a calculator on this site in the middle of the page. http://e85prices.com/illinois.htmlE85 – $2.75 ---8 miles per gal Let’s just say if you get 20% less gas mileage This mileage could be debatable. Premium fuel – $3.50---- 10 miles per gal E85 wins with 34 cents cost per mile. We can still run full timing and compression ratios as high as 16 to one! What does race fuel run at now? $8 gal. Tell me you are not going to try to enjoy the ride while using race fuel. At 10 mile/gal it cost 80 cents a mile! If you were enjoying it you would be lucky to get 8 miles/gallon so that would cost $1 a mile! If we could drive 1000 miles a year at 8 miles a gallon (at $8) = 125 gals x $8 gal = $1000 Same 1000 miles a year at 8 miles a gallon (at E85's 2.75/gal) = $343 Basically a savings of $656 a year in fuel if you want to compare a year of race fuel vs. a year in E85 E85 Advantages- go anywhere race tune as long as you have access to E85. Runs cooler. Run a wild race setup with high compression and a lot of timing. Maybe even drive your car more because it is more enjoyable. E85 Disadvantage- Cannot go to areas where there is no E85. http://www.illinoisriverenergy.com/illinoislocations.html Cost of conversion. Race fuel advantage- smells good, can say you have to use race fuel to run your car. Run in Race tune. Race fuel disadvantage- can go only as far as the tank will allow you, then maybe retard timing and run crap gas home, Expensive Pump gas advantage- gas just about anywhere. Go anywhere Pump gas disadvantage- must run car retarded (if using the above motor) to run on the street. Car runs hotter. Car would not get good gas mileage running retarded. Motor must be re-built to run best on the pump fuel. Yes you can build a pump gas car, but for it to run nicely you still need to run it on premium fuel, spend a lot of money, and you still may not be able to run full timing unless you don't get on it. But that's not why we have the car is it? My only reason to run E85 is so I do not have to change the car so much to run on pump gas. Put on the old gas carb and with a little tweaking I'm back to where I was before the conversion. Lot of things to weigh.
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