Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139261
10/20/08 08:11 PM
10/20/08 08:11 PM
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Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Quote:
Was the auto electric shop guy wrong about the alternator? Can it cause a overcharge problem on it's own? What other possibilities? Thanks Glenn
1st Q no 2nd Q no. try a jumper wire from the VR body to good ground and do you have another known good(fully charged) battery you could drop in. EDIT if not either then time to grab the VOM & start checking voltage drops while you are running at a fast idle MORE EDIT you picked up a NEW vr
Last edited by RapidRobert; 10/20/08 08:47 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#139262
10/20/08 08:48 PM
10/20/08 08:48 PM
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Actually "Rapid" that may not be correct.
WHAT YEAR is the regulator/ alternator?
If you have the later (70 and later) regulator, IT COULD BE the alternator causing the problem, IE one end of the field could be shorted to ground, or the regulator side brush could have become shorted to ground
If you have the 69 and earlier, it's either the regulator, or a poor ground between the regulator and body OR
poor supply voltage to the regulator (ignition terminal)
FIRST QUESTION: WHAT YEAR is the regulator??? 69/earlier, or '70/ later?
You guys don't want to do this, but---you've replaced the regulator, so it's probably OK
Take a meter----
With the car running at high idle--simulating "low/med cruise"
stab one meter probe DIRECTLY onto the regulator body. Stab the other probe DIRECTLY onto the battery neg. post.
With the car running as above, You want THE LOWEST possible reading, NOT MORE than .5 (1/2) volt, and the less the better. Higher shows poor ground between the regulator/ body/ engine/ battery.
SAME THING with the ignition feed to the regulator.
Stab one probe DIRECTLY onto the batt. pos. post. Stab the other to the ign1 feed to the regulator/ ballast. AGAIN you want the LOWEST possible reading, a few tenths or less NOT MORE that 1/2 (.5) volt at the very most. More than this shows a drop somewhere--corroded wiring, connections, bad bulkhead connector, bad connections at the ign switch, or a bad switch itself. Could be bad connections through the bulkhead going to the ammeter, loose connections to the ammeter itself, or even a bad "permanent" splice in the harness itself--I found this on at least three cars "back in the day"
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139264
10/21/08 12:37 PM
10/21/08 12:37 PM
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Quote:
It's the 72 and up (or square back )alternator. The volt regulator is one I picked up from Napa yesterday for $14. I am assuming it's the 70 and later one. Both screws holding the Volt regulator to the firewall were stripped in the holes. I will work on the ground this evening. If it's not that maybe a new alternator Glenn
We still don't know what you are working on. What year is the car? If the regulator has push on plug, it's the 70/later electronic. If you have one screw connection, you have the older 69/earlier system.
THE ONLY WAY a 70/ later two terminal alternator could cause this problem is if there's a short in one brush or the rotor. The way to check this is to simply pull the field connections off, one at a time. If either one or both STOPS the charge, then it is OK--that shows that the control is at the regulator.
If you have the 69/earlier system, one field terminal will be grounded. That is, the correct early alternator only has one field wire.
Throwing parts at it rarely solves these problems.
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139265
10/21/08 01:23 PM
10/21/08 01:23 PM
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Quote:
THE ONLY WAY a 70/ later two terminal alternator could cause this problem is if there's a short in one brush or the rotor. The way to check this is to simply pull the field connections off, one at a time. If either one or both STOPS the charge, then it is OK--that shows that the control is at the regulator.
If you have the 69/earlier system, one field terminal will be grounded. That is, the correct early alternator only has one field wire.
Throwing parts at it rarely solves these problems.
if the field wire going to the VR (not the system voltage wire) is shorted to ground between the alt and the VR, OR if the VR itself is sending that wire to ground (because of low system voltage or because its faulty), the alt will over charge.
so, if its a 70 or later, theres 2 field wires. one is blue and the other green. the blue is the 12v system voltage. the other is the regulated return that gets regualted to ground in the voltage regulator. At low system voltage, the VR grounds the green wire. at high system voltage, it opens it up (or high resistance).
Get your voltmeter out with the black lead on BATTERY Ground. Meaure the Battery Voltage AT THE BATTERY. Should be 12.5-13.0 or so volts. If its lower than that, charge the battery before you start
What is the battery voltage at the battery?
Then, put the Red voltmeter lead on the blue field wire. It SHOULD read the same as the battery. If its lower, the VR thinks the battery is low and full field the Alt using that green field wire.
What is the voltage at the blue field wire (wrt battery ground)?
If it reads 12.5-13v, the VR should be opening up that other field wire and the alt output should go down. If the alt is charging like crazy, pull the green field wire off the alt- The alt output SHOULD go down. If it does, Its the VR (or that wire is shorted to ground). If it doesnt go down, its the alt
If it reads lower than 12.5V, the VR will try to full field the ALT to increase the output.
make sure the VR case is at ground. use the OHMMETER on the meter to check it wrt to battery negative (-). A bad ground on the VR makes the VR think the system voltage is lower than it really is and will try and up the field voltage but because there is additional resistance between the VR and real ground, it cant full feild the alt so the alt wont charge correctly.
you need a good ground at the VR case
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139268
10/22/08 07:01 AM
10/22/08 07:01 AM
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ok, its starting to come back to me.... if you have a voltage drop at the ballast, you probably have a voltage drop at the VR as well. the most likely culprit is the bulkhead connector. as tese cars age, the connectors get oxidized and/or corroded and that cause resitance which will drop the voltage as the resistance increases. as the system voltage drops, the VR thinks you need a charge, so it tells the alt to kick it up a notch. check the voltage at the battery. and then, Check the voltage at the Fuse block under the dask on the BAT spade terminal. then check it at the blue wire at the VR. When you check it at the VR, check it with the blck meter lead on the battery - terminal and then try it with the black lead on the case of the VR (that will tell you if the VR is grounded well enough)
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139270
10/22/08 07:32 AM
10/22/08 07:32 AM
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139272
10/22/08 12:09 PM
10/22/08 12:09 PM
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try those same reading with the ballast resistor disconnected (that same blue wire will feed the ballast and the coil)
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139275
10/22/08 08:35 PM
10/22/08 08:35 PM
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so that tells me you probably have some resistance in your wiring between the battery and the VR. most likely at the bulkhead connector.
the reason I can say this is because when you have the coil connected (when the ballast is hooked up), the coil loads the system and draws current. The resistance in the wiring causes a voltage drop. thats why when you disconnect the coil, the voltage at the VR reads the same as the battery (the meter does not draw current- it is high impedance and looks invisible to the system).
basically, the bad connections you have act like a resistor and is dropping your system voltage.
when the car is running (ballast and VR hooked up) what is the voltage at the Blue wire at the VR?
also, the .5 difference in voltage tells me your battery probably needs a charge. it shouldnt drop half a volt with no load other than the harness hooked up. Use a charger and slow charge your battery. it may be bad. can you have it tested?
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139276
10/22/08 08:39 PM
10/22/08 08:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Glen you need to have the eng running at a fast idle to check for voltage drops. With no current flowing high resistances(if present) do not restrict anything.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: RapidRobert]
#139277
10/22/08 08:52 PM
10/22/08 08:52 PM
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the reason I had him disconnect the coil at the ballast and check the voltage at the VR, was to see if maybe there was something ELSE drawing current and dragging down the voltage.
Since the voltage came back up with the coil disconnected, I kinda halffast checked for other drains on the system
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139279
10/23/08 06:53 AM
10/23/08 06:53 AM
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the first place i'd start is with a new battery. if its fried, it will throw everything off. internal resistances will create voltage drops that will be telling your charging system to charge.
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139281
10/23/08 07:12 AM
10/23/08 07:12 AM
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139283
10/23/08 11:44 AM
10/23/08 11:44 AM
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you need to find where the drop is coming from. it has to be some where there is a connction. eith the starter relay on the fender, the fusable link may be bad (resistive but not open), the bulkhead connectors, eyc. just get a schematic and trace the wire from the VR back to the battery.
a way to check to make sure Im not sending you on a wild goose chase is to rig up a jumper to the Blue wire. start the car and watch it over charge, then connect it staright to the battery post (so you eliminate ALL the connections). if the charging goes down to normal, you know the cars wiring has a bad connection somewhere. the trick is finding it.
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139284
10/23/08 05:17 PM
10/23/08 05:17 PM
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Crocker
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Update: Cucu, I stripped off a little insulation off the blue wire a couple inches below the VR plug and spliced a jumper wire to the stripped blue wire. The jumper wire was a heavy stranded wire to minimize voltage drop. Anyway the voltage is 15.1 volts through the normal bulkhead circuit and 14.9 volts through the jumper. I was expecting a bigger drop... Should the voltage be between 13 and 14? I pulled each field wire off the Alt, one at a time and voltage dropped from 15.1 to 12.9. What do you think? Could it be a problem in the new harness?
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139285
10/23/08 05:43 PM
10/23/08 05:43 PM
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yes, the voltage should be 13-14v. but right now your battery is at 12something so it may be trying to charge the battery.
when I go home tonight. I'll put a meter on mine and tell you what Im getting. In the meanwhile. put a battery charger on your battery and charge it up for a while making sure you dont dump too many amp into it (limit the charger to 10 amps max)
you may have just a weak battery causing the alt to push out some volts or the Voltage regulator may be bad.
in the meanwhile take out a bolt on the VR and make a ground strap to make sure you have a good ground.
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139286
10/23/08 07:43 PM
10/23/08 07:43 PM
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ok, im home and i made some measurements. car hasnt been started in a week.
With the engine off, Ign off i get (all measurements made with the voltmeter neg lead on the batt neg post)
V @ batt = 12.5v V @ alt out = 12.5v (notice it is the same as the voltage at the battery. it should be) V @ Alt Blue field = 0v (it should be 0v cause ign is off)
With the Ign ON but the car not running, I get
V @ Batt = 12.4v V @ alt = 11.92V (The load from the ign plus the resistance of wiring is pulling down the batt voltage slightly. thats normal) V @ Alt Blue Field = 11.2 v (no comment)
With the Ign ON, and Car running at 600 rpm
V @ batt = 14.11 v (alt is charging the batt) V @ alt out = 14.3 V (alt voltage is slightly higher than Batt cause of wiring reistance between alt and batt. its normal) V @ Alt Blue Field = 13.8V (since the alt field (ie, the ign voltage, is 13.8v, , the VR will charge slightly but not too much. just enough to maintain the battery and run the car stuff)
With the car at 1400 rpm, the V @ alt Bleue Field is 14.0 (its still maintaining. not overcharging).
Turn car off
V @ batt = 13.2 V immediately and decays down to 12.7v after a beer or two.
v @
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
[Re: Crocker]
#139287
10/23/08 07:49 PM
10/23/08 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Cucu Et Al: Ok, I ran home lunch time and checked a few things. With the ignition in the run position but the car not running, I have: 12.5 v battery pos to battery ground
thats ok. matches mine
Quote:
11.3 v VR blue wire female connector (disconnected from VR)to batt ground 11.3 v Alt blue wire (disconnected from alt) to batt ground 10.2 v Alt blue wire (connected to alt) to batt ground.
this is slightly lower than me. I had 11.2 wit hthe wire connected to the alt, ign on, car not running.
The VR is probably bad and sending the green wire to ground. thats why the voltage looks good with the blue wire disconnected and low when its connected to the alt.
get a new VR, and try it. MAKE SURE you have a GOOD ground between the VR's CASE and the FIREWALL (use sandpaper to clean up some metal on each.
I think this will fix it.
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139288
10/23/08 10:07 PM
10/23/08 10:07 PM
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Hi, guys, I've had some 'puter problems and haven't been following this. Cuco has given you some EXCELLENT advice. It almost sounds to me like that as you've been moving/ wiggling stuff, etc, you may have "made" a bad connection better.
I CANNOT STRESS ENOUGH both cucu and myself, the advice we've given re: checking voltage drops, that is voltage loss UNDER LOAD through various wires/ connections, etc.
The firewall/ bulkhead connections on these cars have become just about the no1 suspect.
and one last time YOU CAN NOT check a regulator ground with an ohmeter. That is because current causes voltage drop over resistance called "ohms law" Let's say you have ONE TEN TH just ONE TENTH of an ohm resistance between the battery negative (post) and the regulator case. With some 60 amps (or more) ohms law says thus:
I (current in amps) = E (voltage) / R (resistance)
Transposing, E = I x R
so Voltage = 60 amps X .1 ohms
You now have SIX VOLTS DROP over that one tenth of an ohm
The point? You can measure the voltage drop under load, but YOU CAN NOT measure one tenth of an ohm with common meters.
Additionally, many drop problems are through corroded/ intermittent connections, which do not show up until heated up and loaded under current.
One more last point. YOU CAN NOT check high-amperage diodes in alternators with an ohmeter, even ones with a "diode check" feature.
YOU MUST check high current rectifiers by running considerable current--10-30 amps through them, and once, again, checking the voltage drop!!!!
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139289
10/23/08 10:29 PM
10/23/08 10:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050 Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
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Re: 15 + volts at the battery??
#139290
10/24/08 08:03 AM
10/24/08 08:03 AM
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Crocker
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Thanks '440sixpack, cucu et al. Your help is much appreciated. I plan on bypassing the bulkhead connector on the high current wires and will make sure the Voltage regulator is grounded. Is there a test to check a VR for proper function. Funny thing is I worked as an electrican for a couple years and spent two years in school studying electrical construction. That was 1981 when I was 21. I am used to a white neutral wire to complete circuits. Glenn
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