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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137056
10/15/08 11:15 PM
10/15/08 11:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072
Niles , Ohio
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Just put them in my 65.I got about 3.5 degrees.I installed all 3 and I could still use some more caster.My camber is just about perfect at .5 positive.Caster is 1.25 neg as its a manual steering.It handles great.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137058
10/16/08 12:37 AM
10/16/08 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 752
AZ - The "dry heat" state
71autoxr
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 752
AZ - The "dry heat" state
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I have them (all 4) and was able to get 3+ pos caster. There is a trick to installation install front bushing with hole "away" from the tire, and the rear bushing with the hole "towards" the tire. Part #'s are NAPA 267-1367 or MOOG K-7103. Good luck.
68 AMX mopars red headed stepchild
69 Dart GT Convertible 340 4 speed
71 Challenger - looks like the avatar!
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: 71autoxr]
#137059
10/16/08 01:11 AM
10/16/08 01:11 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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I got around 5 deg pos caster with .8 to 1.0 deg neg camber. With .5 deg neg camber I could get over 5 deg pos caster, maybe reach 6 deg pos caster. But I wanted 1.5 degree neg camber  so I could only end up with 4.3/4.4 deg pos caster. Key here is finding an alignment guy that is willing to put in a little extra effort and understands what he is doing. Before final alignment with only .8/1.0 neg camber. 
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#137061
10/16/08 06:38 AM
10/16/08 06:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072
Niles , Ohio
therocks
oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
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oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,072
Niles , Ohio
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Yeah i meant 4.I had a ton of neg caster.That and I have RMS adjustable strut rods.That can get you a bit of caster.I do my own alignments at work so I knew where my settings were.Its a pain but I had all new chassis under the 65.Rocky
Chrysler Firepower
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: 440PURSUIT]
#137065
10/16/08 09:25 PM
10/16/08 09:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Missouri, U.S.A.
JSSuperbee
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Missouri, U.S.A.
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The instructions in the box are WRONG! As outlined above by Autoxcuda.....don't use the instructions in the box. Also, Moog(and their parent company) won't answer questions about this error. I found out the hard way.
James Stinebaker
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: JSSuperbee]
#137066
10/16/08 09:54 PM
10/16/08 09:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
The instructions in the box are WRONG! As outlined above by Autoxcuda.....don't use the instructions in the box. Also, Moog(and their parent company) won't answer questions about this error. I found out the hard way.
The instructions are not wrong. We are just using the parts for another purpose.
The part is originally designed for rusted or accident damaged cars that have the upper shock towers bent in. So the bushings theoretically just push the shock towers back out to get factory alignment.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137067
10/16/08 09:57 PM
10/16/08 09:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Thanks for all of the info on this topic. The Moog offset bushing showed up today from Rock Auto. They came with two "ferrules" per bushing. It looks like you press the bushings into the control arms first then press the ferrules onto the bushing next. Does that sound right? I'm going to install them as Rick Ehrenberg recommends. With the rear bushing arrow pointing inboard and the front bushing pointing outboard.
I've never installed those ferrules. There was not room for them to be install between the frame slots. The non offest bushing do not have ferrules and they are the same thickness.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: jsully]
#137069
10/16/08 10:33 PM
10/16/08 10:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
I am also buying the Moog offset bushings (70 Challenger). I have read two or three threads on this and am (again / still) confused as to the way the offset is installed.
I had planned to put both sides (all four) with the arrow toward the ball joint.
Correct??
Point the arrows per this diagram
So the front bushing in the A-arm has the arrow pointed out.
The rear bushing in the A-arm has the arrow pointing in.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137071
10/17/08 12:09 AM
10/17/08 12:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Now I'm confused about using or not using the ferrules. I compared the length of the offset bushing and it is about 3/16" shorter that the non-offset ones. So the ferrules I assume will make up the difference when the are added. When I looked closely at a standard non-offset bushing it actually has a ferrule already pressed into it on both sides. It is just that the diameter is smaller that the loose ones that come with the offset bushings.
If it will slide into your chassis with the ferrules, use them.
I think mine were just pulled in over the years. My particular car didn't have room for ferrules.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137072
10/17/08 09:48 AM
10/17/08 09:48 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,727
Florida
BDW
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,727
Florida
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I didn't get it initially so I updated the info.
Last edited by cnxt; 10/17/08 09:49 AM.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#137074
10/17/08 10:57 PM
10/17/08 10:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Missouri, U.S.A.
JSSuperbee
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 328
Missouri, U.S.A.
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The instructions that came in the box I purchased from Moog indicate that all arrows are to point in the same direction. That's wrong according to your diagram, and your diagram is correct.
James Stinebaker
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137077
10/18/08 11:43 AM
10/18/08 11:43 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 267
Arizona
jsully
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 267
Arizona
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Quote:
Well I installed the offset bushings in the arms today, but I only replaced the front bushings with a offset ones and left the rear ones along. The reason was that I received a PM from another member hear telling me that if you install the rear ones with the arrow pointing inward the outer edge of the control arm will hit the inner fender. I took one of the offset bushing and slipped over the eccentric adjuster bolt installed in it's rear position and when I turned the arrow inward the outer edge of the bushing was almost hitting the inner fender. So it sure looks like if you press the rear offset bushing in with the arrow pointing inward you will have an interference problem. If that is true, then I don't see any valve in using them the the rear position.
Please let me know if you get the alignment numbers you were after. This was concern was mentioned on an earlier thread.
If you do, this is good info!
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137080
10/22/08 11:49 PM
10/22/08 11:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Last update:
I pressed in the other two offset bushings in the rear and reinstalled the upper control arms. For a test, I adjusted the cams so the the rear of the arms were all the way in and the front of the arms were all the way out. There was no interference between the rear of the arm and the inner fender when I moved the arm through it's travel. Since the car is put away for the winter, I won't be able to get the front end alignment done until spring of next year. It looks like I should be able to get plenty of positive caster now.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137082
10/23/08 12:44 AM
10/23/08 12:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
autoxcuda, how much positive caster are you running and what was the driving results? Is the steering effort much harder that before?
I have power steering. It's a mopar part remanufactured box I bought in 1993.
Not hard to turn at all. I even have a smaller 15" LaCarra steering wheel (stock IIRC is 17"). Steering wheel diameter is part of the leverage in the system.
I rebuilt the suspension not much after I got the car in '93 with most all the handling goodies I have now including the offset bushings. I've always had over 3 degrees of positive caster.
Current alignment is....
4.4 postive caster
1.5 negative camber
1/16" toe in
I really upped the camber this time. I've done, .5, .75, and 1 deg neg since 1993. I've always worn the outsides edges  . So I gave 1.5 neg camber a try. I think the increase this time, really made for a crisp "turn in" at speed. Like very quickly changing lanes on the freeway at 70 mph getting the tire to squeak a little
All that with stock upper control arms BTW.
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137084
10/23/08 01:28 AM
10/23/08 01:28 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
autoxcuda, thanks for the input. I'm shooting for:
+2.5 degs. caster
-1/2 deg. camber
1/16" to 1/8" toe in.
I got these specs. from Rick Ehrenberg.
Do you have manual or power steering?
What size front tires do you have on it?
I'd go another degree of positve caster to 3.5 degrees postive. Gives you some camber gain when cornering too. Is it your daily driver? What's your realistic milage per year?
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Re: Who has installed Moog offset upper cont. arm bushings?
[Re: rarefish]
#137086
10/23/08 02:20 AM
10/23/08 02:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
It's a 68 Charger with power steering. The tires are 225-70-15" red wall radials on all 4 corners. I'm was just looking to improve the straight line stability. Right now I think the car has like 1/2 deg positive caster and it wanders some when you are driving in a straight line on the highway also the steering wheel is slow to return to center coming out of a turn.
Caster it up! The camber will help too. Being in New York and looking at the car, I'm wild guessing you put under 5K miles on it a year (I could be wrong though). But with under 5K miles a year, I'd go a little more aggressive with the alignment.
In the scheme of things, you're going to wear the tires out in 8 year instead of 10 years. Why not enjoy those 8 years of driving a little more?
BTW 5K/year is averaging 96 miles each one of the 52 weeks a year.
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