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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136257
10/14/08 02:49 PM
10/14/08 02:49 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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yes the ballist res could be bad coil could be bad I used the pertronix unit that replaces the points and have not had to change the pertronix rotor yet,just a new cap now and then I guted the porcilin shell of a ballest res and solderd the ends on a piece of #10 stranded wire to hind the fact it was bypassed you by pass it to give the pertronix the full 12 volts and it has lots of fire with the 40,000 volt pertronix coil easy hook up red to + and black to - side of coil with the one key wire that is on the coil now with you points this was on the 68 Dart,another good upgrade is one of the newer soild state voltage regulaters,it was way better and the lights did not go dim when at idle and lights on I tell you this cause I changed points for 2yrs every 2-3 months with that old car till I replaced it now I have had that same set up in 3 diff cars and 9 yrs with out ever a problem 
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136262
10/14/08 03:11 PM
10/14/08 03:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
Andrewh
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
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Well, by putting in the petronix, you eliminate 2 out of 4 things being bad.
Basically you take out points and the balast being your problem.
The two remaining are the coil and power, which breaks down to two things.
You have key on power in run. That should read 12 volts on one side and around 8 volts on the other of the ballast.
You also have start power which should bypass the ballast and read 12 volts on the coil side when you are turning the key to start the car.
So if you put in the petronix, and the car still doesn't start, then all you have to check is voltage. If there is voltage, then you have a bad coil.
If you try to fix the points, then you have to verify the points aren't burnt out.
That they gap is set correctly, then figure out if the coil or ballast is dead.
Assuming you have voltage at both run and start.
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Andrewh]
#136264
10/14/08 03:23 PM
10/14/08 03:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
Sssnake383
OP
Old and boring
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OP
Old and boring
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
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Quote:
Well, by putting in the petronix, you eliminate 2 out of 4 things being bad.
Basically you take out points and the balast being your problem.
The two remaining are the coil and power, which breaks down to two things.
You have key on power in run. That should read 12 volts on one side and around 8 volts on the other of the ballast.
You also have start power which should bypass the ballast and read 12 volts on the coil side when you are turning the key to start the car.
So if you put in the petronix, and the car still doesn't start, then all you have to check is voltage. If there is voltage, then you have a bad coil.
If you try to fix the points, then you have to verify the points aren't burnt out.
That they gap is set correctly, then figure out if the coil or ballast is dead.
Assuming you have voltage at both run and start.
I don't want to compound my problems. I would like to fix the points, that way - if I screw up installing the Pertronix - at least I know where to start. Thank you for explaining what to test for at the resistor. I will try that tonight, hopefully. So, if the ballast checks good with KEY ON run 12v incoming and about 8v outgoing, the next thing to check is voltage at the coil with the key on start. I'm looking for 12v at the coil? If then I take the cap off and check out the points and they look good (no pitting or blackened areas), what next? Condemn the ignition coil?
Thanks for your help. I am feeling a bit better about tackling this.
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136266
10/14/08 03:30 PM
10/14/08 03:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,757
Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,757
Rio Linda, CA
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The "key on" voltage check won't tell you much because the normal RUN circuit is shut off during the start cycle.
On your ballast you will find a double blue wire on one side and a blue/brown on the opposite side. The double blue should have battery voltage only when the key is in the RUN position and the blue/brown should have battery voltage only when the key is in the START position.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136267
10/14/08 03:31 PM
10/14/08 03:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
Andrewh
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
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Nope can't say it is the coil yet.
You can check the cap and rotor next, and just for kiss, make sure the rotor spins when trying to start the car. Have heard of that, but not seen it. The cap and rotor would only stop or inhibit some firing. Like a miss. Unless it was cracked or the top was missing, you should still get spark.
You can check for spark at the coil to be sure.
Pull the coil wire instead of a plug wire.
Next up look at the points themselves. Make sure they are opening and closing and the ends are not gone. Though honestly the petronix conversion is so simple, it really took me 15 min to do, I would do that. But if you are stuck on trouble shooting points thats fine.
If the points are not burned away, and are opening and closing, and the distributer is turning, then I would try replacing the coil first.
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: John_Kunkel]
#136269
10/14/08 03:43 PM
10/14/08 03:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
Sssnake383
OP
Old and boring
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OP
Old and boring
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
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Quote:
The "key on" voltage check won't tell you much because the normal RUN circuit is shut off during the start cycle.
On your ballast you will find a double blue wire on one side and a blue/brown on the opposite side. The double blue should have battery voltage only when the key is in the RUN position and the blue/brown should have battery voltage only when the key is in the START position.
This is different then what I just read from the other posters. So, how do I go about checking the ballast? Just see if voltage exists on the double blue wire side when key is on RUN position...and then verify voltage on the blue/brown wire side with key in START position?
I am getting confused again...
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Andrewh]
#136271
10/14/08 04:07 PM
10/14/08 04:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
Sssnake383
OP
Old and boring
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OP
Old and boring
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,037
The New Jersey Hinterlands
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Quote:
we are saying the same thing. John just pointed out something I forgot.
If you test in run, you should get the voltages I described.
But you are not really testing the problem.
Since your car won't start, you need to verify voltage in START, while the car is cranking over.
The coil side then should read 12 volts.
This is actually bypassing your balast resistor, so it has nothing to do with your no start problem.
OKAY, I see what you guys are saying. So the ballast resistor is not my problem, because the START circuit bypasses it. The RUN circuit uses the ballast to step down voltage so it won't burn up my points. The coil side (of the ballast) needs to read 12v with the key in the START position (car is cranking). Do I have the idea? If the coil side measures 12v (and points check out) then out comes the coil. If the coil side does NOT read 12v, then my problem is...ignition switch or firewall bulkhead. Is this correct?
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136277
10/14/08 04:51 PM
10/14/08 04:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
Andrewh
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 8,671
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Quote:
Thank you, Andrewh. I do appreciate your help. I may need your guidance again when I go to install my Pertronix kit. Do you retain the ballast resistor when you install the Pertronix? Or do you bypass it entirely? Perhaps break out the ceramic resistance wire and then wire it terminal-to-terminal to keep the OE look, such as a previous poster did?
Unless you buy their coil or a 12 volt coil, you need to keep the ballast resistor. It is needed for the coil.
You just run 12 volts to the petronix though "bypassing" the ballast.
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136278
10/14/08 04:51 PM
10/14/08 04:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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The absolute best way to set point gap is with a dwell meter. Using a feeler gauge is just a guide.
Dwell meters used to be really cheap like less than $30. But now with electronic systems around not many cars driving have them so stores don't really have a need to stock them.
Points systems work They have worked for years but there is maintenance with them.
Are you trying to just get the car started or change over to a new system?
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136279
10/14/08 04:55 PM
10/14/08 04:55 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
scratchnfotraction
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 15,487
Florida
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if you gut the balist res and just use the shell,it would be best to solder the ends on the #10 stranded wire to make a good connection  since this is an old cast iron duel point dist I would pull it and see if it has side to side movment if it does it will need rebuilt,the shaft wobble is common but like said not the rule when trouble shooting and you may check into finding a diff dist and go to single points,then pertronix pertronix may have a duel pick up conversion also so check with them or a dealer good luck and update us when you find your problem 
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Re: Can someone explain...(I'm an idiot)
[Re: Sssnake383]
#136282
10/20/08 11:43 AM
10/20/08 11:43 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
moper
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 12,675
Columbia, CT
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Just for future use...
To answer how they work.. All inductive ignition coil ignition systems work this way:
You have a primary side, consisting of battery, ignition switch, ballast, coil, points, and condensor; and a secondary side consisting of the coil, wires, distributor cap and rotor, and spark plugs. The battery supplies the power. The ballast lowers the power down so the coil and points themselves do not overheat and be damaged. The power comes into the coil on it's positive side from the ballast/battery, and energizes a set of windings in it. The points connect the primary windings in the coil to the ground side. As the rubbing block spins, the corners force the points open, which breaks the circuit. As that circuit is broken, the electrical field in the coil primary windings collapses. There is a second set of windings inside a coil, called the secondary set. As the field collapses around this second set, a huge amount of energy is "induced" into them. They are connected to the coil tower, and the coil wire, and down stream of the distributor cap and rotor are the wires and spark plugs. So the spark of the secondary, is generated by the collapse of the primary. The points control the length of time the primary is closed and the coil primary windings are "charging". This is why if you leave your key on, and the ballast bypassed, the coil gets so hot. Also why MP Gold boxes say "not for street use".. They put a lot of juice the the coil primary windings 100% of the time. The point gap, or more precisely the dwell(the length of time in crank degrees), is the amount of time the secondary has to induce the spark. I use the shortest dwell spec I can (28°) so the coil has the most time to charge the primary windings. That ".010 gap" usually gives about 32° of dwell.
All inductive ignitions do this in one way or another. If you knwo how points work, you know how MSD, MP, FBO, Accell, Pertronix, Mallory, Jacobs, and anyone I missed ignitions work...
Well, art is art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And east is east and west is west and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know.
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